[MBTI General] INTP + INFJ

[sulfit]

In terms of socionics INFJs and INTPs are in relations of benefit according to this intertype relations chart.
INFJ is benefactor of INTP (in socionics these types change to IEI and LII).

 

[COLORATURA]

[MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION]

i think i figured it out(at least partially). INFJs seem to be bit hard to approach, they behave in this weird way, like creating some walls by being distant(especially physically) in many ways at the beginning(dunno if they do it consciously or unconsciously). but yet, they seem to want someone who is more proactive(which ENTPs and ENFPs usually are) and can get past these obstacles that they create. and well, i cant do that because i see the obstacles, am pretty hypersensitive about peoples boundaries in general and just can find my way through them. so, because they create these obstacles which i cant get through, there cant really be any sort of intimacy happening, hence lack of sparks, even tho they like my mind and i like theirs -> friends. also i think the thing you mentioned about judging quick just makes it worse, i mean im pretty sure that i could navigate my way through the obstacles, if i had more time to do so..

I think this really helped me figure out this INFJ I have been talking to. Maybe, possibly...anyway.

I am not sure if that is it exactly, but I didn't want more time to figure it out. It was killing my ego to have to "chase" him.

 

[INTP]

I think this really helped me figure out this INFJ I have been talking to. Maybe, possibly...anyway.

I am not sure if that is it exactly, but I didn't want more time to figure it out. It was killing my ego to have to "chase" him.

yea, but i dont think "chasing" is the right word(chasing them will make them run away), following precisely the correct protocols(about how much to chase, when to let them come to you, how much to show interest and when, how to behave in certain situations, how to respond to them etc etc) would be better way of putting it imo.

i do understand that acting certain way etc is needed for all types, but it feels like with INFJs those protocols are very strict, yes you passed or no thanks(as in being very black and white about the value judgments). and not being only strict about the protocols, in my quite limited experience, they tend to be passive as hell and not give much signs about whether you do something by the correct protocol or not, or maybe im just blind to INFJ cues about this. but what ever, as intriguing as some of them might be, they are too passive and play some games which i cant be arsed to play(or more like figure out what the heck is going on, which i think is the game that i have to play and they are just the judges who gives the rating of my performance and not even play it with me..), so they can play their games alone or come to me(which i doubt they do). i want someone who i can dance with(better yet if the other person wants to do some silly dances alone to make me laugh), not someone who is in the corner silently and still just to rate my dancing anyways..

 

[COLORATURA]

yea, but i dont think "chasing" is the right word(chasing them will make them run away), following precisely the correct protocols(about how much to chase, when to let them come to you, how much to show interest and when, how to behave in certain situations, how to respond to them etc etc) would be better way of putting it imo.

i do understand that acting certain way etc is needed for all types, but it feels like with INFJs those protocols are very strict, yes you passed or no thanks(as in being very black and white about the value judgments). and not being only strict about the protocols, in my quite limited experience, they tend to be passive as hell and not give much signs about whether you do something by the correct protocol or not, or maybe im just blind to INFJ cues about this. but what ever, as intriguing as some of them might be, they are too passive and play some games which i cant be arsed to play(or more like figure out what the heck is going on, which i think is the game that i have to play and they are just the judges who gives the rating of my performance and not even play it with me..), so they can play their games alone or come to me(which i doubt they do). i want someone who i can dance with(better yet if the other person wants to do some silly dances alone to make me laugh), not someone who is in the corner silently and still just to rate my dancing anyways..

Yeah, "chasing" is my own definition. I suppose I feel that way b/c I am tired of trying to figure this certain one out. It feels like a never-ending chase. I used to be married to an INFJ & I had NO problems understanding him. Of course, I knew him for many, many years.

 

[emmapeel]

Met my INTP 7,5 years ago, started dating 6,5 years ago, started living together 6 years ago, got married 3,5 years ago. We had our ups and downs, but I'd consider us a very happy, solid couple. I love that he's honest and loyal. I love that he let's me run the household in the way I want it to be run. I love that he's willing to listen to my emotional rants. He loves that I understand him, that I'm the only one with whom he can truly be himself. He loves that I organise big parts of his life so he can focus on his job. And we are a perfect team in analysing the odd behaviour of the people around us The F vs T thing isn't such a big issue, maybe because my NJ-ness makes me pretty analytical, dunno. The J vs P is sometimes a problem, though.

