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[NT] Ask an NT witch anything.

greenfairy

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"False Dichotomy: This is where you say that there are only two choices, when actually there are more. For instance, you might say that someone is either alive, or they're dead, ignoring the fact that they might be Dracula. Or you might say that if someone's not a Democrat, they must be some sort of Republican, ignoring the very real possibility that they may be Dracula."
— Lore Sjöberg, Alt Text episode 5, "Logical Fallacies"

Once again I am not saying there are only 2 choices. I mean that balance as a principle underlies everything. Fundamentally and broadly this is 2 extremes, but when you get more specific, it is balance among many; and when we get to the level of organisms, we are talking about balance in an ecosystem of billions of things.
 

greenfairy

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Good answers.

Your answers are responsive and interesting, but frankly don't seem very NT.

Hm. Maybe I understand typology differently. Or half the time I'm just not that good at translating what I think into words. It is pretty hard to talk about things which are completely subjective in logical terms, even if they exist that way in my mind. I have a few posts where I lay out complete logical arguments, which I would think would constitute NT.

Are there holes that I need to fill, inconsistencies I need to untangle, obscurities I need to unravel?
 

greenfairy

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I could have sworn we were speaking in the present tense. Yes the nature of truth is subjective, but what I meant by "subjective truths" was a truth about something believed to be subjective, rather than outside the subject. She said she didn't believe in God or in deities in any way other than that they were mere concepts or fluid, psychological manifestations. As though the object in itself was just a subjective impression.

I still don't really know what you are trying to ask.
 

greenfairy

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Do you find you use a lot of props? I find that as time goes on..the more I look at props, the more they get in the way and distract m. I still use candles, sometimes incense and crystals at times but...most of the energy work I actually do doesn't have the spell-format you'd expect it to have. It's more..gut instinct to the situation, using intuition, empathy and other skill sets. :thinking:

I don't even officially observe the sabbats anymore. I do make it a point to reconnect with the season when it shifts but..that's done by walking through the garden while mulling thinsg over in my head, noticing the changes and well...syncing up with Nature again, as such.

In my group we use a lot of props during rituals most of the time, initially so we could learn their purposes and uses, and now just because they have specific roles in the rituals. And most of us have some personal tools which are very meaningful to us. In my own time I have my set of things, but I don't really do formal magic that often, and so I don't really use them that much. But part of that is because I'm kind of consciously gotten away from it to just live life and clear my mind. It might be good for me to use more healing crystals and stones. But then again, they are only props.
Most of the time my magical existence consists of being in harmony with life, truth, the Earth, the universe, etc. Connecting more to the cycles of nature is something I've been meaning to do.
 

greenfairy

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This could explain some things, but what about things supposedly perceived which are so far removed that the integration of sensory information could not explain them?

I would say you are sensing things which are not immediately identifiable. Picking up on energy patterns can be very complex, and difficult for our physical senses to grasp.
 

greenfairy

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This is something Amargith and I had talked about previously and had different, well not so much takes as different levels of interest in: do you use or incorporate chakras? Also, do you particularly different between the different aura layers, or what in yoga parlance we would call koshas and elsewhere are called subtle bodies or energy bodies?

The first time I ever met a pagan that I know of, it was in a world religions class in college [at a Catholic University.] We had a guest speaker, the pagan lady, and the first thing out of her mouth was "I apologize for being late. I forgot to ask my [whatever kind of] spirit guide to save a parking space for me so there were no nearby parking spaces so I had to walk further to get here." While I had heard or read about many "interesting" things in my life before then, I found that one really weird and was like "Okay, what weird fruit loop planet do you supposedly live on?" Interestingly enough, as a military brat no one ever told me that "they park their planes where the spirits tell them they should" and I didnt see parking cars as that different from flying or parking a plane. People will do what they will, and I have encountered many examples of [runner?] spirit guides that do things like saving parking spaces, but I want to point out that one of my Taoism books [written by a Taoist lineage holder btw] has a section on "abuses of spiritual power", and lo and behold one of the items amongst the ten or so listed is "using spirit guides to affect the physical world, such as saving parking spaces for you." I guess there are always differences of opinion...

I agree with the Eastern view on this; the spirit world is there to help you help yourself. Your task on earth is to learn how to live on the physical plane harmoniously. If you've tried everything and still need help, that's when they can come in. But not to save you a parking space.
 

Totenkindly

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This has been my experience as well. Acknowledging the dark and accepting it as just as good and necessary as the light is a significant difference. Darkness has been incorrectly equated with evil for far too long, with far-reaching consequences. As one of my teachers explains, one is just as blind in a room flooded with light as in complete darkness. It is in their combining to create contrast that meaning is found (consider these words on the screen).

