[NT] INTP + INTJ relationships, do they work?

[OrenIIshi]

Hahahha, well...I'm an ENTJ and had to drop the news to my INTP darling. I told him: "Am I a closet girlfriend?, we see each other almost every night, we have dinner, work on some personal projects together, meet with my friends and they invite us to join them. We go to the Opera with your parents, we have dinner with your parents, I go to church with your sister....we take care of your grandma every now and then, we're making plans to visit my family for the holidays. We've been doing all this for almost 8 months: WE ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP!!! and you STILL HAVEN'T TOLD YOUR ROTARY CLUB FRIENDS YOU'RE WITH SOMEONE!!!!!??????" (hence I am not invited to the meetings/parties/dinners). His answer was: "Erhh..I am still not sure if I want to marry you", as if it takes that to publicly accept you are in a relationship ¿What does it take for an INTP to realize/accept and reconcile with the fact that he is in a relationship?

 

[INTPness]

Hahahha, well...I'm an ENTJ and had to drop the news to my INTP darling. I told him: "Am I a closet girlfriend?, we see each other almost every night, we have dinner, work on some personal projects together, meet with my friends and they invite us to join them. We go to the Opera with your parents, we have dinner with your parents, I go to church with your sister....we take care of your grandma every now and then, we're making plans to visit my family for the holidays. We've been doing all this for almost 8 months: WE ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP!!! and you STILL HAVEN'T TOLD YOUR ROTARY CLUB FRIENDS YOU'RE WITH SOMEONE!!!!!??????" (hence I am not invited to the meetings/parties/dinners). His answer was: "Erhh..I am still not sure if I want to marry you", as if it takes that to publicly accept you are in a relationship ¿What does it take for an INTP to realize/accept and reconcile with the fact that he is in a relationship?

He knows that if he says, "Yes, we're officially in a relationship", then it's quite possible that all the other "expectations" will open up like floodgates (i.e., "OK, now that we're in a relationship, I need you to do A, B, C, and D.") Some are small daily demands, others may be big picture, life-adjustment demands. I don't know if you personally would do that or not, but I know for a fact that there are people out there who do it. And I'm not falling for it. I want my freedom. I want a partner who allows me space and independence, not a mother who demands things from me. Therefore, I'm keeping you at a distance to preserve my introversion (and, in turn, my sanity). Once you've fallen for it once, you don't fall for it again. I'd rather err on the side of "caution" (tell you we're NOT in a relationship even if we functionally are, rather than say, "Oh yeah, we're definitely in a relationship!" when I'm not entirely sure I want that with you yet).

For an introvert, relationships can be extremely taxing, demanding, and consuming. If you aren't careful, the relationship will chew you up and spit you out and 3 years later you'll be thinking, "I'm not even myself anymore. How did it get to this? I'm not happy and I'm not doing the things that I enjoy and I love." So, it's sometimes a preservation thing. I'm going to proceed slowly and cautiously to make darn sure that I maintain my own sense of self and my own happiness. The absolute last thing I want from a relationship is to be changed or warped into someone else's mold, expectations, or demands. Let me give those things to you freely, of my own volition. Not because I said, "Yes, we're in a relationship" and so you then thought you had permission to have your way with me. It doesn't work like that. I'm still an independent individual. If you want me happy, you'll respect that. If you don't want me happy, well then go ahead and do your thing - place your silly demands on me. We'll probably crash and burn and you'll be left wondering why. Demands and expectations are basically "conditional love" - it's basically a way of saying, "I need you to behave like this - the way I want you to behave - or else we're going to have problems." Well, simply put, I don't want to behave according to your pre-set conditions. I want to be me. No more, no less. So, no, we're not in a relationship until I see that we're both mature enough to give each other space to be individuals.

