[INTJ] Ask an INTJ

[InvisibleJim]

The correct answer is probably "it is neither, it is neutral." (Sigh, this is why I like INTPs more than INTJs.)

So, do you believe that optimism is always unrealistic, or is it possible that both optimism and realism can coexist in the same plane together at least some of the time?

Hmm, this may be time for a Venn Diagram!

Erratic Optimisim + Erratic Pessimism does not Realism make.

As you say, you are an optimist; therefore anyone who is realistic or pessimistic appears pessimistic to you.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Erratic Optimisim + Erratic Pessimism does not Realism make.

As you say, you are an optimist; therefore anyone who is realistic or pessimistic appears pessimistic to you.

I dislike you. Mocking the Venn Diagrams! I Venn Diagrams! (almost wrote I VD there... )

Also, I get that realism =/= pessimism. And realism is appreciated by me because well, that's what NTs are usually good at. I just think sometimes it would behoove us all to be a little more than what we are. I need to be a bit more realistic at times, but I think you Realists need to be a bit more optimisitc at times too.

Would it be a good mix to be optimistically realistic?

 

[InvisibleJim]

Would it be a good mix to be optimistically realistic?

No, this is how NFPs rope INTJs, with promises of unlikely great things. I'm old and wise enough to know that

I dislike you.

No you don't

 

[Nicodemus]

So...you think the person is incompetant?

At least in some regard, yes.

 

[Coriolis]

I agree with your friend that one's success is not certain, but for me, focusing on future accomplishments is really focusing on how to get there. It is all calcuated risk. This is still heartening, though, because it engages my mind in what it does best, and actively involves me in things I can control, at least to some degree.

I understand the need for realism, but is it realistic to always be looking at everything that can go wrong? I am not silly enough to believe that butterflies and glitter will solve the world's problems... but they can give the mind a mini-break from the harshness of life.

I think you guys need a mini NF fairy to keep in your pocket to give you hugs or something so that you have these moments of silliness in between the seriousness of life.

The correct answer is probably "it is neither, it is neutral."

So, do you believe that optimism is always unrealistic, or is it possible that both optimism and realism can coexist in the same plane together at least some of the time?

I agree with the highlighted. I was about to reply that realism is like a tool - it is neutral. It is the use to which it is put that can prompt value judgments. Optimism and pessimism both involve subjective attitudes to what one encounters in the world. Realism attemps simply to see it with accuracy, objectively, without such judgments. My personal optimism is directly dependent upon the likelihood that I can improve something.

As for your pocket fairy, you might be surprised how effectively INTJs can escape from reality when we so choose. We just don't make the mistake (usually) of letting these recreations color our view of the "real" world we are attempting to navigate in and influence.

 

[Engineer]

(almost wrote I VD there... )

[YOUTUBE="tK_jDA3qrUU"]Mmhmm[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Malice]

How often do you find your feelings get hurt in arguments?

And if this is a rare occurrence, (rarer than say your partners/friends/etc.) do you feel some sense of entitlement that your 'hurt' is more important than their 'hurt' because it happens less often?

 

[Coriolis]

I rarely feel hurt in an argument. I sometimes get a feeling of unease or disquiet, which usually turns out in retrospect to indicate that the topic was more important to me than I realized. I never consider my hurt more important than someone else's, but then I usually don't think theirs is as important as they think it is. Feeling hurt just seems so pointless. If I feel hurt, I consider it my own fault for letting the argument get to me, and not the fault of the other person, regardless of what they said. Moreover, I see no reason why the other person cannot approach hurt feelings the same way. (Of course I understand that they usually don't and do try to make allowances for it. It sure would be simpler that way, though.)

 

[gandalf]

I rarely feel hurt in an argument. I sometimes get a feeling of unease or disquiet, which usually turns out in retrospect to indicate that the topic was more important to me than I realized. I never consider my hurt more important than someone else's, but then I usually don't think theirs is as important as they think it is. Feeling hurt just seems so pointless. If I feel hurt, I consider it my own fault for letting the argument get to me, and not the fault of the other person, regardless of what they said. Moreover, I see no reason why the other person cannot approach hurt feelings the same way. (Of course I understand that they usually don't and do try to make allowances for it. It sure would be simpler that way, though.)

