[NT] How Do Rationals Deal With Emotions?

[Totenkindly]

I thought the "split brain" example was inspired.

For a long time that's what it felt like. I could deal with simply traced emotions as long as I was apart from others; once i started getting enmeshed in relationships I couldn't just retreat from, then things got very confusing for awhile.

My approach then was to ignore emotion until I couldn't; then let myself lash out or freak, hopefully to push people away; but if they would not let me off the hook then, I was just such a mess. Couldn't think clearly at all, completely overwhelmed. Realizing that i couldn't just avoid the emotions in the end forced me to wade through them and figure them out and deal much earlier.

I'm tired. My brain is fuzzy. I probably do not have a lot of unique things to add.

Except I liked Digest's comments too, about awareness extending beyond the emotions. I am very very aware of expressed or even mostly suppressed emotions (because they give me cues as to what someone else is going to do or what their motivations are) but they aren't the most important thing, just ONE thing, in the conflict to consider. So it's not that I do not see them, it's just that I place less importance on them overall than others might. But those who prioritize them would feel like I was ignoring the feelings. (And maybe earlier in my life I did do that, I was much more dismissive of emotions as "extra baggage" that would ruin the clarity of my and others' thinking... but as I got older, I valued them more and more.)

NTs also do objectify emotions a great deal. They are things to analyze and explore and look at and figure out, less things to own and wear and identify with. Like Lulah says, it takes some time to also embrace them as well as sift through the nuances of what exactly one is feeling, once one decides to accept their emotions as part of them rather than alien things.

 

[Gen]

I didn't think I had any "emotional problems" before I learned about my INTP label, then after analyzing the hell out of myself within that framework started to think I saw some. I now think that I was just stuck in some crazy Ti-loop trying to define my own emotional processes. Good luck with that by the way.

I know how I feel, it's whether I allow it that's the question. There are very few things I don't allow anymore, really. That situation is mostly when I think how I feel about something is unfair to someone else. (Jealousy is difficult for me, I try to ignore it, squash it down, deny it. ) Much of the world can act as if you're so unreasonable when you let your emotions be seen, so in the general public I may hide how I'm feeling. I had an ex-husband who caused the same reactions in me, but he's gone now. It helps to have someone that understands; someone that I can discuss it with so I can let it go, rather than let it eat away at me silently.

I could never become the explosive emotional type, but I'll tell you it is much more relaxing to know you can admit to some of those irrational emotions. You don't have to act on them, just acknowledge them. Otherwise they tie you up.

 

[RDF]

I've gone through periods of "stuffing down" emotions or conflicts and ignoring them, because I don't have the time or energy to deal with them or because they're too awkward or tangled. But that only works for so long. Those past emotions and conflicts can build in the background, leading to higher overall stress levels, irritability, and impulsiveness.

I imagine NTs do the same sort of "stuffing down", and perhaps even get very effective at finding ways to compensate for the build-up of stress (such as channeling the energy into increased productivity). But even with them, one can see stress building across time. I've seen plenty of NTs seemingly putting up a cool facade but meantime leaking stress and irritability in numerous obvious ways.

I often feel like I read the emotions of NTs better than they can themselves. It's a blind spot for them, but perceptive outsiders can read it in their face, their body language, their irritability, their passive-aggresiveness, etc. If emotions and conflicts are accumulating quickly, those emotions leak out through the cracks in the facade despite the NT's best effort to pretend they're not there.

 

[Spartacuss]

For a long time that's what it felt like. I could deal with simply traced emotions as long as I was apart from others; once i started getting enmeshed in relationships I couldn't just retreat from, then things got very confusing for awhile.

Except I liked Digest's comments too, about awareness extending beyond the emotions. I am very very aware of expressed or even mostly suppressed emotions (because they give me cues as to what someone else is going to do or what their motivations are) but they aren't the most important thing, just ONE thing, in the conflict to consider. So it's not that I do not see them, it's just that I place less importance on them overall than others might. But those who prioritize them would feel like I was ignoring the feelings.

QFT^3
Feelings are but one input, but others give them elevated priority and get upset if you don't do the same and talk about them constantly, allow them to derail your better intentions, etc.