I'll throw in my chips with you guys on this one. I started steeped in the conservative Christian faith (where the "light" was highly touted and "dark" shunned) but as my life progressed, I realized I too have this same view of balance as necessary in the universe, and light defines dark and vice versa. Dark should not be equated with 'evil' as it has been in judeo-christian culture. I think we've lost some of our understanding of the world as well as power to invest and triumph in life and growth when we can only look at half the picture.

The epistemology of every belief system is based on subjective truths. That is what makes them belief systems and not science. If anything, pagan spirituality is much more grounded in objective reality since it is anchored in the physical world of nature. The solstices and equinoxes are astronomical realities for everyone, whether they choose to observe them or not.

That's interesting to me, as although I consider myself to operate a great deal from intuition, I find myself frustrated with the purely theoretical -- it all has to have grounding in what can be uniformly observed and experienced... kind of like the point you've noted here about pagan spirituality.

As for Christianity's widespread "success", it seems due as much to having been a state religion for so long, as to any inherent worth.

That, and I think it's a successfully designed meme -- it basically can morph into and/or reflect back whatever the participant is putting into it, regardless of what that is. It's very adaptable. (Ever look at how it manifests in different cultural regions of the world? The same religion, yet it's like a "wonder biochemical" in that it seems to be able to fit itself into any receptor it comes near.) So most people can find points of connection with it, and it seems to support what they're experiencing or at least offers a viable framework for it.
 

greenfairy

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Agreed.

Unless you're pagan or Hindu or Taoist, then Christianity doesn't fit very well. I think it fits a certain kind of temperament. One that has an external locus of control, which focuses more on transcendence than harmony in the present, prefers to adhere to a structured belief system created by others, and emphasizes judgment over relativism (or perception).

There are those notable exceptions, whose approach is more mystical, but then they start looking less like Christians and more like pagans.
 

Amargith

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Would it be interesting for my fellow pagans to open a 'Pagan Playground'?

I don't want to overshadow this thread in any way (as I very much enjoy it) [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION], but (since Im sort of starved for knowledge and especially experience exchange) I think I would enjoy a place here where peer review is possible, as such. Otoh, Im not sure how many of us there are, how many are willing to come out of the broom closet here specifically and how relevant each individual path will be to the others.

Perhaps pagans here can rep me their ideas/opinions? If there is enough interest, I will open a thread ;)
 

greenfairy

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Would it be interesting for my fellow pagans to open a 'Pagan Playground'?

I don't want to overshadow this thread in any way (as I very much enjoy it) [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION], but (since Im sort of starved for knowledge and especially experience exchange) I think I would enjoy a place here where peer review is possible, as such. Otoh, Im not sure how many of us there are, how many are willing to come out of the broom closet here specifically and how relevant each individual path will be to the others.

Perhaps pagans here can rep me their ideas/opinions? If there is enough interest, I will open a thread ;)

Sounds interesting. Although it might not be as relevant to MBTI as individual people discussing things relating to their types and temperaments.
 

greenfairy

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The point of my thread is to attempt to explain mystical things to rational types in a way they can accept; I don't know if I've at all succeeded, because people seem to not want to subject what I've said to rigorous analysis, maybe because they don't want to hurt my feelings.
 

Totenkindly

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There are those notable exceptions, whose approach is more mystical, but then they start looking less like Christians and more like pagans.

Lol... that's rather why I don't find myself as welcome in the old Christian circles I used to travel. :)

But basically, if I identify with anyone within the tradition now, it seems to be those who have been designated as "mystics" -- there's a large dose of Eastern thought involved.

The point of my thread is to attempt to explain mystical things to rational types in a way they can accept; I don't know if I've at all succeeded, because people seem to not want to subject what I've said to rigorous analysis, maybe because they don't want to hurt my feelings.

I would keep expressing that thought openly, to overcome any initial reticence some might have in really pushing and pulling at the ideas you are laying out. It's good to be explicit.
 

RaptorWizard

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I agree with the Eastern view on this; the spirit world is there to help you help yourself. Your task on earth is to learn how to live on the physical plane harmoniously. If you've tried everything and still need help, that's when they can come in. But not to save you a parking space.

The physical plane in my opinion is the very lowest level of the existence and by no means a harmonious place but rather a chaotic prison of pain and suffering.
Our mission in life must be to liberate ourselves from our earthly shackles and eventually expand to planes beyond the terrestrial and into the celestial heavens.
 

greenfairy

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The physical plane in my opinion is the very lowest level of the existence and by no means a harmonious place but rather a chaotic prison of pain and suffering.
Our mission in life must be to liberate ourselves from our earthly shackles and eventually expand to planes beyond the terrestrial and into the celestial heavens.