I agree about that but there is one thing I'd like to add...

I have come to conclusion that someone who doesn't know me can not hurt me. I mean, I can impersonate any feedback or comments thinking either "ok, that's your opinion, you have right to that but I also have one of my own" or "ok, that may be true but that's also something I can't help". Therefore, I can only be hurt when I know that the hurting action was intentional and for that, I must know the other one well enough to know that he knows that what he/she is doing would hurt me.

 

[Engineer]

And if this is a rare occurrence, (rarer than say your partners/friends/etc.) do you feel some sense of entitlement that your 'hurt' is more important than their 'hurt' because it happens less often?

Nah. Hurty feelings seem like a weakness to me, and they're sort of irrelevant to the issue. Feelings are feelings, and I usually have to watch myself to make sure my blunt attitude doesn't step on any toes because other people care more about feelings and their condition. To me, they are a warning sign on occasion: as they are displeasing to experience (more annoying than anything else) I tend to avoid people who cause me emotional discomfort more than twice. Albeit, emotional discomfort to me is having a significant other cheat on you, so make of my personal scale as you will.

Otherwise, I'd have to heartily agree with Coriolis. Arguments should never be taken personally. It's just a question of who got their facts straight and/or argued better.

 

[cascadeco]

What do you INTJ's most appreciate/need in times when you are really really down and upset about things, feel you've screwed something up, and have reached a point of near-apathy as a result? (after having gone through frustration/extreme anger?) What don't you appreciate/what does not help? (this is specifically work related for him, but you can take this and apply it to your life in general, because for him, it all ties together anyway).

I know what I have done in similar situations in the past, I am just wondering if it actually IS what you most need so would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[gandalf]

What do you INTJ's most appreciate/need in times when you are really really down and upset about things, feel you've screwed something up, and have reached a point of near-apathy as a result? (after having gone through frustration/extreme anger?) What don't you appreciate/what does not help? (this is specifically work related for him, but you can take this and apply it to your life in general, because for him, it all ties together anyway).

I know what I have done in similar situations in the past, I am just wondering if it actually IS what you most need so would like to hear your thoughts.

For me, the best help in such a situation is help to take my thoughts away from what is troubling me. And now that INTJs think quite a lot and are somewhat stubborn about that, I need it to be very intensive and also somewhat addictive. It has to give something to concentrate on and it needs to be interesting enough to keep me in.

Sometimes an action thriller does the job, sometimes a discussion about something, sometimes it can be outdoor activities that make me use my senses intensively enough not to have time to think anything but things at hand.

Another thing that helps me quite often is help in figuring out a plan b. I mean, if I am really upset, I have not failed only a single task but I also believe that failing that one task has taken me significantly farther away from some greater goal of mine. In that case, telling me about all the other things I have been successful at doesn't help at all, but if you can help me see a light at the end of the tunnel regarding the particular goal that has upset me, you will most probably manage to help me.

As for what doesn't help, I have no answer right now.

 

[Uytuun]

What do you INTJ's most appreciate/need in times when you are really really down and upset about things, feel you've screwed something up, and have reached a point of near-apathy as a result? (after having gone through frustration/extreme anger?) What don't you appreciate/what does not help? (this is specifically work related for him, but you can take this and apply it to your life in general, because for him, it all ties together anyway).

I know what I have done in similar situations in the past, I am just wondering if it actually IS what you most need so would like to hear your thoughts.

A combined approach of listening to the problem, giving me some time to process, affirming me by doing small nice things that mean something (he would have to be extremely upset not to snap out of it by something that's real, vulnerable, loving and considerate from your side...that really comes from within you and celebrates your connection), taking my mind off the problem (by tapping into things that speak to me apart from work), relativising the problem through humour (this is not the same as making light of the feewungs), strategising to find a solution.

