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[NT] Nihilism

xennui

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You know what leads to depression and hopelessness? Identifying yourself so intensely with ideals that when your rational faculties force you to accept them as illusions you feel like you've lost an integral part of yourself and your reason to live.

God damn, you tell 'em! ;) My whole fucking life fell apart when I lost my ideals... which was still a step up, because they were killing me.
 

xennui

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If you want I can call off the entire debate as it seems you don't wish to continue.

No no, I was just explaining why my original post was missing, 'cuz I got all chick-shit! I'm caught now ;)


Well, yes, that is correct, but I meant why should how nature made us be a guideline for our actions and way of being as what we've been made by nature, in the end, has no objective value.

I don't think that how nature made us is a guideline for our actions, I think nature determines our actions. What you call "value" is simply what benefits the individual, the species, the group... though it's hard to say what are the 'right' values for the right time, and our species is so successful because it has units like us working to figure out the appropriate values. To survive, to grow, to spread. Why? Because growing and spreading is succesful. Not because it in itself has value, simply because the parts of nature that aren't built for that tend to get gobbled up by the ones that are. In a way maybe we're here not because of our species strengths, virtues or "values," as much as the lack of those in competitors.


But here's the problem: you're assigning value to what other people think, how they feel, to suffering, my social position, and to my troubles in general. In reality, those things don't have any objective value - if the nihilistic world view is correct - and if I overcome the subjective factors - as the truth is supposed to set me free, not just exist in an irrelevant manner and I continue my daily existence - then I'll realize it's all senseless to get worked up about those things.

Yes. That is what is refered to as enlightenment, kesho, satori, entering the stream, the eternal tao from which 10,000 things arise and 10,000 things subside. The void. Nirvana. It's not non-existance, it's just... observing and accepting. That needs no value.


after the crime, I start suffering due to my conscience or whatnot, I shouldn't avoid it just because of that, because, in the end, I'm only deceiving myself by suffering.

Who said you shouldn't avoid it? You can't avoid it, it's the way you're wired and you'll feel guilty whether you want to or not. Unless you're a psychopath, and then you'd have no conciseness. I'm not saying "should" to anything, that's the whole point of why realizing the meaning of meaning sets you free. All the "shoulds" go away. And the fear, like, "but I'll lose my moral compass and murder" goes away too, because you simply see that you are what you are and that is not what you are or have ever been. Or if is what you are, you're probably not on this site having this discussion anyway. You're too busy with Murder.


That's just the way he's wired, thus there shouldn't be any problem with what he's done.

There you go with those "shoulds" again. There's nothing "should" about it. Those things are a problem to us because they seriously disrupt lives, and the individuals, the groups; so the society reacts to that, just like if I poke an ant hive they'll come pouring out to defend themselves. If it's not in the units' nature to defend, then the unit not thrive/survive. I don't see the need for "value" in that, except that we survive only because we place value on survival.
Therefor, society sets a subjective value, a should of "not kill in this instance" because that moral code is a successful operating mode that's been developed over millions of years. But there's nothing universal or objective about it, nor need there be.

should we consider their actions to not matter

If it matters to you, you'll do something about it based on your proximity and ability to influence or react to the situation. If it matters to society, then soicety will impose a rule, a should, but if you're looking for a Grand Universal Meaning to why one shouldn't kill or when one should and shouldnt', and for whom, and when... no, it absolutely does not matter, it's entirely subjective to the group and the present needs. That's why Jesus can tell you to turn the other cheek as you march off to kill Nazis. It's subjective and pragmatic.
 

Aesthete

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No no, I was just explaining why my original post was missing, 'cuz I got all chick-shit! I'm caught now ;)

I don't think that how nature made us is a guideline for our actions, I think nature determines our actions. What you call "value" is simply what benefits the individual, the species, the group... though it's hard to say what are the 'right' values for the right time, and our species is so successful because it has units like us working to figure out the appropriate values. To survive, to grow, to spread. Why? Because growing and spreading is succesful. Not because it in itself has value, simply because the parts of nature that aren't built for that tend to get gobbled up by the ones that are. In a way maybe we're here not because of our species strengths, virtues or "values," as much as the lack of those in competitors.

Yes. That is what is refered to as enlightenment, kesho, satori, entering the stream, the eternal tao from which 10,000 things arise and 10,000 things subside. The void. Nirvana. It's not non-existance, it's just... observing and accepting. That needs no value.

