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[INTP] noise-oholics, calm-ophobes

cafe

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Hahaha i shouldn't argue this with a parent. of course it would be nice of me to help out more so they could have some time to get ahead. but they don't ask. and i feel it's fine if I don't help b/c if i did--i'd never see a return on that sacrifice of mine. My father would just watch more television. My mother would read more bible. Neither of them are firm enough (at least as of right now) to aspire to something greater than what they are now.

Fortunately i don't have family to support and won't until i'm sure i can do it with fiscal ease, and am pleased enough with my personal development that I can ignore it for the ensuing 20 years while I rear a child or childs.

the thing is with my father--he's not sacrificing anything for his family. he's only looking out for himself, being a fellow NT, and occasionally gives out of guilt. he has a house for himself, and so what if I, the son, keep living there--I doesn't consume very much. I even buy some of my own food. my dad makes lunch for himself, and what's mixing a little extra tuna salad for the others. how much effort does it take to include an extra can of tuna? or an extra egg in the omelette? let someone exist in a room that would otherwise be unused? He spends inordinate amounts of money on things he doesn't need. That's why we don't have any living room furniture. ----->
Heh. He doesn't like you guys either. He made a commitment and he's going to follow through, and he'll do the mundane chores to keep the wife off his back, but you can't make him like it.
 

Xander

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if he was any sort of a worthwhile human being he would level with me, recruit my help with chores so he can get off his ass and look for a job he can actually do. if he really wanted to get ahead he would be taking pains to do so. it's a matter of desire, and here--it just ain't is.
After my parents breaking up over the course of 10 years and then having it out with my father over why he never said anything, I got the response "well it's not the kind of thing you feel comfortable talking about with your own son". Perhaps your father is depressed and needs help but doesn't see you as an "appropriate" helper? That doesn't mean he thinks less of you... just that he has witnessed your birth and development.. it gives a person a different perspective.
 

terrencemcb

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I think therein lies the heart of your trouble. Perhaps if that were tackled then you wouldn't hide in your music so readily? Perhaps your father too?

ya had to kick me in the taint? :sombrero: of course that would be the logical thing to do--deal with the source. but that could take years to fix! i'd have to manipulate both of them into new jobs. and by then anyway i'd be gone living with the perennial love of my life. it's true i could very well save their marriage. they've talked about divorce after my sister is out of high school. but is it worth sacrificing my time to fix their ignorant conundrums? to an NF maybe. but me? all wrapped up in me? i think probably not. and actually, upon second thought, I don't think i could save their marriage, just make it less bitter when they gather the will to go through with divorce. They're an abysmal match.
 

cafe

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It's so not your job to fix your parent's marriage, but I don't think you realize just how easy it is to get in your father's horrible, miserable position. He's trapped, probably biding his time. Whatever you think about the way he's dealt with and is dealing with his situation, I think he gets a little respect from me, at least, for trying to hang in there and play along as much as he has.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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... My question to forum members is are any of you like me? Does music confuse you, make you listless, make you disappear into your mind. Does television/movies hypnotize you, pacify you, make you forget time, lose your drive? Make you generally fail at life, forget stuff, be chronically late?
You make an interesting point. Regarding music, there is a huge issue as to 'what' music. Most of the commercialized music is very repetitive with few interesting pattern relationships. I haven't listened to the top 40 radio is years.

There is music that heightens my awareness more than just about anything else. Beethoven's last piano sonatas and quartets are one example. Asian classical music is quite foreign to western ears, but it makes a profound impact on me as well. Music that challenges my ears and is art imbued with philosophical meaning and layers of patterns that my conscious mind could never perceive, is what strengthens me as a person. Still, though, there are times when only silence will do.
 

terrencemcb

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After my parents breaking up over the course of 10 years and then having it out with my father over why he never said anything, I got the response "well it's not the kind of thing you feel comfortable talking about with your own son". Perhaps your father is depressed and needs help but doesn't see you as an "appropriate" helper? That doesn't mean he thinks less of you... just that he has witnessed your birth and development.. it gives a person a different perspective.

shit .... ....... shit! i wasn't expecting to actually get any good advice. but i don't mean of course that i thought it wasn't in your capacity, just that no one would want to bother with a stranger's situation.

