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[ENTP] My theory that explains why ENTP's like to argue so much

The Great One

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Okay, so it's no big secret that ENTP's are one of the most argumentative types out there. However, I've been trying to understand why we as ENTP's like to argue so damn much, and I believe that I have come up with an answer. I was looking at this thread on personality cafe started by the user "ENFPleasantly" and starting looking at how Fi manifests itself in the ENFP....

[ENFP] The phases of an ENFP: growth

Basically the article states that Fi beliefs are a source of major strength for the ENFP. In fact, the stronger the Fi user believes in something, the stronger they will fight for it. Beliefs and values for Fi users almost remind me the story of "The Three Little Pigs". Something that the Fi user barely believes in is almost like the straw house that the three little pigs built: It will provide mild resistance, but it's not that hard to make it crumble to the ground. If the ENFP has a mild belief in something, then they will provide an okay resistance to something, and it will be harder to make it crumble, but will a little force their wood house may crumble. However, when an Fi user has a very strong belief in something, it's almost like a brick fortress is built in their minds: nothing can stand in the way of this belief and penetrating through it would be like trying to penetrate an actual brick wall.

So I was thinking about this, and I believe that a similar principle can be applied to the Ti function in ENTP's. For Ti users, understanding things, defining things, and figuring out how they work is key. It is absolutely essential for ENTP's to understand things, and they dedicate a lot of time to this practice. Now when another individual challenges an ENTP's understanding of something, and says that they are wrong on an issue, they get very defensive and often argue their point very aggressively. The reason being again, is because understanding is so important to them. Now I believe that Ti's understanding is just like Fi's beliefs and values: The more time that an ENTP has dedicated to understanding something, and the more thorough understanding they have come to on an issue, on a thing, or whatever, the more aggressively they will argue for it.

What do you think of my theory?
 

Winds of Thor

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Okay, so it's no big secret that ENTP's are one of the most argumentative types out there. However, I've been trying to understand why we as ENTP's like to argue so damn much, and I believe that I have come up with an answer. I was looking at this thread on personality cafe started by the user "ENFPleasantly" and starting looking at how Fi manifests itself in the ENFP....

http://personalitycafe.com/enfp-articles/91932-phases-enfp-growth.html

Basically the article states that Fi beliefs are a source of major strength for the ENFP. In fact, the stronger the Fi user believes in something, the stronger they will fight for it. Beliefs and values for Fi users almost remind me the story of "The Three Little Pigs". Something that the Fi user barely believes in is almost like the straw house that the three little pigs built: It will provide mild resistance, but it's not that hard to make it crumble to the ground. If the ENFP has a mild belief in something, then they will provide an okay resistance to something, and it will be harder to make it crumble, but will a little force their wood house may crumble. However, when an Fi user has a very strong belief in something, it's almost like a brick fortress is built in their minds: nothing can stand in the way of this belief and penetrating through it would be like trying to penetrate an actual brick wall.

So I was thinking about this, and I believe that a similar principle can be applied to the Ti function in ENTP's. For Ti users, understanding things, defining things, and figuring out how they work is key. It is absolutely essential for ENTP's to understand things, and they dedicate a lot of time to this practice. Now when another individual challenges an ENTP's understanding of something, and says that they are wrong on an issue, they get very defensive and often argue their point very aggressively. The reason being again, is because understanding is so important to them. Now I believe that Ti's understanding is just like Fi's beliefs and values: The more time that an ENTP has dedicated to understanding something, and the more thorough understanding they have come to on an issue, on a thing, or whatever, the more aggressively they will argue for it.

What do you think of my theory?
I think you need to reassess your sexuality lol jk. I kid only. Umm, yea well, this theory you say makes a lot of sense. And I'll add as ENTPs are visionaries...that tied to their desire to understand all things, if they understand something clearly, then it's probably going to be based in objectivity. And with that strong intellectual understanding, might work hard utilizing Ne and Ti to share or clarify the vision.

sounds like the sunken cost fallacy.

Like as with hoarders?
 

RaptorWizard

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Well I'm probably not ENTP, but anyway, I think of arguments as a refiner's fire that really test the structure of a thing and mold it to remove impurities until the properties of perfection emerge. It urges us to challenge things and make them better. Alternatively, I don't believe arguments should be used to gain an advantage over somebody, nor should they be used to erect barriers. The purpose should be constructive, not damaging.
 
S

Society

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maybe the sunken cost can be explained by our ego's? I've noted in the past that FJs tend to have a moral-identity (and are offended when its threatened), perhaps we have an intellectual one? maybe someone counter arguing our reasoning is on some level threatening to some deeply ingrained beliefs about our intellectual competence, a belief so ingrained in the Ti-judger mental development that we might not even pay it any attention, rather instead, we take it so much for granted that we put it in the background.
to put my new theory on the table, think about what the habit of arguing implies: by doing so, by probing around the argument in the dance of Ti, we are essentially assuming that we can understand any reasoning, that there is no software too resource-heavy for our hardware to comprehend, no file too heavily encrypted for us to process.

it's like a silent hubris in the background:
"roses are red, the sky is blue, and i'm a freaking genius"
 

tanstaafl28

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I don't have to be right all the time, in fact, I often learn more when I'm wrong. I think we're sophists. We will take whatever side we think gives us the the advantage, not to be right, but to learn better counter-arguments we haven't thought up yet. What is more effecient and elegant than getting others to argue with us for the purposes of testing out our arguments so we can improve them?
 

Lexicon

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@ the OP-



This explains it all.
 