A typical, perfect weekend day in our marriage would be waking up, him making coffee which we drink in bed together with our two cats. Then we will probably make a list of possible activities for the day. Not a real to-do-list, more like a delicious menu to choose from. Apart from maybe taking a walk in the afternoon, we'll probably shut the outer world out completely. We'll play a video game, read a book sitting on the couch together, have some deep talk about something, drink some beer/wine, order a pizza and watch some talent show. The perfect way to recharge for another busy work week.

 

[Salomé]

yea, but i dont think "chasing" is the right word(chasing them will make them run away), following precisely the correct protocols(about how much to chase, when to let them come to you, how much to show interest and when, how to behave in certain situations, how to respond to them etc etc) would be better way of putting it imo.

If it requires detailed attention to protocol, one struggles to see how they could ever get together...

Maybe just write this one off as "not being that into you." At least they are unambiguous about letting you know.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Why, then, do they stalk me?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

yea, but i dont think "chasing" is the right word(chasing them will make them run away), following precisely the correct protocols(about how much to chase, when to let them come to you, how much to show interest and when, how to behave in certain situations, how to respond to them etc etc) would be better way of putting it imo.

i do understand that acting certain way etc is needed for all types, but it feels like with INFJs those protocols are very strict, yes you passed or no thanks(as in being very black and white about the value judgments). and not being only strict about the protocols, in my quite limited experience, they tend to be passive as hell and not give much signs about whether you do something by the correct protocol or not, or maybe im just blind to INFJ cues about this. but what ever, as intriguing as some of them might be, they are too passive and play some games which i cant be arsed to play(or more like figure out what the heck is going on, which i think is the game that i have to play and they are just the judges who gives the rating of my performance and not even play it with me..), so they can play their games alone or come to me(which i doubt they do). i want someone who i can dance with(better yet if the other person wants to do some silly dances alone to make me laugh), not someone who is in the corner silently and still just to rate my dancing anyways..

I'm wondering how you came to this conclusion. I realize I don't speak for all INFJ's, but what strikes me about this conclusion is just how perfectly opposite it is from how I think and interact socially. Fwiw I will speak from how I think and then attempt to relate a sense of MBTI theory to be relevant to more than one individual.

There is definitely a social disconnect issue for me, but I find it results more from too much ability to adapt to different communication styles. It is difficult to internalize normalized communication and behaviors. I am more comfortable communicating with people outside the norm because it starts with a clean slate. I work with special needs students and can learn a wide range of communication styles, and so am generally less offended by others based on differences in communication. This does not generally put people at ease who operate from normalized social assumptions. I cannot play the subtle games required for interaction - especially in romantic interactions. I think people don't know how to approach me, and they don't know what to say because I can't talk about fashion, sports, or most ritualized topics. I smile at people and am known for being accepting, but still that doesn't result in people approaching me. I have no protocols for people to follow, and my main issue with interaction is to maintain a sense of my own desires, needs, expectations, because I can sincerely not be able to articulate what these are. I can get easily confused socially because I don't think in terms of a single system. There are so many systems occurring that I have to understand far more in order to reach a conclusion than people who operate from a single set of assumptions.

This is my MBTI hypothesis about how INFJ could operate in a generalized manner. Ni causes people to have abstract, core concepts about how the universe works and can apply these in a fluid and ever changing manner depending on context, so understanding the INJ's perspective would necessitate having an understanding of their core assumptions. Fe is an externalized sense of subjective systems and so there is not an internalized, personal expectation about one form of communication or interaction. Fe is the social application which is filtered through some fluid core concept. This would not be detailed and systematic, but much more fluid. It would not be something representing rigid protocol.

I may need to come back to this because I don't think my third paragraph represents what I am trying to say, but it is a start. Anyway, my lunch is ready, so I'll be back later...