 

[rav3n]

Hahahha, well...I'm an ENTJ and had to drop the news to my INTP darling. I told him: "Am I a closet girlfriend?, we see each other almost every night, we have dinner, work on some personal projects together, meet with my friends and they invite us to join them. We go to the Opera with your parents, we have dinner with your parents, I go to church with your sister....we take care of your grandma every now and then, we're making plans to visit my family for the holidays. We've been doing all this for almost 8 months: WE ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP!!! and you STILL HAVEN'T TOLD YOUR ROTARY CLUB FRIENDS YOU'RE WITH SOMEONE!!!!!??????" (hence I am not invited to the meetings/parties/dinners). His answer was: "Erhh..I am still not sure if I want to marry you", as if it takes that to publicly accept you are in a relationship ¿What does it take for an INTP to realize/accept and reconcile with the fact that he is in a relationship?

I'd ditch him.

 

[OrenIIshi]

He knows that if he says, "Yes, we're officially in a relationship", then it's quite possible that all the other "expectations" will open up like floodgates (i.e., "OK, now that we're in a relationship, I need you to do A, B, C, and D.") Some are small daily demands, others may be big picture, life-adjustment demands. I don't know if you personally would do that or not, but I know for a fact that there are people out there who do it. And I'm not falling for it. I want my freedom. I want a partner who allows me space and independence, not a mother who demands things from me. Therefore, I'm keeping you at a distance to preserve my introversion (and, in turn, my sanity). Once you've fallen for it once, you don't fall for it again. I'd rather err on the side of "caution" (tell you we're NOT in a relationship even if we functionally are, rather than say, "Oh yeah, we're definitely in a relationship!" when I'm not entirely sure I want that with you yet).

For an introvert, relationships can be extremely taxing, demanding, and consuming. If you aren't careful, the relationship will chew you up and spit you out and 3 years later you'll be thinking, "I'm not even myself anymore. How did it get to this? I'm not happy and I'm not doing the things that I enjoy and I love." So, it's sometimes a preservation thing. I'm going to proceed slowly and cautiously to make darn sure that I maintain my own sense of self and my own happiness. The absolute last thing I want from a relationship is to be changed or warped into someone else's mold, expectations, or demands. Let me give those things to you freely, of my own volition. Not because I said, "Yes, we're in a relationship" and so you then thought you had permission to have your way with me. It doesn't work like that. I'm still an independent individual. If you want me happy, you'll respect that. If you don't want me happy, well then go ahead and do your thing - place your silly demands on me. We'll probably crash and burn and you'll be left wondering why. Demands and expectations are basically "conditional love" - it's basically a way of saying, "I need you to behave like this - the way I want you to behave - or else we're going to have problems." Well, simply put, I don't want to behave according to your pre-set conditions. I want to be me. No more, no less. So, no, we're not in a relationship until I see that we're both mature enough to give each other space to be individuals.

With ENTJ's It's all hardcore. We think hardcore, care hardcore and play hardcore. And that's what fires you INTP's up and sends you charging into battle.
But with people we care about all this translates into being protective, thoughtful, and attentive. Is it too much to ask for the same in return?, if not...aren't INTP's giving up to their tendency of self absorption and of being self-centered?

An ENTJ's need for control isn't rooted in satisfaction from giving orders like some INTPs might perceive. ENTJs are prone to accepting things they get from reliable sources (and they consider their intuitions a reliable source most of the time) as fact and incorporating those facts into their plans instantly. It's part of the ENTJ's constant adaptive planning and skill for optimum utilisation of resources. As an ENTJ I can't sit in the background once I have commited myself to a project, and I am comfortable with fore-sighting the potential it has and I act accordingly. I don't place demands on anyone because usually I can do whatever I need to get done by myself. It's just a thing of honesty. For me, caring and respect are not negotiable and should come together hand by hand. I won't "make" him tell his friends, but If he doesn't any time soon I will record it as evidence that things are in the wrong path and that I should re-direct my ship acordingly (@Metaphor:trying not to give in to the famous ENTJ fierce and radical desition making tendency). If you care for me, and have made it obvious in some parcels of life, ...why do something that looks to me like you are "keeping your options open"...and if so, then don't expect ME NOT TO! , specially when the INTP in question has witnessed how I've explained several of the people I had been dating that I wasn't available anymore. Denying my existence to an important part of his life doesn't show much respect for what I have offered from my side. ENTJs don't bully because they respect the intuitions of others. We just need to reach a fair agreement.