 

[RDF]

As a self-involved INFP, there were plenty of times in my youth when I was feeling moody or alienated or just uncaring, and I resented people trying to pry into my emotions and get me to open up. So I understand NTs resenting intrusive questions about their emotions.

OTOH, I think it's important to remember that we all broadcast our moods. It's almost impossible to prevent it.

So if I'm trying to enlist someone in a project (such as pulling together a team for a work project, or even just inviting a friend on an outing at the county fair) and they're broadcasting moodiness or depression or obstinacy, then I may well ask them how they're feeling and if they're onboard for the project.

At such times, it would be nice if they were in touch with their emotions enough to provide some basic reassurances or let me know what's on their mind, like "Well, I'm a little out of it because the wife and I were arguing last night, but it'll pass"; or "Well, to be honest, I have some reservations about the project..."

If NTs are unable to access their own emotions and can't give me any insight into why they're looking and acting skittish, then there's always the fear that they'll be sideswiped by their emotions in the course of the project and that they'll derail the project; i.e., INTPs will get uncommunicative and passive-aggressive, ENTPs will get increasingly obstreperous and argumentative, etc.

IOW, good intentions don't count for much if people can't monitor and control their moods and they allow them to affect the project.

OTOH, I'll grant that NTs will hold up under pressure better than NFs. If I'm picking people for a especially difficult work project with a lot of pressure, then I'll often prefer NTs. NFs may come up with better answers at the start, but they may prove unreliable as the pressures increase. By comparison, NTs may be poorer company at the start, but they'll often tune out environmental stresses and keep performing reliably; they may even improve their performance under pressure. In those latter circumstances, I love that NT quality of being able to put aside the personal stuff and just dive wholeheartedly into the task at hand.

The normal disclaimers: These are raw stereotypes of course. Any one individual can defy expectations; and as people get older there tends to be a moderation and movement toward the middle ground by all types...

 

[Haphazard]

I've gone through periods of "stuffing down" emotions or conflicts and ignoring them, because I don't have the time or energy to deal with them or because they're too awkward or tangled. But that only works for so long. Those past emotions and conflicts can build in the background, leading to higher overall stress levels, irritability, and impulsiveness.

I imagine NTs do the same sort of "stuffing down", and perhaps even get very effective at finding ways to compensate for the build-up of stress (such as channeling the energy into increased productivity). But even with them, one can see stress building across time. I've seen plenty of NTs seemingly putting up a cool facade but meantime leaking stress and irritability in numerous obvious ways.

I often feel like I read the emotions of NTs better than they can themselves. It's a blind spot for them, but perceptive outsiders can read it in their face, their body language, their irritability, their passive-aggresiveness, etc. If emotions and conflicts are accumulating quickly, those emotions leak out through the cracks in the facade despite the NT's best effort to pretend they're not there.

I don't think it's stuffing down and pretending the problem doesn't exist rather than not wanting to share. This is the NT's OWN problem, you have nothing to do with it, so piss off! Or something along those lines. Leaking stress and irritability is going to happen until the problem is resolved and a side-effect as they're waiting for the opportunity to resolve whatever's bending them so out of shape. It seems to be a common NF mistake that NTs have no idea that they're emotional because that's not the case -- for the NT, the emotion is not at the top of their priority list, usually something to 'handle' rather than an end in and of itself.

It's not not knowing they're upset, it's not thinking that this is a problem. Then again, if left to stew enough, it can become a serious problem, but it's best not to let it get to that point.

 

[RDF]

This is the NT's OWN problem, you have nothing to do with it, so piss off! Or something along those lines.

Well, as I detailed in my following message, sometimes THEIR problem turns into MY problem.

As long as they can keep a handle on their mood and can maintain an even disposition (or whatever is required by the circumstances), then fine. I've got no complaint then.

 

[Haphazard]

Well, as I detailed in my following message, sometimes THEIR problem turns into MY problem.

As long as they can keep a handle on their mood and can maintain an even disposition (or whatever is required by the circumstances), then fine. I've got no complaint then.

And that's the problem; keeping other people out of the problem.

I think all NTs try to do this to some extent, but some are better at it than others.