So you emphasize transcendence. Fair enough. It works for a lot of people. yang to yin
 

Valis

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Here is the place where you can ask anything you want to know about mysticism, spirituality, developing your feeling side and Ni, fairies, polytheism+atheism, talking to trees, psychic ability, etc.; and how it is possible to reconcile all this with being NT.







(*Or if you must, tell me I'm not NT- but if you do prepare to back up your assertion with evidence and logic.)

What makes you believe you are a rational type when you also believe in mysticism? These kinds of beliefs are very irrational. Do you think it could be an emotional crutch, or just that you are incorrectly typed? I believe in God and pray most days, but I know this to be irrational and based on no evidence. However, I find it comforting. If I were a stronger person I wouldn't need to do this.
 

Coriolis

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I could have sworn we were speaking in the present tense. Yes the nature of truth is subjective, but what I meant by "subjective truths" was a truth about something believed to be subjective, rather than outside the subject. She said she didn't believe in God or in deities in any way other than that they were mere concepts or fluid, psychological manifestations. As though the object in itself was just a subjective impression.
Some people view deity as internal, or something each of us is part of, or at least something that can be manifested internally. Pagans say, "Thou art God/Goddess". Even Christians speak of the divine spark within each of us. Accepting something as a useful construct doesn't seem that far from belief in any case.

We can't be sure these beings exist, so it would be impractical to make the assumption. In any case, if they do and we don't know it, they are irrelevant to us.
Now this is illogical. Our ignorance of something does not ensure its irrelevance to us; just consider our evolving understanding of germs, for instance.

The physical plane in my opinion is the very lowest level of the existence and by no means a harmonious place but rather a chaotic prison of pain and suffering.
Our mission in life must be to liberate ourselves from our earthly shackles and eventually expand to planes beyond the terrestrial and into the celestial heavens.
This sounds suspiciously like Christian propaganda. I prefer a more integrated approach, accessing whatever aspect of reality is most suitable and available for the purpose at hand.

Hm. Maybe I understand typology differently. Or half the time I'm just not that good at translating what I think into words. It is pretty hard to talk about things which are completely subjective in logical terms, even if they exist that way in my mind. I have a few posts where I lay out complete logical arguments, which I would think would constitute NT.

Are there holes that I need to fill, inconsistencies I need to untangle, obscurities I need to unravel?
Don't worry - when I see them, I will let you know. For now, I am still becoming familiar with your point of view as you have expressed it. Spiritual matters require a different type of analysis, which tends to be a bit more holistic and tolerant of subjective experience.

Sounds interesting. Although it might not be as relevant to MBTI as individual people discussing things relating to their types and temperaments.
It would be interesting to compare how different types relate to paganism -- how we found it, what it means to us, how we practice, etc. I'm not sure INTJs are any more common among pagans than elsewhere, and much as I know this is the path for me, I often feel like a fish out of water in conventional pagan settings. This is a dynamic I would like to understand better. In any case, I'll play.

As for The Secret, the type of positive thinking it describes seems more like wishful thinking, the new age equivalent of Christians who use prayer mostly to ask God for what they want. I prefer goal oriented thinking accompanied by visualization of the desired outcome. The principle here is really knowing your own mind, and understanding what is important and what is irrelevant to what you want. If you cannot imagine it, you cannot achieve it. Needless to say, none of this will amount to much unless accompanied by logical and concerted action to achieve the desired end.
 

Coriolis

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I'll throw in my chips with you guys on this one. I started steeped in the conservative Christian faith (where the "light" was highly touted and "dark" shunned) but as my life progressed, I realized I too have this same view of balance as necessary in the universe, and light defines dark and vice versa. Dark should not be equated with 'evil' as it has been in judeo-christian culture. I think we've lost some of our understanding of the world as well as power to invest and triumph in life and growth when we can only look at half the picture.
This part of the discussion reminded me of a poem by a colleague from my original study group:

The Pilgrim

In shadowed place, by shadows bound
Where Shadows move, but make no sound
A moment's wait brings clear to sight
The borderland of Day and Night.

Upon this plain of place between,
With Dawn's horizon sharp and keen,
A Shadow paused on shadowed way
To see the kingdom of the Day.

He found a world of many hues
Unlike the oceanic blues
That ruled the realm of shadows deep;
The place that is the home to sleep.

The Shadow Pilgrim felt the air,
Knew sights and sounds and textures fair.
He heard the words the waking speak;
Felt sunlight fall on Shadow cheek.

Green of forest! Tawn of grain!
The sizzling scent of Summer rain.
Beauty in her daylit guise
Brought shadow tears to shadow eyes.

But swiftly . . . far too soon, it seems . . .
Daylight gave away its dreams.
With sad precision shadows know,
He marked the fading sunset glow.