Fact: my father is definitely depressed, and i know he'd like to reestablish a rapport with me, but that would mean fessing up to my own ineffectual goings on: "So what you been doing?" "nothing, you?" "nothing". i'd like to wait until i get bragging rights to something. like winning some scholarships.

and I know he'd be weird about discussing his marriage with me, me being his spawn, but i stopped being his son when i stopped admiring him and that was 5 years ago. i'm really just another human in relation to him. being a haughty intellectual and all he probably thinks i couldn't offer any good insight on relationships, even though i've been with my girlfriend for 6 years. but that's ANOTHER dilemma. that has to be a secret. i can't be totally honest with him because i've got secrets from him. stuff i can't trust him to have a good reaction too. so i don't know if it would be good to try to be his friend while also being dishonest with him.
 

Xander

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I don't think i could save their marriage, just make it less bitter when they gather the will to go through with it. They're an abysmal match.
Ok let me be open with you (please don't take offence at any of this btw but it's concentrated experience).

Your parents are individuals. They exists outside of the marriage. It would seem that neither is happy or that your father is being pecked for not conforming and your mother is stressed because life isn't all roses (that's part assumption, part intuition and partially what my parents were like). Basically the marriage has no effect at present. If you ask or confront they will probably evade (I'm not sure as I don't know them at all so forgive my inaccuracy). So to approach from the other end why not try to engage your parents as individuals? Watch a film with your father and then try to get him to open up about it. Ask him what film you should watch to experience "proper" scifi or something. Then do the same for and with your mother. Hopefully you'll get some positivity back into the household even if they do eventually break up.

As for motivation, having happy parents is a wonderful thing to have through your life. Having parents who are depressed or miserable I'd think would have a conversely devastating effect on your life.

Myself. I now have one living parent and I get on with him very well now. So well in fact that despite him being a private ENTJ kinda guy he told me that he thinks the marriage broke up cause they had kids too early (vicious or what!!!). Oh and he's a lot happier now... he's just on the prowl somedays which can be unnerving.
 

Xander

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and I know he'd be weird about discussing his marriage with me, me being his spawn, but i stopped being his son when i stopped admiring him and that was 5 years ago. i'm really just another human in relation to him. being a haughty intellectual and all he probably thinks i couldn't offer any good insight on relationships, even though i've been with my girlfriend for 6 years. but that's ANOTHER dilemma. that has to be a secret. i can't be totally honest with him because i've got secrets from him. stuff i can't trust him to have a good reaction too. so i don't know if it would be good to try to be his friend while also being dishonest with him.

At what age did you start thinking you could kick his ass?
At what age do you expect him to acknowledge that you can kick his ass?
(That should show you the disparity between you thinking your no longer just his boy and him seeing it too. It's about 6-10 years in my experience.)

Oh and if he's to be your equal then do not fear him. So what if he yells? You tell him what's wrong regardless and then stand there ready to take whatever burden your actions bring. That should fill him with more pride than anything else. Just don't expect the swat to turn suddenly into a pat on the head. These things take time. Especially parents. Their like real slow at this kinda stuff ;)

*wonders if Cafe will ever speak to him again*
 

cafe

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At what age did you start thinking you could kick his ass?
At what age do you expect him to acknowledge that you can kick his ass?
(That should show you the disparity between you thinking your no longer just his boy and him seeing it too. It's about 6-10 years in my experience.)

Oh and if he's to be your equal then do not fear him. So what if he yells? You tell him what's wrong regardless and then stand there ready to take whatever burden your actions bring. That should fill him with more pride than anything else. Just don't expect the swat to turn suddenly into a pat on the head. These things take time. Especially parents. Their like real slow at this kinda stuff ;)

*wonders if Cafe will ever speak to him again*
I've just been on both sides of things. I know what it is to have a selfish, self-absorbed parent, but as a parent, I also know, that despite my mother's self-absorption and the current status of my relationship with her, she did do a lot for me.

I know I screw up a lot with my kids and that, but for the grace of God, my husband could be in this boy's dad's position. It just so happens that we lucked out and are still in love. Basically that means that my NT tolerates the kids and the job he doesn't much care for out of love for me. Eventually, it will be just us and he can chase his dreams again and I will delightedly go along. I don't know what the kids will think of him one day, when they have a better understanding of him putting his education and career dreams on hold so that they could have a better life, but I hope that he will get a little appreciation for it from them. He certainly has it from me.