One more thought...
People who operate from a normalized set of social and communicative assumptions work within a larger system of assumptions. As an INFJ I feel that I operate with numerous smaller systems that are inter-related, but not as comprehensive because each one is invented as I meet a new individual. My mind later takes Ni-Ti loops to construct order and interrelationships between these myriad systems. This is why INFJ can have insights that others miss, but can also miss social cues that others consider simple and obvious. INFJ attempts to continually adapt to the "protocols" of others rather than creating one complex set of their own. I would say that to get close to someone like me, it helps to speed up the process of helping me to become familiar with the system you operate from, and so clear communication is desired.

 

[cafe]

My INTP pretty nearly stalked me. It took me awhile to catch on. He just always seemed to be wherever I was right before I went to dinner. Then he walked me to the cafeteria and we ate together and hung out until he had to go to work or the dorm curfew (we were at Bible college), whichever came first. I'd already kind of decided I was marrying him, so it was okay. I'd more or less decided it by the end of our first conversation.

The only ambiguity we ever had was when, early on, he sent me this card that said "friends" on it about a billion times. I freaked out at first, thinking he didn't like me romantically. Then I talked to some people that knew him and they told me he was probably trying not to scare me off. (I guess his courtship style had scared girls off before. Stalking. Big surprise.) I decided I would want to be his friend even if he was a woman (not my preferred gender), so it wasn't unethical for me to continue to be his friend even though my interest was not strictly platonic. He did not act as though his interest was platonic either, so I just waited to see.

He proposed sooner than I expected or thought was prudent, but engagements aren't binding and I knew it was against school rules to get married during the school year, so I went with it.

I did watch for deal-breakers during our engagement. I didn't want to end up getting divorced. There were two times when he was on the cusp, so to speak. Both times I was satisfied with his choices.

I know it sounds stupid to say I just knew, almost immediately. I thought it was stupid at the time, but the feeling was very strong. It's still very strong and it really never should have worked. We were too young. We were too poor. We had kids too soon. We had too many kids. Two of our kids are 'special needs.' But I like him. I trust him. I respect him. I want him. And he doesn't try to hide from me. He actively seeks me out, not all the time. A guy has to keep up with current events and play WoW, after all, but he likes making me laugh. He likes telling me about articles he thinks I'd be interested in reading. I still have to keep telling him not to grope me in front of the kids. For an INTP, I'm pretty sure that means he likes me.

I never saw the sense in leading someone on if I was pretty sure I wasn't interested in them. I did not play hard to get or anything like that when I felt it was right. I didn't chase, but I didn't run away. I didn't share my every thought, but I didn't mislead. The only 'obstacles' I put up was simply observing as objectively as I could despite my feelings of infatuation and lust, to determine whether or not I thought it was going to work long term. I almost always try to keep the long term future in mind. It's my nature to do so. Otherwise, I was pretty much all up on him.

Not saying it's like that for all INFJs. No idea how it looked to anyone else or how many guys may have thought that we had potential. Probably not very many because I've never been what most people would call hot or anything like that. But that's how it was for me.

 

[cafe]

As far as the cues thing goes, I wouldn't really want to give too much feedback in a dating situation because I would not want someone acting in a way that might be contrary to their nature because it is nearly impossible and usually terribly painful to maintain behaviors that are contrary to one's nature over the course of a lifetime. Ugh. That probably doesn't explain it very well.

I was not unreceptive with my INTP. I welcomed him. Everyone could tell we were both twitterpated. It was commented on. I think the word was 'sappy.'

 

[Nicki]

The INTPs I know are infatuated with my xNFJ friends.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

How do you know it's not love?

 

[the state i am in]

a few things.

ntps are probably the easiest to communicate with. but not necessarily to build agreements and advance them. which feels like a necessity for commitment.

meanwhile, i think infjs, and i know i am, can be super fucking ambiguous. like the most ambiguous of all. and part of it is that, for me, i'm making decisions on the wrong scale much of the time (one reason i am so drawn toward ntps, as they help me correct this and, when trustworthy, provide a sense of actuality that makes infjs feel safe and complete. because ntps know how to test shit). it makes collaboration, a really high ideal for me, so natural and effortless and nearby. as a result, i am generally quite willing to learn their language so that i can meet them in their own understanding too. this is a big part of the nfj skill set.