And as for letting a relationship chew you up and spit you out and 3 years later think that your are not yourself anymore, remember that you didn't really know what being "yourself" was in the first place no one really understands INTPs, not even the INTP itself. You can't handle your life based on a few past experiences. If that happens, it might be because you like to be comforted and sometimes let yourself go with the flow. You guys are usually chaotic and deep thinkers, and that stresses you...so you go and let someone else take care of every day's logistics management of your own life while you retreat to your inner worlds,...then, you miss having the control over not really having the control over your life

 

[INTPness]

Just know that if it doesn't work out, it's just because you guys were different and wanted different things. It's not because you were right and he was wrong.

ENTJ's are hardcore. That's good. It can also be overbearing. INTP's are laid back and value autonomy. That's good. But, it can also seem like we're not as committed. Like you said, it's all about if the 2 individuals can reach a fair agreement. What may seem fair to him, might not seem fair to you - and vice versa. Better to have that "where are we going" talk sooner rather than later. Force his hand. Force him to tell you what he is expecting out of this long term.

I'm sure that him seeing you tell other people that you're committed to him and only him is very much appreciated. He probably admires and respects that loyalty and that dedication. And it probably makes his love (like?) for you that much stronger. And it probably moves him closer to having that same commitment to you. If he sees you putting all of your chips on the table, it probably makes him think, "OK, we're in this together!"

But again, I reiterate, what INTP's are "looking for" isn't always the same thing as what ENTJ's are looking for. Please understand this. We want someone who actually places value on our individualism because, at the core, that's who we really are as people. So someone who doesn't place value on our individualism, doesn't place value on us. It goes hand-in-hand. Someone who continually demands this, that, and the other thing from me (i.e., I'm supposed to take their own schedule and agenda as if it were my own) is clearly not listening to me in regards to my desire for individualism and a certain level of freedom. And it's not black-and-white, there are levels of freedom, and we're not stupid - we understand that we have to meet people half way to make things work. But, I absolutely refuse, as an autonomous adult, to feel like mommy or daddy is watching me and that they might be mad at me when I get home. I don't say this in a derogatory way, I say it because I've experienced it first hand. I don't want to be ruled over or to be in a dictatorship, I want to you to be you and me to be me. If who I am works for you, then great. Let's make it happen. If it doesn't and you have the ever-present desire to "change me" and "tell me what I'm doing wrong" bubbling up inside of you, then it's probably best we go our own ways - so that you can be you and I can be me (exactly how we wanted it from the beginning). That's the thing with an INTP - we're going to be individuals and we're going to be who we are and we will side-step and work around overzealous demands placed on us. It's up to the other person if this will happen "in a relationship" or if we'll have to end so that we can reclaim it "out of a relationship". Either way, we will have it. It's who we are. You wouldn't want to be in a relationship with us when our autonomy had been sacrificed - you'd be completely miserable because we'd fight, scrap, and claw the whole way.

All of this does not mean that we aren't capable of compromising. When we put our heart into something, we're in it! We just have to decide if this is the thing we want to go forward with all the while asking ourselves, "Is this going to work LONG TERM or not?" We can compromise and we can meet half way, but sometimes directive types think half-way is 90/10 instead of 50/50. INTP's won't buy into it. We're not the blonde chick that will fall for anything. We know what we're getting into and if we don't like what the future looks like, we won't commit to it.

 

[rav3n]

My advice isn't based on being an ENTJ or not, being in a relationship with an INTP or not. If both of you step outside the MBTI stereotypes and look at this from a human perspective, you have a guy with commitment issues. You have yourself with a need and goal, that his commitment issues won't budge on after 8 months. I think he's full of crap about the relationship to marriage transition unless he's 12 years old and still believes in Disney movies.