And of course you have to take it easy introducing things about yourself to your parents that they may disapprove of (especially if you are not self-supporting and engaging in activities that might give you someone new to support). To your parents, you will always, at least a little bit, be that frail, beautiful, little screaming, pooping bundle they brought home from the hospital.
 

terrencemcb

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Have you tried sympathizing with him about this ? I realize that this wouldn't have a direct effect on the noise your OP spoke of, but it might serve as a sort of temporary "family gathering" in lieu of a special room for that purpose.

well what's funny is I can sympathize with him very precisely; my dream is to become a successful painter, and like him I'm very shy and unsure about my work. From what I've been told my behavior now mirrors his when he was younger--refusing to showcase my work to avoid judgement, and mostly refusing to work at all because of the fear of producing bad work.

the moral thing to do would be to take an active role in each other's development, coaching & critiquing, aaaaand, i don't know, i guess we'll get around to it eventually. i don't know when that particular important step might be taken; i can't even decide how to sort out my own priorities right now; i'm still grappling with my amorphous identity, figuring out what my real purposes should be, what's important to me. I don't want to take that first step until i'm sure my foot's on right.
 

Xander

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I don't know what the kids will think of him one day, when they have a better understanding of him putting his education and career dreams on hold so that they could have a better life, but I hope that he will get a little appreciation for it from them.
Well it took me until I was in my early twenties to even realise his full character (it didn't help that he's so private but that's his choice). Hopefully your hubby is not the kind to give up too early as hopefully the pay off is well worth the wait.
He certainly has it from me.
That alone speaks volumes.
(Ok wanted a nice smiley version of a pat on the head without being patronising... totally failed. Sorry.)

I don't want to take that first step until i'm sure my foot's on right.
Now there's a problem I recognise ;)

That's the thing with trying to model mentally and predict what could happen to protect yourself.. plans, tactics and strategies don't survive first contact with the enemy (in this case the world). Try to cover your ass before you go on stage sure but don't forget that the aim is to get on stage and not to cover your ass (if you follow my drift).
 

terrencemcb

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Ok let me be open with you (please don't take offence at any of this btw but it's concentrated experience).

Your parents are individuals. They exists outside of the marriage. It would seem that neither is happy or that your father is being pecked for not conforming and your mother is stressed because life isn't all roses (that's part assumption, part intuition and partially what my parents were like). Basically the marriage has no effect at present. If you ask or confront they will probably evade (I'm not sure as I don't know them at all so forgive my inaccuracy). So to approach from the other end why not try to engage your parents as individuals? Watch a film with your father and then try to get him to open up about it. Ask him what film you should watch to experience "proper" scifi or something. Then do the same for and with your mother. Hopefully you'll get some positivity back into the household even if they do eventually break up.

As for motivation, having happy parents is a wonderful thing to have through your life. Having parents who are depressed or miserable I'd think would have a conversely devastating effect on your life.

Myself. I now have one living parent and I get on with him very well now. So well in fact that despite him being a private ENTJ kinda guy he told me that he thinks the marriage broke up cause they had kids too early (vicious or what!!!). Oh and he's a lot happier now... he's just on the prowl somedays which can be unnerving.

oh jaja, i remember they're individuals. I've pondered about ways to re-bond and quickly realized that there's not much/ nothing we could all do together. So I've thought of ways to be with them each separately. I could kayak with my mother, and sculpt with my father.

my dad evades the marriage subject, but my mom really likes to blow off steam about how dissatisfied she is. She wants the roses, yes, and to be treated like a fine lady, and my dad is a slap on the ass kind of guy, perhaps reservedly rowdy? no gentleman, and seemingly unwilling to make behavioral compromises.

your guess was good. about the movies too. he's borderline connoisseur. he loves to discourse about films and there I can't accommodate because i inherited none of his eloquence (verbal) or quick-draw analysis skills.

(vicious or what!!!)= haha mine had kids too early as well; i was almost a bastard.

contraception failed their premarital escapades
 

Xander

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oh jaja, i remember they're individuals. I've pondered about ways to re-bond and quickly realized that there's not much/ nothing we could all do together. So I've thought of ways to be with them each separately. I could kayak with my mother, and sculpt with my father.
Trust me start trying. I soo wish I'd pain more attention when I'd found out my mother was going on a thirty mile drive to take walks on the beach by herself (we're talking british coastline.. hardly likely to be sunbathing ;) ). I wish I'd been at home then so that I could be a person she could take with her. I wish I'd paid more attention to my father's sporting hobbies so I was half cop with a bat and closer to him.

Oh and plus if your trying already, should they object then you should feel more confident in yourself than if you hadn't because you are then trying to do the right thing. Of course if it goes right then hopefully everyone is a lot happier.
my dad evades the marriage subject, but my mom really likes to blow off steam about how dissatisfied she is. She wants the roses, yes, and to be treated like a fine lady, and my dad is a slap on the ass kind of guy, perhaps reservedly rowdy? no gentleman, and seemingly unwilling to make behavioral compromises.
What is it they say? "A man marries the woman he fell in love with, a woman marries someone she hopes to mould into the person she loves" (Something like that anyhow).

