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[INTJ] Ask an INTJ

INTPness

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I don't think you have fully thought this through. :)

No, I have. And I got some really good solid feedback from other NTJ's - several of them. I think you're just concerned primarily with saying INTJ's are right and everyone else is wrong. And I think that's silly. For that reason, I'm checking out of my discussion with you. No harm, no foul. Not offended, not taking it personal. It just doesn't go anywhere, nothing gets resolved - people just spend hours arguing with no constructive results. Enjoy your weekend, Jim.
 

InvisibleJim

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Have you consider if it is you making it a personal issue?

No, I have. And I got some really good solid feedback from other NTJ's - several of them. I think you're just concerned primarily with saying INTJ's are right and everyone else is wrong. And I think that's silly. For that reason, I'm checking out of my discussion with you. No harm, no foul. Not offended, not taking it personal. It just doesn't go anywhere, nothing gets resolved - people just spend hours arguing with no constructive results. Enjoy your weekend, Jim.

*reviews his last two posts*
*laughs*

Enjoy your weekend :D
 

Uytuun

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I see. This is good feedback.

y/w

I think that paired with this frustration that can occur (on both sides) when arguing, because it happens from two different sets of assumptions, if they get angry it is more likely because they (INTJs) feel misunderstood or mistreated (whether or not this is a "correct" assessment...) than because they feel they want to be right all the time.

Any form of anger in NTJs you want to have a look at Fi I think...as in that other thread in which you were poking INTJs, being misunderstood or people actively resisting understanding (and thus fair/true treatment/judgement, at least in my logic) in their interactions with you...it sucks. We may lash out as a result.

It's very possible to find a way of communicating but IME it requires careful attention to the assumptions underlying the communicative frame...I think maybe if INTPs enter debate with Ne, in a more playful, fast-paced way, this could be productive within the debate form...similarly, slowing down and listening, paying attention to truth in a different way helps INTJs understand INTPs better when they are on a truth-quest...integrate to taste, mix'n match, baby.
 

rav3n

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Uytuun, I don't think it's an NTJ problem. More of a INTJ/INTP issue so it's the introversion to introversion issue where both are looking inwards for solutions or attempting to assert their truths.

Of the two types, INTJs are more stubborn, feel they're right and are determined to win, whether right or wrong, which appears to annoy INTPs.
 

Uytuun

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Uytuun, I don't think it's an NTJ problem. More of a INTJ/INTP issue so it's the introversion to introversion issue where both are looking inwards for solutions or attempting to assert their truths.

Of the two types, INTJs are more stubborn, feel they're right and are determined to win, whether right or wrong, which appears to annoy INTPs.

I'm not so sure about the last line, TBH, but we're definitely the more irrational Fi/(Ni)-driven ones. I'm not surprised INTPs think we make no sense. :p ENTJ stubbornness and drive to win might be more straightforward to them, possibly because it is more straightforward. INTJs can have very muddled use of Te. Actually, yeah, more stubborn in that they're more attached to their vision per se. Not more stubborn in the sense that they want "x" to happen, though, I think.
 

INTPness

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Uytuun, I don't think it's an NTJ problem. More of a INTJ/INTP issue so it's the introversion to introversion issue where both are looking inwards for solutions or attempting to assert their truths.

Of the two types, INTJs are more stubborn, feel they're right and are determined to win, whether right or wrong, which appears to annoy INTPs.

I'm not so sure about the last line, TBH, but we're definitely the more irrational Fi/(Ni)-driven ones. I'm not surprised INTPs think we make no sense. :p ENTJ stubbornness and drive to win might be more straightforward to them, possibly because it is more straightforward. INTJs can have very muddled use of Te. Actually, yeah, more stubborn in that they're more attached to their vision per se. Not more stubborn in the sense that they want "x" to happen, though, I think.

I think there might be something to what Jenaphor says - for the reasons that you mention, Uytuun. Don't take this the wrong way, but ENTJ's - to me at least - seem to just lay it out there logically and there's less...how to say....less "going on under the surface"...less of a hidden agenda....it's less "muddy". ENTJ's are more clear and straightforward to me. I get that, it resonates with me. ENTJ's are tough, but it's as straightforward as you can get - they just put it out there. There's less "wiggling around" or "trying to be right" - at least that's how it seems from my POV.