Most adults realize that relationships don't always end with marriage. It's part of the getting to know the other person process where you're delving deeper into the other person, looking for either compatibilities or incompatibilities.

 

[Edgar]

Unsurprisingly, a pushy ENTJ just hijacked a topic about INTPs and INTJs.
No wonder your bf is leery of you.

 

[Thalassa]

My advice isn't based on being an ENTJ or not, being in a relationship with an INTP or not. If both of you step outside the MBTI stereotypes and look at this from a human perspective, you have a guy with commitment issues. You have yourself with a need and goal, that his commitment issues won't budge on after 8 months. I think he's full of crap about the relationship to marriage transition unless he's 12 years old and still believes in Disney movies.

Most adults realize that relationships don't always end with marriage. It's part of the getting to know the other person process where you're delving deeper into the other person, looking for either compatibilities or incompatibilities.

Most adults also realize that all relationships don't end in dinners with one partner's Rotary Club friends, either. That kind of social claim to him (because really, that's all it is, considering how much time she says she spends with him otherwise) is not ENTIRELY unlike wanting to be socially established in a marriage with someone. Because contractual marriage is not just about emotional commitment, it's about finances and social status, too.

If you think his ideas regards to marriage are "childish" I am going to counter that by saying her demands on his...Rotary Club (WTF IS THIS 1952?) could be perceived by some as just as childish.

Though personally I don't agree that his ideas are marriage are childish, ftr.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I think an INTP + INTJ relationship could work just fine if you can break through the barriers of introversion and they were able to balance the INTPs short term defriending due to being taken aback due to continued questioning and the INTJs long term doorslamming if reconciliation doesn't happen within a relatively prompt time scale.

 

[INTPness]

I think an INTP + INTJ relationship could work just fine if you can break through the barriers of introversion and they were able to balance the INTPs short term defriending due to being taken aback due to continued questioning and the INTJs long term doorslamming if reconciliation doesn't happen within a relatively prompt time scale.

I don't even know what that means, Jim.

What is "short term defriending due to being taken aback due to continued questioning"?

Also, what is "long term doorslamming if reconciliation doesn't happen withing a relatively prompt time scale"?

 

[Edgar]

I think what Jim means (correct me if I'm wrong), is that it comes down to the difference between INTP and INTJ decision making process. INTJs are usually decisive when it comes to establishing a relationship (i.e. "do you want a relantionship? No? Fuck you then"). While INTPs like to poke around and meander, and thusly freak out when an INTJ gives them what could be construed as an ultimatum.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I don't even know what that means, Jim.

What is "short term defriending due to being taken aback due to continued questioning"?

Also, what is "long term doorslamming if reconciliation doesn't happen withing a relatively prompt time scale"?

Sorry, reading back you are correct I hadn't properly considered this before I typed it. I'll come back to it in a few days once I've processed what I intend to say.

I think what Jim means (correct me if I'm wrong), is that it comes down to the difference between INTP and INTJ decision making process. INTJs are usually decisive when it comes to establishing a relationship (i.e. "do you want a relantionship? No? Fuck you then"). While INTPs like to poke around and meander, and thusly freak out when an INTJ gives them what could be construed as an ultimatum.

There was something more about the extroverted thinking nature of the INTJ that whenever it rubs up against defining the INTP on fixed lines there is a risk it can cause massive offense, I'll need to consider the correct way to word that.

 

[INTPness]

Sorry, reading back you are correct I hadn't properly considered this before I typed it. I'll come back to it in a few days once I've processed what I intend to say.

It's cool. Take your time.

I think what Jim means (correct me if I'm wrong), is that it comes down to the difference between INTP and INTJ decision making process. INTJs are usually decisive when it comes to establishing a relationship (i.e. "do you want a relantionship? No? Fuck you then"). While INTPs like to poke around and meander, and thusly freak out when an INTJ gives them what could be construed as an ultimatum.