Who said you shouldn't avoid it? You can't avoid it, it's the way you're wired and you'll feel guilty whether you want to or not. Unless you're a psychopath, and then you'd have no conciseness. I'm not saying "should" to anything, that's the whole point of why realizing the meaning of meaning sets you free. All the "shoulds" go away. And the fear, like, "but I'll lose my moral compass and murder" goes away too, because you simply see that you are what you are and that is not what you are or have ever been. Or if is what you are, you're probably not on this site having this discussion anyway. You're too busy with Murder.

There you go with those "shoulds" again. There's nothing "should" about it. Those things are a problem to us because they seriously disrupt lives, and the individuals, the groups; so the society reacts to that, just like if I poke an ant hive they'll come pouring out to defend themselves. If it is not in the units' nature to defend, then the unit will thrive. I don't see the need for "value" in that, except that we survive only because we place value on survival.
Therefor, society sets a subjective value, a should of "not kill in this instance" because that moral code is a successful operating mode that's been developed over millions of years. But there's nothing universal or objective about it, nor need there be.

If it matters to you, you'll do something about it based on your proximity and ability to influence or react to the situation. If it matters to society, then soicety will impose a rule, a should, but if you're looking for a Grand Universal Meaning to shy one should or shouldn't kill, or when the appropriate time to kill is for whom... no, it does not matter. Not on anything close to that scale.

Ok, very well: let's say there are no "shoulds". Let me put it another way, then: if society was dominated by psychopaths who feel no guilt over their actions - and I'm beginning to think that that might be the case - would you say that letting them go on murdering - or doing whatever they want to do - would be quite all right? (I don't meant to say that there is really anything "good" or "bad" within this argument, but what is in accordance with nature is "good".) If man is simply a murderer fighting for his own domination - and I think that is the case most of the time - why stop him? It's quite normal for him Man is not intrinsically a collaborator - except when it suits him for further domination - and anything that goes against this prospect is rubbish taught by people who believe in "shoulds" to the young.

As well, "growing and spreading" is not so "successful": what happens if we keep growing, but have nowhere to spread any more? We bring about our own destruction; but it seems we're "made" to both bring about our success and downfall - quite paradoxically.
 

RaptorWizard

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Nihilism - That reminds me of Darth Nihilus, a very powerful Sith Lord with an insatiable hunger to devour the life force of everything!

 

Within

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Existential and moral nihilism is the shining path to self-knowledge and eventually freedom. Learning to understand what is important to you will set you free.
 

flameskull95

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fuck nihilism. I don't care if it's rational or not, it makes people feel empty and unfulfilled and leads to depression and hopelessness. meaning is not a rational phenomenon and, if you don't allow it to exist, it will slip away from you. remember that knowledge is the servant of self actualization and not the other way around.

I think it's less about meaning, rather about as humans, how can we actually think we understand reality?

I think as a 4w5 INFP I have this issue, and it's the most berating thing.

It's like waking up from a dream and not being convinced you've woken up to reality.
 

flameskull95

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...Then, I think, who am I fooling?? I AM IGNORANT!! I am, after all, this little tiny speck floating through space & time. WTF could I actually know?? WTF could ANYONE actually know?? I have even argued & doubted science/scientists. I see science on the same level of religion. Maybe it is more accurate, BUT it's all still based on HUMAN DATA & experiments. Whose to say they were done correctly, and whose to say that just b/c we observe something as one way that is TRULY that way??

I found this orgasmic website (yes, I said orgasmic) that explains everything in the most simple, logical manner. I LOVE it! However, it makes me feel like it IS true, nothing does matter.
www.spaceandmotion.com

Do you struggle with similar questions? Any thoughts??

I always feel like this, it actually keeps me from being happy sometimes(like in a circumstance that should* be making me happy).

Hahaha and yeah that's pretty much the description I use to describe myself as well I'm just a 'speck flying through space-time' . I wouldn't blame science though, especially since most sciences try to debate the link between us and reality, not just reality as we feel we perceive it.

This is also kinda why I like neurology and psychology, it aims to make sense of 'who we are' to judge everything.

I think true ignorance is when you're not aware of ignorance. I don't think you're ignorant, you wouldn't be asking these questions if you were.
 

RaptorWizard

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Existential and moral nihilism is the shining path to self-knowledge and eventually freedom. Learning to understand what is important to you will set you free.

Indeed we do seem to find that the liberating light of knowledge guides our ways towards freedom, giving us the power by which we can impose our will, our will being our desires, or what's important to us, upon the world, and in this way do we truly live a life of freedom, or in essence, a life without restrictions, which could be perceived as perfection.

I think it's less about meaning, rather about as humans, how can we actually think we understand reality?

I think as a 4w5 INFP I have this issue, and it's the most berating thing.

It's like waking up from a dream and not being convinced you've woken up to reality.