Sounds like they weren't really paying attention when they started the relationship or that somehow they've parted philosophies at some point. It's a shame but it's more of a shame if they allow it to make themselves miserable. That's the bit you can help with. Though tread softly, it a minefield and some f** keeps moving the things around! ;)
your guess was good. about the movies too. he's borderline connoisseur. he loves to discourse about films and there I can't accommodate because i inherited none of his eloquence (verbal) or quick-draw analysis skills.
It's not a competition, or at least it shouldn't be. If he becomes awkward in his speaking (esp if it's deliberate) then ask him to reiterate.

My father was always far better at DIY than I was. He still has a hell of a lot to teach me but now I can pick up all those bad habits... he's stopped being so dogmatic with me :devil:
(vicious or what!!!)= haha mine had kids too early as well; i was almost a bastard.

contraception failed their premarital escapades
I always thought that'd be kinda cool. Xander the Bastard. See it even has a nice ring to it :D
 

terrencemcb

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Well it took me until I was in my early twenties to even realise his full character...
how old were you exactly when you began to realize?

I don't want to take that first step until i'm sure my foot's on right.
Now there's a problem I recognise ;)

That's the thing with trying to model mentally and predict what could happen to protect yourself.. plans, tactics and strategies don't survive first contact with the enemy (in this case the world). Try to cover your ass before you go on stage sure but don't forget that the aim is to get on stage and not to cover your ass (if you follow my drift).
thank you very very much--i like that advice.

are you a veteran?
 

terrencemcb

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I always thought that'd be kinda cool. Xander the Bastard. See it even has a nice ring to it :D

ja ^^ i wanted to be Terrence the bastard. I was bummed when i checked and found that they would have had to be unmarried at my birth, not just conception.
 

cafe

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I always thought that'd be kinda cool. Xander the Bastard. See it even has a nice ring to it :D
ja ^^ i wanted to be Terrence the bastard. I was bummed when i checked and found that they would have had to be unmarried at my birth, not just conception.
Wow, I never thought that was something anyone would envy about me.

Heather the Bastard at your service.

My dad was not aware of my existence until I was a full nine months old. The surprise of it all caused him to question my paternity, and my mother reacted by huffing off and not contacting him again until I was 27 years old. If the two of them ever married, I would leave flee the country.
 

terrencemcb

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Wow, I never thought that was something anyone would envy about me.

Heather the Bastard at your service.

My dad was not aware of my existence until I was a full nine months old. The surprise of it all caused him to question my paternity, and my mother reacted by huffing off and not contacting him again until I was 27 years old. If the two of them ever married, I would leave flee the country.

haha you are cooler now! men want to be real bastards because of that romantic eastwood persona--the man with no name. a dude out of nowhere, with nothing to lose = tough guy

you should change your username to heather the bastard. that sounds so good : D
 

cafe

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haha you are cooler now! men want to be real bastards because of that romantic eastwood persona--the man with no name. a dude out of nowhere, with nothing to lose = tough guy

you should change your username to heather the bastard. that sounds so good : D
Yes, I can just see it now: I'm at parent-teacher conferences. The teacher addresses me as Mrs. ________ and I say, "Let's not be so formal. Please. Call me Heather the Bastard. What shall I call you?"

:yim_rolling_on_the_
 

Xander

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I always wondered who htb was. It's your alternate posting name isn't it Cafe :thelook:
 

Xander

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how old were you exactly when you began to realize?
Precision? Hi, I'm a P. I find it hard to remember last week.

I'd guess it was early to mid teens when I started thinking that there was more than just the mask there. Mind you ENTJs are hardly the easiest people to penetrate the defences on. Esp if your another T!
thank you very very much--i like that advice.

are you a veteran?
I still do it. It's in my nature. I plan and analyse soo much that by the time it comes around to doing something.. I've lost interest.

I'm getting that bad that now even when I buy myself something new for my computer that when it comes time to assemble it I'm no longer excited. I've researched and thought the life out of it!

Basically INTPs do well from learning a few of the positive aspects of ESFJs. So sometimes just grab the subject by the nuts and swing them a few times to see how well it goes rather than drawing a 3 dimensional model and using physics to predict it. It takes less time and usually is more fun :)
 
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