 

[sakuraba]

I feel emotions but they always seem "dampened" in comparison to NF's who are dripping with emotion.

 

[runvardh]

I feel emotions but they always seem "dampened" in comparison to NF's who are dripping with emotion.

Eh, "dripping with emotion" isn't exactly all it's cracked up to be. Something in the middle with enough play to feel what's needed and solve what needs to be solved is much better.

 

[Firelie]

For me, it's just a lack of awareness. I've begun stopping myself every few hours and asking myself what I'm feeling at the moment, just so I have some connection with whatever feelings or emotions are going on under the surface.

As far as being aware of how people are affected by my decisions, I have absolutely no clue unless there is some sort of dramatic kickback.

 

[substitute]

I try to acknowledge them when I notice them but it's more a case of "know your enemy" for me, wanting to identify them so I'm aware of how they might encumber me and I can more effectively keep them out of my decision making process as much as possible. Or at least, figure out intellectually whether these particular ones ought to be given a say in the process.

Even a few months ago though, 99% of the time I didn't have any idea what I was feeling or if I even was feeling anything at all. I've been practicing though, since my last professional test revealed my Fi to be punier than the puniest thing in the puniverse, so I'm getting better at knowing how I feel. I still don't know what I'm supposed to do with it though because intellectually I still pretty strongly believe the best thing for me to do with them is just sorta neutralize them... I tend when I identify one, to sorta 'commune' with myself to figure out a way to realistically sorta take it into account so I'm not just repressing it, but yet also find a rational way to appease it that doesn't violate my rational convictions.

I don't think I could ever live with basing decisions on them, the most I can imagine me doing is allowing them to influence decisions, having rationally concluded that it's appropriate or constructive to do so.

 

[animenagai]

wow i am very surprised indeed. you INTJ's wrote some good shit right there.

 

[Dom]

Why is it that so many thinkers view emotions as irrational? Why do they consider it irrational to include them in the decision making process? Surely learning how to ignore them does not help you grow your life into a happy one, merely perhaps a numb/neutral emotional state? Is that all a T wants? Comfortably Numb?

So often I read thinkers posts and they are dripping with suspicion and disdain for their own emotional responses to things, we need not even talk about their response to us feelers, why?

Do I trust my emotions to know exactly what is best for me? You can bet your last dollar I don't! Do they influence my decision making process? Of course they do, (well I am a feeler) but they give me information about which types of activities and which options may add toward living a happy life.

The problem for many NT's I guess may be one of control, if they would admit it. Acting upon your emotions normally leaves one open and vulnerable to another person in some way, whether we are talking about relationship, friendships or even which job we want. I think many NT's hate to hand people they don't fully trust such a privileged position over them. I know I dislike it a lot. However, unless one is happy to limit their contact with other humans to a very low level then one has to be prepared to take risks with being vulnerable.

In discussing this with some T's I find they view their emotions as coming from somewhere outside of themselves. We each have a core that we consider to be our conscious selves. Our souls if you like (in it's original meaning; which was the decision making part of the human psyche). I thin T's see their emotions as something intruding (or trying to) into the decision making parts of their psychology, F's consider it a natural part of their center.

I'm not sure and of course I'm biased by my own preference, but I can't see how reacting to every emotion as though they are the enemy can lead to a contented and happy life. A peaceful one at best perhaps; if one eventually manages to rout or control their emotions but peace is not the same as contentedness or happiness. Some would argue that that is all they want though and I'm sorry but I think they are living under a self deception, they merely found trying to live a happy life too difficult or the process of become vulnerable too frightening and so retreat to comfortably numb. Then there is a desperate attempt to convince themselves and others who care about them, that this state is all they have ever wanted. I believe they fear it is all they can achieve and so stop trying to find a happier life and so start to convince themselves that a numb life is a happy life.

If that is the only way t's manage to be at peace or content then it's not for me to try to force them out of it, however, I do think it's not what I'd want and I do think they may find happiness if they allowed that guttural emotional part of them inform them of what they like and want out of life.