Then Shadow left the world so bright,
Returning to the arms of Night.
And never spoke a shadow word;
Nor ever shadow footstep heard.

But night would never wear as old,
And stars would never shine so cold.
For all, he knows, has much to say;
And Night's the other half of Day.

. . . In shadowed place by shadows bound,
A thoughtful shadow may be found,
Who casts what shadows as he might;
A Shadow with a soul of Light.
 
G

Ginkgo

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This part of the discussion reminded me of a poem by a colleague from my original study group:

The Pilgrim

In shadowed place, by shadows bound
Where Shadows move, but make no sound
A moment's wait brings clear to sight
The borderland of Day and Night.

Upon this plain of place between,
With Dawn's horizon sharp and keen,
A Shadow paused on shadowed way
To see the kingdom of the Day.

He found a world of many hues
Unlike the oceanic blues
That ruled the realm of shadows deep;
The place that is the home to sleep.

The Shadow Pilgrim felt the air,
Knew sights and sounds and textures fair.
He heard the words the waking speak;
Felt sunlight fall on Shadow cheek.

Green of forest! Tawn of grain!
The sizzling scent of Summer rain.
Beauty in her daylit guise
Brought shadow tears to shadow eyes.

But swiftly . . . far too soon, it seems . . .
Daylight gave away its dreams.
With sad precision shadows know,
He marked the fading sunset glow.

Then Shadow left the world so bright,
Returning to the arms of Night.
And never spoke a shadow word;
Nor ever shadow footstep heard.

But night would never wear as old,
And stars would never shine so cold.
For all, he knows, has much to say;
And Night's the other half of Day.

. . . In shadowed place by shadows bound,
A thoughtful shadow may be found,
Who casts what shadows as he might;
A Shadow with a soul of Light.

As a boy I often rooted for the bad guy because he had the greatest potential to be good.

Anyway, I'm going to be exiting the conversation since I have no more questions.

Thanks!
 

greenfairy

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What makes you believe you are a rational type when you also believe in mysticism? These kinds of beliefs are very irrational. Do you think it could be an emotional crutch, or just that you are incorrectly typed? I believe in God and pray most days, but I know this to be irrational and based on no evidence. However, I find it comforting. If I were a stronger person I wouldn't need to do this.

I've read several profiles about INTP's being attracted to mysticism. Ti needs to figure things out, and tends to get bored with things which are easy to figure out. Something absurdly complex like quantum physics, or so mysterious it would take a lifetime to figure out, will provide a lifetime of interest. It makes sense to me. You are free to disagree. I've explained my views on incorporating the mysterious and subjective in several places on this thread.

So you have your Christian "mysticism" and I have my pagan "mysticism. Is one more NT than another?
 

greenfairy

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Now this is illogical. Our ignorance of something does not ensure its irrelevance to us; just consider our evolving understanding of germs, for instance.
No, here is another place I have inadequately explained myself I think, or misinterpreted the question. It's true they could affect us. I mean, these beings are not relevant to our conscious processes. That is, we don't have to be aware of them and account for their existence to live in harmony with reality, except to acknowledge that we don't know everything and there might possibly be more knowledgeable beings than us, like there might be aliens. But whether they exist or not is irrelevant to what we choose to do with our lives, and how happy and functional we are. The basic underlying principles of reality can be known regardless.

Don't worry - when I see them, I will let you know. For now, I am still becoming familiar with your point of view as you have expressed it. Spiritual matters require a different type of analysis, which tends to be a bit more holistic and tolerant of subjective experience.
Thanks.

It would be interesting to compare how different types relate to paganism -- how we found it, what it means to us, how we practice, etc. I'm not sure INTJs are any more common among pagans than elsewhere, and much as I know this is the path for me, I often feel like a fish out of water in conventional pagan settings. This is a dynamic I would like to understand better. In any case, I'll play.
I agree, and I have theories about this. I think:
NF's are more concerned with harmony, both inner and outer, and personal and meaningful connections with divine beings.
NT's like the holistic approach to understanding truth, free from dogma.
SP's tend to like the connection with the physical world, and how magic is manifested in it, and they emphasize beauty.
SJ's like the stability of ritual and tradition carried through the ages, and the grounding they feel from nature.
As for The Secret, the type of positive thinking it describes seems more like wishful thinking, the new age equivalent of Christians who use prayer mostly to ask God for what they want. I prefer goal oriented thinking accompanied by visualization of the desired outcome. The principle here is really knowing your own mind, and understanding what is important and what is irrelevant to what you want. If you cannot imagine it, you cannot achieve it. Needless to say, none of this will amount to much unless accompanied by logical and concerted action to achieve the desired end.
makes sense
 
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