Gotcha. Like 8 years into a relationship when the INTJ says, "Either we're getting married or we're not. Make up your mind!" And the INTP says, "Wait, what? I didn't even know we were dating, I thought we were just library buddies."

 

[rav3n]

Beyond the joke that I posted, I honestly think an INTP/INTJ relationship could work well, as long as they've both got well-developed Fe/Fi and the maturity to handle any relationship.

There's a fun, playful side to the INTP that an INTJ might enjoy. They could both respect each other's need for space but the timing of space necessary might be an issue long-term unless they could find a way to meet in the middle.

 

[Edgar]

There was something more about the extroverted thinking nature of the INTJ that whenever it rubs up against defining the INTP on fixed lines there is a risk it can cause massive offense, I'll need to consider the correct way to word that.

Could you be referring to the fact that INTJs tend to find INTPs intellectually intriguing and at the same time resent them for seemingly squandering away their potential?

 

[INTPness]

Could you be referring to the fact that INTJs tend to find INTPs intellectually intriguing and at the same time resent them for seemingly squandering away their potential?

Doh! I'd like to hear more about this "resentment", Edgar. Is it that we have so much potential, yet we're lazy and don't carry out our plans at times? Or something different than this? Why would it make INTJ's resentful? I'm not saying that it shouldn't make them resentful, just wondering why it does.

 

[A window to the soul]

Good match: intellectual equals, good communication, supportive in each others goals, attracted to each others differences, both like to be pretty autonomous in a relationship.

INTJ's are typically attracted to the flexible, spontaneous nature of the INTP. INTJ helping the INTP learn to be more organized and punctual.

The advantages I mentioned can also be the primary source of frustrations, so they both would have to give a little.

 

[Edgar]

Doh! I'd like to hear more about this "resentment", Edgar. Is it that we have so much potential, yet we're lazy and don't carry out our plans at times? Or something different than this? Why would it make INTJ's resentful? I'm not saying that it shouldn't make them resentful, just wondering why it does.

INTJs are very demanding of themselves and of others, and tend to disdain waste and complacency. So if you wander into their realm they will hold you to the same standards that they hold themselves, which most likely be "unreasonable" for an INTP. Of course, a wise INTJ realizes that different people approach life differently, but you know, sometimes you can't help being you.

 

[Onceajoan]

I was in a long-term relationship with an INTJ, and I can see some of the problems you've experienced. The INTJ was a bit more serious about everything, milestones, etc. than I could ever be. But it's a mistake to think an INTP (or any normal human being) is "emotionally vacant". If anything, it's the INTJ who has more difficulty being expressive.

The issue that killed us was mutual neglect. Having two people who deny they have emotional needs in a relationship can be a real challenge, especially if they are also not being open about other things (both can have a tendency to be secretive). But I don't think in general that the INTP/INTJ relationship is doomed. It's not the kind that explodes, but fades. Non-negligible chance of becoming "roommates" after years of marriage, etc.

This^

Just got out of a long term relationship with XNTP. "It's not the kind that explodes but fades." as well as "mutual neglect" are good ways to depict the demise of the NT/NT relationship. Still, I think it can be good in the beginning when debate as a form of intellectual exchange is novel and has not yet turned into a constant bickering fest.

Beyond the joke that I posted, I honestly think an INTP/INTJ relationship could work well, as long as they've both got well-developed Fe/Fi and the maturity to handle any relationship.

This is the ONLY way I can see the relationship working long term. My ex INTP lacked one ounce of Fe/Fi and wasn't interested in developing it either. That was the beginning of the end.

An aside: In reference to the earlier comment about an INTJ resenting their INTP for squandering their talent away, I certainly don't believe that applies to most INTPs. I understand most INTPs to be quite talented, competent and intelligent. My ex INTP is quite ambitious and successful. He could be a bit indecisive and lacking in planning and organizational skills, but he was certainly not lazy.

 

[great_bay]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION]

How is your relationship with the INTP mate of yours? I'm curious.