 

[substitute]

Hm, I don't think you really understood what I said, Dom

Quite simply, you can't do something whilst simultaneously doing its opposite. There are certain things that a human mind can do that are very useful and important for society and the individual, which are best done in a detached state of mind. It's important for society to have a certain number of people who are very good at doing this, and to get very good at doing that you tend to be a person who values doing that above doing its opposite, and it tends to entail not being as good at the opposite.

Like if you wanted to be a guitar maestro, you'd get there by practicing an awful lot on the guitar, but possibly at the expense of your cooking skills. That doesn't mean you disdain cooking or cooks, does it?

For me to think the way you think and have the same attitude towards my emotions as you do towards yours (and perhaps mine too, I dunno), I'd have to not be me. That would mean I wouldn't be able to do half the things I do easily and instinctively, which I value being able to do. You wouldn't want to turn into me, because it'd mean sacrificing the things YOU have put importance on in your life and become good at.

There are pros and cons to every way of being. My autistic daughter has obvious limitations in her interpersonal relations, but she wouldn't want to sacrifice her skills in other areas that are above those of non-autistic people, in order to be a darling of society. And I wouldn't want her to either, I accept and love her as she is, for both her strengths and her flaws.

 

[Jack Flak]

Level of smart in above post: Hi.

Level of smart in below post: Also Hi.

 

[substitute]

It's kinda like a judge presiding over a court hearing. Justice is paramount, and the judge cannot let the fact that he feels sorry for the defendant blind him to his duty to carry out the law, and he also can't allow his disgust or other feelings about the defendant to prejudice him when listening to the evidence. he has to learn to identify and be aware of his feelings SO THAT he can put them aside and ensure that they don't interfere with the dispensation of justice and the law.

I find that the way that works for me to be fairest with other people is to think a bit like the judge. In order not to behave in a way that violates my beliefs, my principles and knowledge, it's easiest if I don't allow my feelings to interfere with the process of living by those things.

It doesn't mean I automatically think that there is no place in my life for feelings. It just means that the feelings are informed by my intellect.

 

[animenagai]

i agree with dom. emotions ARE rational. acting out of emotions despite evidence of a bad decision may not be, but understanding others' is something else altogether. punch someone in the face and i guarantee you that they'll be pissed off. not all that unpredictable or whatever.

if anything, see it as part of the human condition. this human condition is under strict rules according to many scientists. one may argue that it is hard to gather all the required information to fully understand others' emotions (the classic subjectivity argument) but there are good general rules one could take. if one can gather more information about someone, eg. tendency to to vent anger, not talking when depressed... these rules can be refined.

in short, understanding emotions can become a technical skill that anyone can master. i get annoyed when people (particularly T types) demonize and critique the F function, because it really isn't.

 

[INA]

Hm, I don't think you really understood what I said, Dom

Quite simply, you can't do something whilst simultaneously doing its opposite. There are certain things that a human mind can do that are very useful and important for society and the individual, which are best done in a detached state of mind. It's important for society to have a certain number of people who are very good at doing this, and to get very good at doing that you tend to be a person who values doing that above doing its opposite, and it tends to entail not being as good at the opposite.

Like if you wanted to be a guitar maestro, you'd get there by practicing an awful lot on the guitar, but possibly at the expense of your cooking skills. That doesn't mean you disdain cooking or cooks, does it?

For me to think the way you think and have the same attitude towards my emotions as you do towards yours (and perhaps mine too, I dunno), I'd have to not be me. That would mean I wouldn't be able to do half the things I do easily and instinctively, which I value being able to do. You wouldn't want to turn into me, because it'd mean sacrificing the things YOU have put importance on in your life and become good at.

There are pros and cons to every way of being. My autistic daughter has obvious limitations in her interpersonal relations, but she wouldn't want to sacrifice her skills in other areas that are above those of non-autistic people, in order to be a darling of society. And I wouldn't want her to either, I accept and love her as she is, for both her strengths and her flaws.

Yet again: +1

 

[substitute]

I thought this thread was talking about how NT's deal with THEIR OWN emotions??

Of course two ENFP's are likely to agree that NT's are silly and their opinions on feeling smell of poop.

The critical thing to understand about my position is that I have not said at any point that I don't think it's important to understand both my own and others' feelings, nor to take them into account when making decisions.

Maybe I'll address it in more detail when I've got time later... if I get time