You said it yourself - INTJ's tend to be more irrational - and there's more going on under the surface, so you never know what angle they are debating from. A lot more guesswork involved.
 

rav3n

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I'm not so sure about the last line, TBH, but we're definitely the more irrational Fi/(Ni)-driven ones. I'm not surprised INTPs think we make no sense. :p ENTJ stubbornness and drive to win might be more straightforward to them, possibly because it is more straightforward. INTJs can have very muddled use of Te. Actually, yeah, more stubborn in that they're more attached to their vision per se. Not more stubborn in the sense that they want "x" to happen, though, I think.
Yes to the bolded. Most def. we can be cranky mofos but at least we're direct about it! :laugh:

I should clarify. There's a blatant gender divide in INTJs. Female INTJs are more reasonable and less dedicated to inflicting their vision. Many male INTJs get upset when they can't inflict their vision and will go to the Fi attack to win.

Consider how Ni-Te works. It's like snapshots of entire detail fuzzy frameworks. An INTJ argues by shifting entire frameworks, where contents in their entirety will change. Now consider how INTPs work with Ti-Ne. They start with a framework and then try to populate it in a crystal clear detailed way. They can also hold multiple frameworks open, incorporating information that's pertinent to each framework.

So...when determined to win and not be pinned down, INTJs will shift around. INTPs will try to understand their logic and not figure it out since information is coming from new frames of reference. There appears to be no logical flow to the INTJs information even though in the INTJs mind, they see logic since they've already shifted.

Just observations of both types from an observers perspective.
 

INTPness

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So...when determined to win and not be pinned down, INTJs will shift around. INTPs will try to understand their logic and not figure it out since information is coming from new frames of reference. There appears to be no logical flow to the INTJs information even though in the INTJs mind, they see logic since they've already shifted.

This is exactly how it seems from my POV.
 

rav3n

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This is exactly how it seems from my POV.
Inclusive logic vs. exclusive logic. INTJs work by "best way" and are solutions oriented. INTPs work by trying to understand the concept in explicit detail.
 

INTPness

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Inclusive logic vs. exclusive logic. INTJs work by "best way" and are solutions oriented. INTPs work by trying to understand the concept in explicit detail.

So, knowing this, how might you recommend "fixing" the communications for easier flow? From the INTP perspective? If I'm talking with an INTJ colleague, what can I change or do differently in order to accomodate him or just to get along better? I guess that's what I'm having trouble with. I totally understand what you're saying...but, what to do about it - that's the important question.
 

Uytuun

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Don't take this the wrong way, but ENTJ's - to me at least - seem to just lay it out there logically and there's less...how to say....less "going on under the surface"...less of a hidden agenda....it's less "muddy".

There's less "wiggling around" or "trying to be right" - at least that's how it seems from my POV..

No worries, it makes total sense. It is very muddy from a certain point of view (when you add Fi you become aware of this and it becomes a lot harder to work through because you're leaving behind the self-evidence of Ni-Te), very difficult to put into words and we go about the process of wiggling and trying to be right (which is something INTPs seem to do internally and it's maybe a different wiggling) in an odd way from a non-NJ point of view. And hidden agenda - sure, when you're stuck on a vision and you want to protect its integrity more than anything...but that's young ones I like to think. In that case Te is just a means to an end.

Consider how Ni-Te works. It's like snapshots of entire detail fuzzy frameworks. An INTJ argues by shifting entire frameworks, where contents in their entirety will change. Now consider how INTPs work with Ti-Ne. They start with a framework and then try to populate it in a crystal clear detailed way. They can also hold multiple frameworks open, incorporating information that's pertinent to each framework.

So...when determined to win and not be pinned down, INTJs will shift around. INTPs will try to understand their logic and not figure it out since information is coming from new frames of reference. There appears to be no logical flow to the INTJs information even though in the INTJs mind, they see logic since they've already shifted.

Just observations of both types from an observers perspective.

Yeah, both types (stereotypically considered) think outside of the box, I think, but they're oriented very differently...INTJs shuffle boxes (new boxes, turning them upside down...whatever) and their perspectives with regard to them (these are the mind acrobatics I was referring to), INTPs are shuffling elements within a box and/or slowly shift the angle at which they consider the box (architects)...help from INPs in constructing the details of my new box is invaluable. They are in that sense much more detail-oriented and "substantial" than I am (though I enjoy building myself I'm still pretty new at it).
 

rav3n

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So, knowing this, how might you recommend "fixing" the communications for easier flow? From the INTP perspective? If I'm talking with an INTJ colleague, what can I change or do differently in order to accomodate him or just to get along better? I guess that's what I'm having trouble with. I totally understand what you're saying...but, what to do about it - that's the important question.
My only suggestion would be to debate with INTJ individuals who are honestly open to other perspectives and communicating their own logic in a form that is intended to be an exchange of ideas, rather than some who are using deliberate obfuscation to win. Uytuun appears to be one who's interested in communicating.
 