as for protocols in romance games, i sympathize. it's not really a formulaic process as much as it is a game. you have to test others. and you're testing them based on your ideas of what you want and not JUST how they act, the effects that they produce within you (which annoys many p types, but it's how we know where we are going, and we have to trust that because it's how we are who we are). the socionics romance styles did a really good job for me of elucidating some of the annoying push/pull games i will tend to play.

i think the other piece of the puzzle is that we don't want to hurt anyone, and sometimes that can be more irritating than it is worth because we take too many precautions and avoid too many things which can lead to the aforementioned ambiguity and feeling of being led on. at the same time, we generally have some good ideas of what we're looking for, and sometimes we will skip a lot of the steps because we fucking KNOW. but that's contingent on a lot of life factors that are outside of the realm of just how you and i relate. which comes from maturity that was gained through experience or through accepting conditions of adulthood and making strong clear choices about what you want in life come what may. if those aren't in place, it is difficult to imagine how we could be in that just knowing state. it's possible 9w1s are better at this than other infj types. 4s and 5s make you work for it. they are more likely to experience their feelings as traps and are more hung up on the idea of being false to themselves, when that idea of self is less grounded and less stable.

 

[sulfit]

Socionics predicts that INTP and INFJ pairing will follow the course of benefit relations where INFJ (IEI) will be benefactor to INTP (LII): Benefit

Relations between INTP and ENFJ are described as Semi-Duality.

 

[Salomé]

ntps are probably the easiest to communicate with. but not necessarily to build agreements and advance them. which feels like a necessity for commitment.

Agree.

meanwhile, i think infjs, and i know i am, can be super fucking ambiguous. like the most ambiguous of all.

I know what you mean here. And it's the annoying (from my perspective) rather than the intriguing, kind of ambiguity (the Ne kind).

and part of it is that, for me, i'm making decisions on the wrong scale much of the time (one reason i am so drawn toward ntps, as they help me correct this and, when trustworthy, provide a sense of actuality that makes infjs feel safe and complete. because ntps know how to test shit). it makes collaboration, a really high ideal for me, so natural and effortless and nearby.

Maybe this is what INTP men like.... Men like to be useful, right? I just find this kind of expectation draining. I'm not crazy about being useful.

and sometimes we will skip a lot of the steps because we fucking KNOW. but that's contingent on a lot of life factors that are outside of the realm of just how you and i relate. which comes from maturity that was gained through experience or through accepting conditions of adulthood and making strong clear choices about what you want in life come what may.

And sometimes it's simple prejudice and common or garden J close-mindedness.

 

[A_priori]

I think if the INFJ is female this could work really well. Having the same primary instinctual varient helps quite a bit also!

 

[the state i am in]

...

what makes you feel that you need to always play/be the villain?

i'm recently learning to appreciate one of the "habits" in the book "7 habits for highly effective people" that says "seek first to understand, and then to be understood." it seems like a useful recipe for recognizing the feeling of being trapped, misunderstood, and unappreciated is not necessarily because of others but often comes from us--our own traps, misunderstandings, and inability to appreciate others and ourselves. cue the radiohead song "just."

 

[Salomé]

what makes you feel that you need to always play/be the villain?

i'm recently learning to appreciate one of the "habits" in the book "7 habits for highly effective people" that says "seek first to understand, and then to be understood." it seems like a useful recipe for recognizing the feeling of being trapped, misunderstood, and unappreciated is not necessarily because of others but often comes from us--our own traps, misunderstandings, and inability to appreciate others and ourselves. cue the radiohead song "just."

lol.
I don't really care if you don't understand me. It's all part of life's rich tapestry.
If you consider someone agreeing with you villainous, maybe you need to examine yourself?
INFJ lectures are another of the deeply unsexy things about them. At least from the perspective of this INTP.

 

[the state i am in]

i didn't say i didn't understand you. textual fundamentalism is about maintaining a sense of control. click your heels together three times.

i'm being pushy, but you are the one who asked to play. there is no tapestry without a feeling of belonging. there is no beauty without mirrors. the warmth comes from your own body. difference means nothing without identity. just a 1 or a 0 in a vast abyss.

 

[Salomé]

Just more of that irritating INFJ-flavoured ambiguity then?
Thx for the demo.