Ask an INTJ

[INTPness]

I don't think you have fully thought this through.

No, I have. And I got some really good solid feedback from other NTJ's - several of them. I think you're just concerned primarily with saying INTJ's are right and everyone else is wrong. And I think that's silly. For that reason, I'm checking out of my discussion with you. No harm, no foul. Not offended, not taking it personal. It just doesn't go anywhere, nothing gets resolved - people just spend hours arguing with no constructive results. Enjoy your weekend, Jim.

[InvisibleJim]

Have you consider if it is you making it a personal issue?

No, I have. And I got some really good solid feedback from other NTJ's - several of them. I think you're just concerned primarily with saying INTJ's are right and everyone else is wrong. And I think that's silly. For that reason, I'm checking out of my discussion with you. No harm, no foul. Not offended, not taking it personal. It just doesn't go anywhere, nothing gets resolved - people just spend hours arguing with no constructive results. Enjoy your weekend, Jim.

*reviews his last two posts*
*laughs*

Enjoy your weekend

[Uytuun]

I see. This is good feedback.

y/w

I think that paired with this frustration that can occur (on both sides) when arguing, because it happens from two different sets of assumptions, if they get angry it is more likely because they (INTJs) feel misunderstood or mistreated (whether or not this is a "correct" assessment...) than because they feel they want to be right all the time.

Any form of anger in NTJs you want to have a look at Fi I think...as in that other thread in which you were poking INTJs, being misunderstood or people actively resisting understanding (and thus fair/true treatment/judgement, at least in my logic) in their interactions with you...it sucks. We may lash out as a result.

It's very possible to find a way of communicating but IME it requires careful attention to the assumptions underlying the communicative frame...I think maybe if INTPs enter debate with Ne, in a more playful, fast-paced way, this could be productive within the debate form...similarly, slowing down and listening, paying attention to truth in a different way helps INTJs understand INTPs better when they are on a truth-quest...integrate to taste, mix'n match, baby.

[rav3n]

Uytuun, I don't think it's an NTJ problem. More of a INTJ/INTP issue so it's the introversion to introversion issue where both are looking inwards for solutions or attempting to assert their truths.

Of the two types, INTJs are more stubborn, feel they're right and are determined to win, whether right or wrong, which appears to annoy INTPs.

[Uytuun]

Uytuun, I don't think it's an NTJ problem. More of a INTJ/INTP issue so it's the introversion to introversion issue where both are looking inwards for solutions or attempting to assert their truths.

Of the two types, INTJs are more stubborn, feel they're right and are determined to win, whether right or wrong, which appears to annoy INTPs.

I'm not so sure about the last line, TBH, but we're definitely the more irrational Fi/(Ni)-driven ones. I'm not surprised INTPs think we make no sense. :p ENTJ stubbornness and drive to win might be more straightforward to them, possibly because it is more straightforward. INTJs can have very muddled use of Te. Actually, yeah, more stubborn in that they're more attached to their vision per se. Not more stubborn in the sense that they want "x" to happen, though, I think.

[INTPness]

Uytuun, I don't think it's an NTJ problem. More of a INTJ/INTP issue so it's the introversion to introversion issue where both are looking inwards for solutions or attempting to assert their truths.

Of the two types, INTJs are more stubborn, feel they're right and are determined to win, whether right or wrong, which appears to annoy INTPs.

I'm not so sure about the last line, TBH, but we're definitely the more irrational Fi/(Ni)-driven ones. I'm not surprised INTPs think we make no sense. :p ENTJ stubbornness and drive to win might be more straightforward to them, possibly because it is more straightforward. INTJs can have very muddled use of Te. Actually, yeah, more stubborn in that they're more attached to their vision per se. Not more stubborn in the sense that they want "x" to happen, though, I think.

I think there might be something to what Jenaphor says - for the reasons that you mention, Uytuun. Don't take this the wrong way, but ENTJ's - to me at least - seem to just lay it out there logically and there's less...how to say....less "going on under the surface"...less of a hidden agenda....it's less "muddy". ENTJ's are more clear and straightforward to me. I get that, it resonates with me. ENTJ's are tough, but it's as straightforward as you can get - they just put it out there. There's less "wiggling around" or "trying to be right" - at least that's how it seems from my POV.

You said it yourself - INTJ's tend to be more irrational - and there's more going on under the surface, so you never know what angle they are debating from. A lot more guesswork involved.

[rav3n]

I'm not so sure about the last line, TBH, but we're definitely the more irrational Fi/(Ni)-driven ones. I'm not surprised INTPs think we make no sense. :p ENTJ stubbornness and drive to win might be more straightforward to them, possibly because it is more straightforward. INTJs can have very muddled use of Te. Actually, yeah, more stubborn in that they're more attached to their vision per se. Not more stubborn in the sense that they want "x" to happen, though, I think.

Yes to the bolded. Most def. we can be cranky mofos but at least we're direct about it!

I should clarify. There's a blatant gender divide in INTJs. Female INTJs are more reasonable and less dedicated to inflicting their vision. Many male INTJs get upset when they can't inflict their vision and will go to the Fi attack to win.

Consider how Ni-Te works. It's like snapshots of entire detail fuzzy frameworks. An INTJ argues by shifting entire frameworks, where contents in their entirety will change. Now consider how INTPs work with Ti-Ne. They start with a framework and then try to populate it in a crystal clear detailed way. They can also hold multiple frameworks open, incorporating information that's pertinent to each framework.

So...when determined to win and not be pinned down, INTJs will shift around. INTPs will try to understand their logic and not figure it out since information is coming from new frames of reference. There appears to be no logical flow to the INTJs information even though in the INTJs mind, they see logic since they've already shifted.

Just observations of both types from an observers perspective.

[INTPness]

So...when determined to win and not be pinned down, INTJs will shift around. INTPs will try to understand their logic and not figure it out since information is coming from new frames of reference. There appears to be no logical flow to the INTJs information even though in the INTJs mind, they see logic since they've already shifted.

This is exactly how it seems from my POV.

[rav3n]

This is exactly how it seems from my POV.

Inclusive logic vs. exclusive logic. INTJs work by "best way" and are solutions oriented. INTPs work by trying to understand the concept in explicit detail.

[INTPness]

Inclusive logic vs. exclusive logic. INTJs work by "best way" and are solutions oriented. INTPs work by trying to understand the concept in explicit detail.

So, knowing this, how might you recommend "fixing" the communications for easier flow? From the INTP perspective? If I'm talking with an INTJ colleague, what can I change or do differently in order to accomodate him or just to get along better? I guess that's what I'm having trouble with. I totally understand what you're saying...but, what to do about it - that's the important question.