No worries, it makes total sense. It is very muddy from a certain point of view (when you add Fi you become aware of this and it becomes a lot harder to work through because you're leaving behind the self-evidence of Ni-Te), very difficult to put into words and we go about the process of wiggling and trying to be right (which is something INTPs seem to do internally and it's maybe a different wiggling) in an odd way from a non-NJ point of view. And hidden agenda - sure, when you're stuck on a vision and you want to protect its integrity more than anything...but that's young ones I like to think. In that case Te is just a means to an end.
Yeah, both types (stereotypically considered) think outside of the box, I think, but they're oriented very differently...INTJs shuffle boxes (new boxes, turning them upside down...whatever) and their perspectives with regard to them (these are the mind acrobatics I was referring to), INTPs are shuffling elements within a box and/or slowly shift the angle at which they consider the box (architects)...help from INPs in constructing the details of my new box is invaluable. They are in that sense much more detail-oriented and "substantial" than I am (though I enjoy building myself I'm still pretty new at it).
User Tag List
Thread: Ask an INTJ
-
07-23-2011, 01:49 PM #431
-
07-23-2011, 01:51 PM #432
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
- Posts
- 11,832
My only suggestion would be to debate with INTJ individuals who are honestly open to other perspectives and communicating their own logic in a form that is intended to be an exchange of ideas, rather than some who are using deliberate obfuscation to win. Uytuun appears to be one who's interested in communicating.
-
07-23-2011, 02:01 PM #433
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
- Posts
- 11,832
Ti can be really draining for me to use so if you're experiencing same, I empathise!! But it is fun to learn to use. What's seriously difficult is that as a near-Si cripple, the clarity is really hard. So much easier to just hold the entire concept in mind, detail fuzzy, then go get detail when it's necessary.
-
07-23-2011, 02:03 PM #434
Yes, we are able to wiggle as well if we need to. Ne allows us to "take different avenues" if necessary. But, ultimately, as you may know, the INTP's main goal is "understanding". We want to understand where the other person is coming from, what their motives are, why they have a certain perspective, etc. So, our wiggling is a method by which we can explore a thing or a person from different angles. If I'm trying to figure something out, I'll view it from the north. Next day, I'll view it from the south, then the west, then the east, then from a bird's eye view, etc. All for the purpose of understanding it and how it works and how I can interact smoothly and successfully with it.
Yeah, both types (stereotypically considered) think outside of the box, I think, but they're oriented very differently...INTJs shuffle boxes (new boxes, turning them upside down...whatever) and their perspectives with regard to them (these are the mind acrobatics I was referring to), INTPs are shuffling elements within a box and/or slowly shift the angle at which they consider the box (architects)...help from INPs in constructing the details of my new box is invaluable. They are in that sense much more detail-oriented and "substantial" than I am (though I enjoy building myself I'm still pretty new at it).
Yeah, definitely. It's good dialogue. Promotes better understanding and effective communications.NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.
There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay
-
07-23-2011, 02:07 PM #435
Interesting, cuz we're so much the opposite. For me, it's like...I want to fill in all the details first...before I make a move. Because often, if I move out without the details filled in, I quickly begin running into major problems and I go, "damn! should have worked that out before hand. Should have thought this through more." I mean, Ne allows us to navigate as new things come up...but Ti wants to research it all out first in order to see if the entire thing is even feasible at all (on paper or in our mind). If we realize that it's not feasible or if it's just got to many obstacles (not worth the trouble, reward not worth time invested), then we'll scrap the whole plan and not waste any time trying to implement.
On the downside of this - we sometimes spend time brainstorming and talk ourselves out of ever doing things. The result is that we're very selective in what we set out to do. Better to try 5 things and have them all be successful, then to try 100 things and have 80 be successful and 20 failures.NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.
There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay
-
07-23-2011, 06:49 PM #436
Yes, exactly, it's easy to hold it in your mind intuitively, but working it all out - not so much. I get a tremendous kick out of the clarity and trying to work something out, although I'm clearly more like an enthusiastic puppy than a wise sensei in that regard, it's all a bit crude still I think, INPs are much more elegant and - yes - effortless about it. I have to really put myself in a certain mood in order to use it in a refined way, take it to the next level, manage a clear enunciation. And you're right it is draining after a while (possibly because we still want to hold it in our minds the way we do with the intuition, but it's heavy - still that is how we will manage to make crazy connections to/with/about it I think) and sometimes difficult to integrate into your general way of approaching the world. And you mention Ti, but based on the context in which it works best for me, the stuff I tap into, the "mood" I put myself in, I'd say it is Fi-related (as well). I spent quite some time being dissatisfied with Ni-Te (without realising it at the time I think), I (it) felt hollow...the progression to using more introverted judging, reaching for more substance, was rather natural. Was wondering whether you see Fi as playing a role in it at all.
Help me understand how you see INTP's helping you construct the details of a new box. Maybe a real-life example? Is it like you have a vision of what you'd like to do or where you'd like to go with something, but you don't really have the details of "how" that will be accomplished? And then the INTP is able to say, "just do a, b, c, x, y, z" and it'll work out just fine!" Is it something like that?
Also, one thing that I've noticed is that when I write a piece I will, without realising it, bring the text together in the formal system of language...INPs seem to have the same with logic - it permeates what they write even though at first sight coherence might seem off (to me). It's kind of funny because as a perceivedly big bad serious INTJ I feel rather frivolous amongst these logic-savvy INPs.
As for effective communication - does it help to just realise where the INTJs you're interacting with are coming from? Or perhaps you could point out assumptions, thematise the communication issue when it pops up.
-
07-23-2011, 07:32 PM #437
A couple of questions:
1) What are your feelings on the paranormal/supernatural? Do you think its all nonsense, or is there some types of phenomena you give credence to?
2) Is there any area in your life where you are particularly prone to impulsive decision-making?
3) If you loved someone, what could they do to truly disappoint you? What would make you terminate a significant relationship?
4) Apples or oranges?
5) Liz Taylor or Marilyn Monroe?And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
-
07-23-2011, 10:17 PM #438
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- MBTI
- ENFP
- Enneagram
- 7
- Socionics
- ENFP
- Posts
- 20
What does it mean when you try again and again to offer help to someone, even though your offer is never taken up?
-
07-24-2011, 09:51 AM #439
1) I believe everything paranormal/supernatural can be explained through the natural - if not today, then maybe tomorrow.
2) Not areas but situations: those that put me under a lot of stress.
3) Betray my trust.
4) Both.
5) Liz Taylor.
It means that I care about the person the help is offered to and that they really need it.
-
07-24-2011, 11:10 AM #440
Gee, Nicodemus - I could have written that myself, except for 5. I'd pick "neither" with Greta Garbo as a write-in.
Though the ground was burnt and everything turned into ashes, we will revive again. The sky is still blue, the crashing waves from long ago are unchanged. This is Earth, our planet. This dream is in the hearts of people; so long as they do not abandon it, it will not fade away. For the sake of tomorrow, keep a song in your heart. For the sake of our future, let us stop our crying and stand on our ground firmly. ~Maya
Similar Threads
-
[INTJ] What the hell is an INTJ?
By Haphazard in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)Replies: 35Last Post: 12-07-2012, 06:04 PM -
[INTJ] asking for a raise from an intj boss... tips appreciated!
By lostlanguage in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)Replies: 46Last Post: 10-21-2012, 07:02 AM -
[INTJ] Have you ever been stalked by an INTJ / INTJs have you ever stalked someone
By Natrushka in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)Replies: 66Last Post: 11-07-2007, 04:55 AM