rav3n

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Yeah, both types (stereotypically considered) think outside of the box, I think, but they're oriented very differently...INTJs shuffle boxes (new boxes, turning them upside down...whatever) and their perspectives with regard to them (these are the mind acrobatics I was referring to), INTPs are shuffling elements within a box and/or slowly shift the angle at which they consider the box (architects)...help from INPs in constructing the details of my new box is invaluable. They are in that sense much more detail-oriented and "substantial" than I am (though I enjoy building myself I'm still pretty new at it).
Ti can be really draining for me to use so if you're experiencing same, I empathise!! But it is fun to learn to use. What's seriously difficult is that as a near-Si cripple, the clarity is really hard. So much easier to just hold the entire concept in mind, detail fuzzy, then go get detail when it's necessary.
 

INTPness

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No worries, it makes total sense. It is very muddy from a certain point of view (when you add Fi you become aware of this and it becomes a lot harder to work through because you're leaving behind the self-evidence of Ni-Te), very difficult to put into words and we go about the process of wiggling and trying to be right (which is something INTPs seem to do internally and it's maybe a different wiggling) in an odd way from a non-NJ point of view. And hidden agenda - sure, when you're stuck on a vision and you want to protect its integrity more than anything...but that's young ones I like to think. In that case Te is just a means to an end.

Yes, we are able to wiggle as well if we need to. Ne allows us to "take different avenues" if necessary. But, ultimately, as you may know, the INTP's main goal is "understanding". We want to understand where the other person is coming from, what their motives are, why they have a certain perspective, etc. So, our wiggling is a method by which we can explore a thing or a person from different angles. If I'm trying to figure something out, I'll view it from the north. Next day, I'll view it from the south, then the west, then the east, then from a bird's eye view, etc. All for the purpose of understanding it and how it works and how I can interact smoothly and successfully with it.

Yeah, both types (stereotypically considered) think outside of the box, I think, but they're oriented very differently...INTJs shuffle boxes (new boxes, turning them upside down...whatever) and their perspectives with regard to them (these are the mind acrobatics I was referring to), INTPs are shuffling elements within a box and/or slowly shift the angle at which they consider the box (architects)...help from INPs in constructing the details of my new box is invaluable. They are in that sense much more detail-oriented and "substantial" than I am (though I enjoy building myself I'm still pretty new at it).

Help me understand how you see INTP's helping you construct the details of a new box. Maybe a real-life example? Is it like you have a vision of what you'd like to do or where you'd like to go with something, but you don't really have the details of "how" that will be accomplished? And then the INTP is able to say, "just do a, b, c, x, y, z" and it'll work out just fine!" Is it something like that?


My only suggestion would be to debate with INTJ individuals who are honestly open to other perspectives and communicating their own logic in a form that is intended to be an exchange of ideas, rather than some who are using deliberate obfuscation to win. Uytuun appears to be one who's interested in communicating.

Yeah, definitely. It's good dialogue. Promotes better understanding and effective communications.
 

INTPness

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Ti can be really draining for me to use so if you're experiencing same, I empathise!! But it is fun to learn to use. What's seriously difficult is that as a near-Si cripple, the clarity is really hard. So much easier to just hold the entire concept in mind, detail fuzzy, then go get detail when it's necessary.

Interesting, cuz we're so much the opposite. For me, it's like...I want to fill in all the details first...before I make a move. Because often, if I move out without the details filled in, I quickly begin running into major problems and I go, "damn! should have worked that out before hand. Should have thought this through more." I mean, Ne allows us to navigate as new things come up...but Ti wants to research it all out first in order to see if the entire thing is even feasible at all (on paper or in our mind). If we realize that it's not feasible or if it's just got to many obstacles (not worth the trouble, reward not worth time invested), then we'll scrap the whole plan and not waste any time trying to implement.

On the downside of this - we sometimes spend time brainstorming and talk ourselves out of ever doing things. The result is that we're very selective in what we set out to do. Better to try 5 things and have them all be successful, then to try 100 things and have 80 be successful and 20 failures.
 

Uytuun

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Ti can be really draining for me to use so if you're experiencing same, I empathise!! But it is fun to learn to use. What's seriously difficult is that as a near-Si cripple, the clarity is really hard. So much easier to just hold the entire concept in mind, detail fuzzy, then go get detail when it's necessary.