There's an interesting little quote I am posting below that your statement reminds me of:
"Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes." Carl Jung

True reality and true meaning are going to be discovered within the amazing reality of our mind's world.
 

COLORATURA

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I always feel like this, it actually keeps me from being happy sometimes(like in a circumstance that should* be making me happy).

Hahaha and yeah that's pretty much the description I use to describe myself as well I'm just a 'speck flying through space-time' . I wouldn't blame science though, especially since most sciences try to debate the link between us and reality, not just reality as we feel we perceive it.

This is also kinda why I like neurology and psychology, it aims to make sense of 'who we are' to judge everything.

I think true ignorance is when you're not aware of ignorance. I don't think you're ignorant, you wouldn't be asking these questions if you were.

Usually it doesn't depress me so much. I just hate having the constant conflict of being obsessed w/ understanding the world, and wanting to see past all that seems irrelevant, and realizing I can't. It's a frustration that is causing me (at times) to be even lazier than I am already. It is also causing me to second guess every single bit of information that I have ever encountered...even things I think I know & have put alot of thought into. Ultimately, I know I don't know shit. Ha.

I found this badass video that is kind-of making me realize that even if it isn't real, maybe that isn't the point...idk...still thinking about it. None-the-less...it is really cool:
http://www.break.com/index/carl-sagans-pale-blue-dot-2300622
 

Elfboy

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I think it's less about meaning, rather about as humans, how can we actually think we understand reality?
I think as a 4w5 INFP I have this issue, and it's the most berating thing.
It's like waking up from a dream and not being convinced you've woken up to reality.
I've noticed lots of Ego types (4s, 5s and 9s) tend to have a dazed, indecisive sense about them, like they are still trying to choose which side to pick and don't get have the confidence to stand behind a particularly side.
 

flameskull95

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I've noticed lots of Ego types (4s, 5s and 9s) tend to have a dazed, indecisive sense about them, like they are still trying to choose which side to pick and don't get have the confidence to stand behind a particularly side.

Like... impartiality? :huh:

There's an interesting little quote I am posting below that your statement reminds me of:
"Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes." Carl Jung
True reality and true meaning are going to be discovered within the amazing reality of our mind's world.

Love it :')
 

Standuble

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I've noticed lots of Ego types (4s, 5s and 9s) tend to have a dazed, indecisive sense about them, like they are still trying to choose which side to pick and don't get have the confidence to stand behind a particularly side.

Are you referring to young ones? When I discovered nihilism I was very confident and comfortable with it, like the final piece was clicking into place in a jigsaw puzzle I had been solving for years. Are you sure this is an enneagram issue and not just a case of Ne uncertainty, always wishing to leave the door open for a re-evaluation upon receiving new evidence?
 
A

A_priori

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If nothing matters, then humans would not be wired to love nor appreciate good.

The fact that we do, means that we are not, in our essence, dual creatures, even if we live in a dualistic, or trialistic, environ.

Our 'heart' (soul) leans toward something Good and Pure, even if part of our being--our earthly bodies and minds--is at home in our world, the part of us that isn't makes all the difference, skewing us toward something asymmetrical and otherworldly. We are unique in this as far as we know.

Therefore Nihilism is a fallacious notion, because humans always strive to betterment, or would if they could.

This is just your opinion.. There is absolutly nothing suggesting objectivity in your statements. Whose to say we have any purpose or intrinsic value? Human beings are greedy and needy. We created science, philosophy, religion as well as capital punishment ect..

What makes us any more important than the animals we eat or the fuel we deplete from our planet so that we can drive to the gym and run indoors lol

As far as I'm concerned, human beings could very well be the most ridiculous life forms on the face of this planet. Sure there are people out there that do right by others and care enough to give others there time, but why? What need is that person trying to meet ?

I don't think human beings are wired for love as much as I do for survival. I realize this sounds harsh and believe me I really wish we lived in a world that consisted of more people who understood their blind spots. A world where people cut the shit and said you know what, I'm actually quite greedy!

I have never once met a person who doesn't want to gain power or control in some form. I don't see how anyone could even argue the fact that we as people step over other people all day everyday to meet out needs. I think that it's just done inconspicuously because we live in such a world that is full of the wrong kind of exceptence. In other words we do it and it goes unnoticed, excepted and swallowed up by others. Nihilism is really about considering the hypothetical from a certain obtained knowlage.
 

Aesthete

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This is just your opinion.. There is absolutly nothing suggesting objectivity in your statements. Whose to say we have any purpose or intrinsic value? Human beings are greedy and needy. We created science, philosophy, religion as well as capital punishment ect..