Vaguely in that order.

What doesn't work is "making light of the feewungs" or judging me.

 

[ceecee]

What do you INTJ's most appreciate/need in times when you are really really down and upset about things, feel you've screwed something up, and have reached a point of near-apathy as a result? (after having gone through frustration/extreme anger?) What don't you appreciate/what does not help? (this is specifically work related for him, but you can take this and apply it to your life in general, because for him, it all ties together anyway).

I know what I have done in similar situations in the past, I am just wondering if it actually IS what you most need so would like to hear your thoughts.

I don't want hugs and I don't want "I'm sorry". They don't help at all. Hear me out and if you have a real suggestion for the problem/issue, I will listen. Taking my mind off things usually doesn't help either but a quiet activity like a nap with someone close to me does help.

 

[rav3n]

How does an INTJ break out of a Ni-Fi loop?

 

[Engineer]

What do you INTJ's most appreciate/need in times when you are really really down and upset about things, feel you've screwed something up, and have reached a point of near-apathy as a result? (after having gone through frustration/extreme anger?) What don't you appreciate/what does not help? (this is specifically work related for him, but you can take this and apply it to your life in general, because for him, it all ties together anyway).

I know what I have done in similar situations in the past, I am just wondering if it actually IS what you most need so would like to hear your thoughts.

What I do for myself:
"What the [expletive] do you think you're doing, moping around about some [expletive] [expletive] of a [problem]? This does not matter to you! You're [expletive] better than this, and you're not going to let this [expletive] [problem] get you down. Now stop feeling sorry for yourself and go do something productive, you [expletive] [expletive] [expletive]."

What I like from others (female, close):
"There, there." [hug] "Let's sit down and talk about this, and I'll suggest a few solutions tentatively while you lean on my shoulder, both physically and figuratively. You don't have to be my rock all the time. I'm here for you."

(male, close):
Let's go blow some [expletive] up! Eat, drink and be merry because tonight we don't care about our problems! We'll get your mind off of it."

(male/female, acquaintance):
Jack Squat. Leave me alone, unless I asked for your suggestion or could actually make use of your advice (i.e., you've had more experience in a situation, or are older, etc)

So, it boils down to this: get my mind off of it, whether that be through talking it over with me and providing some suggestions and sympathy or by partying or doing other stuff that'd be better than letting me think more on the problem. From girls, hugs are always, always, always helpful. From girlfriends, cuddling is excellent. From guys, being bros really helps, but after I've had time to box things up and do some damage control in the situation.

I also love advice (from the right people, and from multiple trusted sources) so I can get a good picture of what my response should be, if other than my default personal one.

How does an INTJ break out of a Ni-Fi loop?

Generally by talking myself out of it. I'll become aware that I'm in a downward feedback spiral, and then just tell myself to stop and gradually psych myself up and away from it, a-la method one above.

 

[rav3n]

Generally by talking myself out of it. I'll become aware that I'm in a downward feedback spiral, and then just tell myself to stop and gradually psych myself up and away from it, a-la method one above.

To summarise, you leverage off Te, right?

 

[Engineer]

To summarise, you leverage off Te, right?

Pretty much, yes. Like using your momentum on a swingset to fly off of the swing.

 

[rav3n]

Pretty much, yes. Like using your momentum on a swingset to fly off of the swing.

Have you ever found yourself acting out with Se or misdirected Te?

 

[Engineer]

Have you ever found yourself acting out with Se or misdirected Te?

Yeah... Sometimes in my leveraging, I can turn that self-frustration on somebody else via weapons-grade sarcasm and cutting remarks. Generally I'll just be an ass if I do that, and I'm not ever proud of what happens when I do. It's not their fault I'm feeling this way, I have to remind myself.
And, of course, I'll start to get paranoid and project bad motives onto people that don't really feel hostile towards me... Though I'm not sure if that's just me being a 6 that affects that particular (mis)usage of Se.