Yes, exactly, it's easy to hold it in your mind intuitively, but working it all out - not so much. I get a tremendous kick out of the clarity and trying to work something out, although I'm clearly more like an enthusiastic puppy than a wise sensei in that regard, it's all a bit crude still I think, INPs are much more elegant and - yes - effortless about it. I have to really put myself in a certain mood in order to use it in a refined way, take it to the next level, manage a clear enunciation. And you're right it is draining after a while (possibly because we still want to hold it in our minds the way we do with the intuition, but it's heavy - still that is how we will manage to make crazy connections to/with/about it I think) and sometimes difficult to integrate into your general way of approaching the world. And you mention Ti, but based on the context in which it works best for me, the stuff I tap into, the "mood" I put myself in, I'd say it is Fi-related (as well). I spent quite some time being dissatisfied with Ni-Te (without realising it at the time I think), I (it) felt hollow...the progression to using more introverted judging, reaching for more substance, was rather natural. Was wondering whether you see Fi as playing a role in it at all.

Help me understand how you see INTP's helping you construct the details of a new box. Maybe a real-life example? Is it like you have a vision of what you'd like to do or where you'd like to go with something, but you don't really have the details of "how" that will be accomplished? And then the INTP is able to say, "just do a, b, c, x, y, z" and it'll work out just fine!" Is it something like that?

Actually, oddly enough, yeah. I can't really give you a "concrete concrete" example (I'm in academia), but say that I'm writing a paper and I have a nice and substantial shift and I've spent time trying to find tools and ways to think it out, integrating shifty ways of trying to conceptualise my initial shift with an actual way of conceptualising it (which means thinking hard, I don't have the feeling I actually *thought* much (consciously) before starting to use whatever can be related to Fi/Ti). If I give an INP a first draft of that they will not touch the shifts much, but they will help me improve my framework and see things (sometimes see things that are implicitly there, but I haven't managed to unearth yet or put into words) or hand me concepts that are extremely useful "you can do x, y, z and you should do a I think, then it'll be fine" and when I apply those things it does seem to bring things together. So yeah, I guess they see where I want to go and how I want to go about it and then help me get there. And sometimes while filling in your box you realise there are issues which would have remained obscured to you in the "intuitive mind-holding" mode or new shifts are triggered or it helps you think of the box as a circle connected to some odd blob-like thing, the possibilities are endless,but in this case not "empty"...I think that when you take an "enriched" idea back to RL (it's not my area, lol, but I don't think INTP ideas need to be Abstract Realm only) and apply it we might be able to solve complex and very real issues in ways that transcend the sometimes ad hoc character of (N)TJ solutions (BTW, I suppose those might help you out when you're feeling stuck in a situation because you" haven't thought it out properly" - in certain contexts)...hello philosophy I suppose.

Also, one thing that I've noticed is that when I write a piece I will, without realising it, bring the text together in the formal system of language...INPs seem to have the same with logic - it permeates what they write even though at first sight coherence might seem off (to me). It's kind of funny because as a perceivedly big bad serious INTJ I feel rather frivolous amongst these logic-savvy INPs.

As for effective communication - does it help to just realise where the INTJs you're interacting with are coming from? Or perhaps you could point out assumptions, thematise the communication issue when it pops up.
 

violet_crown

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A couple of questions:

1) What are your feelings on the paranormal/supernatural? Do you think its all nonsense, or is there some types of phenomena you give credence to?

2) Is there any area in your life where you are particularly prone to impulsive decision-making?

3) If you loved someone, what could they do to truly disappoint you? What would make you terminate a significant relationship?

4) Apples or oranges?

5) Liz Taylor or Marilyn Monroe?
 

ohd1122

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What does it mean when you try again and again to offer help to someone, even though your offer is never taken up?
 

Nicodemus

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A couple of questions:

1) What are your feelings on the paranormal/supernatural? Do you think its all nonsense, or is there some types of phenomena you give credence to?

2) Is there any area in your life where you are particularly prone to impulsive decision-making?

3) If you loved someone, what could they do to truly disappoint you? What would make you terminate a significant relationship?

4) Apples or oranges?

5) Liz Taylor or Marilyn Monroe?
1) I believe everything paranormal/supernatural can be explained through the natural - if not today, then maybe tomorrow.

2) Not areas but situations: those that put me under a lot of stress.

3) Betray my trust.

4) Both.

5) Liz Taylor.

What does it mean when you try again and again to offer help to someone, even though your offer is never taken up?
It means that I care about the person the help is offered to and that they really need it.
 

Coriolis

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Gee, Nicodemus - I could have written that myself, except for 5. I'd pick "neither" with Greta Garbo as a write-in.
 
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