What makes us any more important than the animals we eat or the fuel we deplete from our planet so that we can drive to the gym and run indoors lol

As far as I'm concerned, human beings could very well be the most ridiculous life forms on the face of this planet. Sure there are people out there that do right by others and care enough to give others there time, but why? What need is that person trying to meet ?

I don't think human beings are wired for love as much as I do for survival. I realize this sounds harsh and believe me I really wish we lived in a world that consisted of more people who understood their blind spots. A world where people cut the shit and said you know what, I'm actually quite greedy!

I have never once met a person who doesn't want to gain power or control in some form. I don't see how anyone could even argue the fact that we as people step over other people all day everyday to meet out needs. I think that it's just done inconspicuously because we live in such a world that is full of the wrong kind of exceptence. In other words we do it and it goes unnoticed, excepted and swallowed up by others. Nihilism is really about considering the hypothetical from a certain obtained knowlage.

Well, I agree that this is all true, but that doesn't necessarily lead to nihilism - just to a pessimistic outlook (which I agree with) or with Nietzschean optimism.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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This is just your opinion.. There is absolutly nothing suggesting objectivity in your statements. Whose to say we have any purpose or intrinsic value? Human beings are greedy and needy. We created science, philosophy, religion as well as capital punishment ect..

What makes us any more important than the animals we eat or the fuel we deplete from our planet so that we can drive to the gym and run indoors lol

As far as I'm concerned, human beings could very well be the most ridiculous life forms on the face of this planet. Sure there are people out there that do right by others and care enough to give others there time, but why? What need is that person trying to meet ?

I don't think human beings are wired for love as much as I do for survival. I realize this sounds harsh and believe me I really wish we lived in a world that consisted of more people who understood their blind spots. A world where people cut the shit and said you know what, I'm actually quite greedy!

I have never once met a person who doesn't want to gain power or control in some form. I don't see how anyone could even argue the fact that we as people step over other people all day everyday to meet out needs. I think that it's just done inconspicuously because we live in such a world that is full of the wrong kind of exceptence. In other words we do it and it goes unnoticed, excepted and swallowed up by others. Nihilism is really about considering the hypothetical from a certain obtained knowlage.

I agree with you that survival trumps love, and that if most people, given the ability to live for love, or just to live, they will choose just to live, to survive.

But that doesn't mean that living is a zero-sum game, which is what nihilists would argue--that nothing is what it's all about.

It is about something. If it weren't about something, then we would not care how we lived while we were living. The fact (i.e. this is objective) that humans for the most part crave love and crave good feelings shows that things actually do matter. If things didn't matter, then their would be as much value in being bad as being good. And there isn't. We are skewed to goodness and love no matter how you slice it.

Some people have become bad, yes, and might desire bad. But those are people who have had bad done to them, so they are not a reliable example of nihilism, just an example of how humanism can go terribly wrong.

Well, I agree that this is all true, but that doesn't necessarily lead to nihilism - just to a pessimistic outlook (which I agree with) or with Nietzschean optimism.

Good point. If it leads to a pessimistic outlook, as his post does, then that implies badness, because that individual is saying they expect something bad to happen or to come out of events. Since badness is counter to goodness, and goodness is the basic driver for most humans, then being pessimistic is not nihilistic, it's just the opposite of optimistic. Nihilism is more apathy.

Pessimism is to positive sum living as hate is to love; it's the same thing, basically.

Apathy is the opposite of positive sum living, just as apathy is opposite to love.

To prove his point, he needs to not care at all. And everyone needs to not care for nihilism to be a legitimate worldview. Once you care, or are pessimistic, you are showing that goodness has meaning and value.
 

Aesthete

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Good point. If it leads to a pessimistic outlook, as his post does, then that implies badness, because that individual is saying they expect something bad to happen or to come out of events. Since badness is counter to goodness, and goodness is the basic driver for most humans, then being pessimistic is not nihilistic, it's just the opposite of optimistic. Nihilism is more apathy.

Pessimism is to positive sum living as hate is to love; it's the same thing, basically.

Apathy is the opposite of positive sum living, just as apathy is opposite to love.

To prove his point, he needs to not care at all. And everyone needs to not care for nihilism to be a legitimate worldview. Once you care, or are pessimistic, you are showing that goodness has meaning and value.

No, pessimism isn't bad: the very origin of major religions is pessimism. It doesn't mean having no hope for the future, but realizing that there are plenty of wrong things in the world and trying to do something about them. Ultimately, by seeing all the bad things in the world and understanding they exist, we grow more compassion for those who suffer from them as well. Of course, one can get so lost in pessimistic thoughts that it becomes easy to forget that something actually has to be done.