S

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What is more effecient and elegant than getting others to argue with us for the purposes of testing out our arguments so we can improve them?

there's a saying in hebrew - "a knife is best sharpened by the blade of another"

but there's more to it then simply becoming a better arguer - i've found myself changing my opinions and views again and again through good arguments, the more a possibility gets exposed to the bashing of counter arguments and seemingly survives, the more i trust it to be closer to the truth - and when i failed to break someone else's, i will adopt it.
 

tanstaafl28

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there's a saying in hebrew - "a knife is best sharpened by the blade of another"

but there's more to it then simply becoming a better arguer - i've found myself changing my opinions and views again and again through good arguments, the more a possibility gets exposed to the bashing of counter arguments and seemingly survives, the more i trust it to be closer to the truth - and when i failed to break someone else's, i will adopt it.

No doubt it's a refinement process.
 

SpankyMcFly

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I once had an ENTP neighbor who I talked to a lot. We could talk for hours about nothing and sometimes, something, but never really arriving anywhere. He was a most excellent devils advocate. He was mid 50s, bachelors in math and chemistry, with a career background in real estate... :blink: Here is my take on his particular need to argue.

Something would interest him. Think of it as a point. Before he could accept it he would have to circle the point, in his mind. Gather information and test thoughts out. I imagine this to be traveling in a circle around the object of interest. As he was circling the object he'd go off on tangents, forming another circle. Think of a fractal. Eventually he'd arrive at a conclusion, close the tangent and continue his circling. He would become very obsessive about this object after time. Very consuming of his time/energy. Eventually he'd arrive at a conclusion about the object of interest. At this point he'd lose almost complete interest. Another shiny has drawn his attention. and besides he now "understands" the object.

It is during this test thoughts out and circling that he would solicit opinions and while doing so make you prove him wrong, which he didn't mind, he actually liked that (usually), since he could close a tangent/circle and continue searching for understanding of this object of interest. He'd argue, but not for arguments sake, but rather, to get to the bottom of the matter, when he was focused.

He is some sorta theist (non denominational) ftr, me, I'm an atheist and we'd "talk" for hours on the subject. Quite enjoyable. He is no longer my neighbor and I miss those long talks about the world we live in.

Vaya con dios Paul! hehe
 

1487610420

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Shitty theory.

Arguing for the sake of it is an indication of immaturity and not limited to ENTPs. If the other party can actually offer intellectual insight and help fostering exploring pov's regardless of taking sides can be interesting and addictive [ like a dopamine source] but that requires/implies reciprocity in drive/skill/enjoyment.
 

skylights

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Ne doms gather information through external engagement, and we like to take up potentially-useful ideas, try them on, stretch them, bend them, and otherwise play with them in the process of integrating them into our conceptual schema, so of course engaging with others is a good way to do that. ENTPs have stronger T than F, making refining logic more important than harmonizing. It seems to follow naturally that ENTPs would be a bit argumentative, and almost always in a very playful way. Tension points are where knowledge is debated and truth is revealed.

tantastaafl28 said:
What is more effecient and elegant than getting others to argue with us for the purposes of testing out our arguments so we can improve them?

Yeah, that. Devil's advocacy.
 

EcK

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there's a saying in hebrew - "a knife is best sharpened by the blade of another"
I suspect its also found in homoerotic literature.
 

The Great One

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I think you need to reassess your sexuality lol jk. I kid only. Umm, yea well, this theory you say makes a lot of sense. And I'll add as ENTPs are visionaries...that tied to their desire to understand all things, if they understand something clearly, then it's probably going to be based in objectivity. And with that strong intellectual understanding, might work hard utilizing Ne and Ti to share or clarify the vision.



Like as with hoarders?

Well thank you sir.

Well I'm probably not ENTP, but anyway, I think of arguments as a refiner's fire that really test the structure of a thing and mold it to remove impurities until the properties of perfection emerge. It urges us to challenge things and make them better. Alternatively, I don't believe arguments should be used to gain an advantage over somebody, nor should they be used to erect barriers. The purpose should be constructive, not damaging.

maybe the sunken cost can be explained by our ego's? I've noted in the past that FJs tend to have a moral-identity (and are offended when its threatened), perhaps we have an intellectual one? maybe someone counter arguing our reasoning is on some level threatening to some deeply ingrained beliefs about our intellectual competence, a belief so ingrained in the Ti-judger mental development that we might not even pay it any attention, rather instead, we take it so much for granted that we put it in the background.
to put my new theory on the table, think about what the habit of arguing implies: by doing so, by probing around the argument in the dance of Ti, we are essentially assuming that we can understand any reasoning, that there is no software too resource-heavy for our hardware to comprehend, no file too heavily encrypted for us to process.

it's like a silent hubris in the background:
"roses are red, the sky is blue, and i'm a freaking genius"

there's a saying in hebrew - "a knife is best sharpened by the blade of another"

but there's more to it then simply becoming a better arguer - i've found myself changing my opinions and views again and again through good arguments, the more a possibility gets exposed to the bashing of counter arguments and seemingly survives, the more i trust it to be closer to the truth - and when i failed to break someone else's, i will adopt it.


Ok this makes a lot of sense that we argue as a refinement process: we argue in order to come to a greater understanding of something. I remember that I was reading about Socrates (ENTP) who would literally walk around the streets purposefully trying to start arguments with people, just to obtain new knowledge through arguing. However, there has to be something more to this as well though, because I've often noticed that ENTP's tend to argue things tooth and bone even if they know in their hearts that they may be wrong about something. Argumentation is not only seen as a tool for greater understanding but also a battle of intellects: the ENTP's intellect vs. the other person's intellect, and I know that if there is one thing that ENTP's hate, it is to look like a fool intellectually.
 

guesswho

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I know someone who likes to argue a lot but is clearly not entp.

How do you explain that ?
 
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