Optimism is simply an 'everything is just fine' attitude, which can lead to ignoring the problems of the world.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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No, pessimism isn't bad: the very origin of major religions is pessimism. It doesn't mean having no hope for the future, but realizing that there are plenty of wrong things in the world and trying to do something about them. Ultimately, by seeing all the bad things in the world and understanding they exist, we grow more compassion for those who suffer from them as well. Of course, one can get so lost in pessimistic thoughts that it becomes easy to forget that something actually has to be done.

Optimism is simply an 'everything is just fine' attitude, which can lead to ignoring the problems of the world.

But my point is that if you can feel value, as you do when you feel pessimistic and optimistic, then that means that life gives you something to feel value about. The words optimistic, pessimistic, value, goal, all imply that we are seeking something good. Otherwise these words would not exist for us, or exist in such a way as to not imply value or care.

We do care. And that is why nihilism doesn't work as a worldview. At least for most people.
 

Aesthete

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But my point is that if you can feel value, as you do when you feel pessimistic and optimistic, then that means that life gives you something to feel value about. The words optimistic, pessimistic, value, goal, all imply that we are seeking something good. Otherwise these words would not exist for us, or exist in such a way as to not imply value or care.

We do care. And that is why nihilism doesn't work as a worldview. At least for most people.

Ah, ok, I misunderstood again. You are perfectly correct in what you say.
 

COLORATURA

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This is just your opinion.. There is absolutly nothing suggesting objectivity in your statements. Whose to say we have any purpose or intrinsic value? Human beings are greedy and needy. We created science, philosophy, religion as well as capital punishment ect..

What makes us any more important than the animals we eat or the fuel we deplete from our planet so that we can drive to the gym and run indoors lol

As far as I'm concerned, human beings could very well be the most ridiculous life forms on the face of this planet. Sure there are people out there that do right by others and care enough to give others there time, but why? What need is that person trying to meet ?

I don't think human beings are wired for love as much as I do for survival. I realize this sounds harsh and believe me I really wish we lived in a world that consisted of more people who understood their blind spots. A world where people cut the shit and said you know what, I'm actually quite greedy!

I have never once met a person who doesn't want to gain power or control in some form. I don't see how anyone could even argue the fact that we as people step over other people all day everyday to meet out needs. I think that it's just done inconspicuously because we live in such a world that is full of the wrong kind of exceptence. In other words we do it and it goes unnoticed, excepted and swallowed up by others. Nihilism is really about considering the hypothetical from a certain obtained knowlage.

But my point is that if you can feel value, as you do when you feel pessimistic and optimistic, then that means that life gives you something to feel value about. The words optimistic, pessimistic, value, goal, all imply that we are seeking something good. Otherwise these words would not exist for us, or exist in such a way as to not imply value or care.

We do care. And that is why nihilism doesn't work as a worldview. At least for most people.

Ah, ok, I misunderstood again. You are perfectly correct in what you say.

You all have points in what you are saying, but I think you missed the biggest point. I think that "good" & "bad" are not things we can necessarily define. Good & bad changes for each person. Those are subjective values. Yes, you can say most things/people in life will lean towards "good," but that will all depend on their own perception. Just as nihilists would see reality, the same applies to those subjective values.

It's not that I don't care about anything per se, just that I realize that there is this MUCH bigger perception that I can't even fathom. I realize I cannot fathom this, and therefore, doubt everything that I CAN fathom. It wouldn't make sense that I could know all that I think I know, while being aware of the infinite number of things that I know I could NEVER know. That is how these thoughts begin, for me anyhow. I am not thinking about humans & what we do wrong & how much we suck (even if we do), I am just taking myself & my own "knowledge" out of the equation.
 

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You all have points in what you are saying, but I think you missed the biggest point. I think that "good" & "bad" are not things we can necessarily define. Good & bad changes for each person. Those are subjective values. Yes, you can say most things/people in life will lean towards "good," but that will all depend on their own perception. Just as nihilists would see reality, the same applies to those subjective values.

It's not that I don't care about anything per se, just that I realize that there is this MUCH bigger perception that I can't even fathom. I realize I cannot fathom this, and therefore, doubt everything that I CAN fathom. It wouldn't make sense that I could know all that I think I know, while being aware of the infinite number of things that I know I could NEVER know. That is how these thoughts begin, for me anyhow. I am not thinking about humans & what we do wrong & how much we suck (even if we do), I am just taking myself & my own "knowledge" out of the equation.

I was waiting for somebody to say that. I'm a bit busy right now, but I'll probably (not certainly) go into it later.
 
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