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[INTJ] The INTJ "Doorslam" aka INTJ Pigeonholing

Amargith

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^ Ime, they can value them for sheer entertainment value at that point (coz it tickles their curiosity). They have to be in relaxation mode for that though.
 

Zarathustra

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^ Ime, they can value them for sheer entertainment value at that point (coz it tickles their curiosity). They have to be in relaxation mode for that though.

I wholeheartedly agree, but isn't this a purpose/categorization, too?

I think it could be labeled [MENTION=5398]Edgar[/MENTION]'s "frisky pet you can fuck".
 

Coriolis

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I wonder, is it so difficult for INTJ to have a value for someone they can't categorize or set a purpose to?
It is more than difficult, it is impossible. You would then be seen as purposeless, which I would expect is worse than being pigeonholed into an incorrect or too narrow function.

Don't worry, though. My definition of "purpose" is very broad, and includes many open-ended and subjective purposes like entertainment value (sounds harsh even to me), simple companionship, good neighbor, friendly face at the store, etc. Of course, everyone has fundamental value as a human, but to have specific value to me, one (or both) of us must get something out of it, and what we get will determine the purpose and value.
 

Mia.

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Let me describe what I mean. Once an INTJ has figured out "what you are for" you get categorized into that function and once you are slotted in that spot, it can be difficult to get yourself reassigned from that role.

Roles can be anything from what the person does best (clear speaker, intuitive coder, interface-creator, customer-satisfyer, gourmet cook) to relationship-based categories (friend, co-worker, love interest) whatever.

Yes.

It is a door-slamming in a compartmental capacity. “Sorry, you don’t get clearance into that area - you don’t work there, go back to your work station.”

One’s potential for “advancement” is often dependent on the maturity of the INTJ in terms of them being open (and actively seeking) new information, and not making snap, set-in-stone decisions.

If they choose to engage in it, this concept relates heavily to INTJ concept of manipulation as well.

I think it's part of the reason that NFP's keep dancing around NTJ's throwing Ne everywhere - it prevents (especially) the INTJ from assigning them a role, because the INTJ takes in this new data and delays settling the NFP into a functional capacity.

That’s too funny…. my INTJ best friend growing up and through the teen years called me his swiss army knife.
 

Usehername

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Once an INTJ has figured out "what you are for" you get categorized into that function and once you are slotted in that spot, it can be difficult to get yourself reassigned from that role.

I am highly resistant to trusting people with new roles if they aren't interested in regularly putting themselves in the student role, and admitting they have worldview revisions to do.

I think healthy INTJs build up and tear down drafts of our worldview, and we pride ourselves in being open enough to learn and grow from new ideas.

I had people comment on how judgy I was about someone for the past few years, and saw them as a small person... until she gave up pretenses and said, I'm really struggling with this stuff and I'm no longer interested in pretending I'm doing fine. And I immediately respected her and trusted her with a lot of things. I changed my mind about her because I saw she stopped using her energy to give off false images of competence. Instead, she gained enough self-respect to give the middle finger to what everyone else thought and used her energy for actual, genuine growth (which required seeing her weaknesses come out).

I don't know if this is related to what you're after. But I really struggle to respect someone who is using their energy to give off airs of competence compared to someone who is genuinely building their competence, even if it looks like they're failing more.
 

UniqueMixture

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@bold: Not sure that's true. It's different, I can feel it. That's where I am interested to explore.

@boldpurple: I agree. Te-Si: "You know how to do task X? Good, get over there and do it man!"

-----



I hear you :)"



What could possibly change your mind about him? Anything?

-----



Yes, like that, someone repped me "pigeon-holing" like that one too. Keep the suggestions coming!



It's like, the ISTJ is more about the individual tasks and when you add a skill, to me it seems they append their file more readily. INTJ seems more about the assemblage and what the whole can do. Adding a new data point doesn't necessarily append their belief about who / what you are ?? Somehow ?? It takes more than a couple of Si remembrances ...

Exploring ..... thanks all for your thoughts so far. As I said, I am putting this out there to refine or shoot down, rather than sharing any kind of conclusions.

My infp friend once told me that he processes relationships subconciously, wheras I tend to process them more conciously. I think he was right. For me at least, there was a point where I was unaware of how I came across to others so I learned to neuroquantum matrix that shit so I would know who I could joke around with, who I could talk existentially with, basically who I could be MYSELF around. It's like a spidey sense that's not meant to judge others, perhaps it's more of a defense mechanism, but because I think about it so conciously I think I have picked up on certain "markers" that are highly probabalistically accurate. However, I have always been prone to "counting." NFs usually interpret it as a control issue, but that doesn't feel right to me. I do it, beacause for me it's like beautiful on the fly visual poetry and the only level of complexity that keeps me fully engaged.

I guess to get the person to open up more, perhaps defy their expectations in a positive way as you said or playfully remind them that they could be shutting out opportunities/people by doing that? Also, that people are more complex than that and are not just memes : D

If I got this correctly, it seems like something ISTJ's do too. They have the dom. Si, and in this case, it works pretty much like the dom. Ni, where they go by their internal storehouse of data (and the aux. Te which judges the outside object and what to do with it), and then that's just "it" with them.

I believe it is related to the socionics Ti function so is very common in ixtj. It is a hunter-seeker function used to identify threats, allies, and mates lol.
 
S

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i saw my father (INTJ) doing this all the time when he was running his business - "this guy is my general case salesman, she is good with selling to older couples, this is my closer", and to some extent to me, he has at some point saw some pattern between tech stuff i extrapolated/fantasized/went-Ne-about about as a kid in the early 90s and trends happening in the later 90's and asked me to pick startups for him to invest in... then hormonal changes came, then the high tech bubble exploded (coincidence? hmmm).

i actually think it's probably the case that with Fi dealing less with the nature of other people and more with internal projections and extrapolations of the golden rule, Te takes a more front line role in assessing other people, and when one combines it with the singular cohesive-vision nature of introverted intuition, the INTJ asks himself a Te question about a person and get's an Ni answer.


p.s.
I don't think the metaphor holds - the nature of a doorslam is closing yourself off from the other's perspective or any information they can provide regarding it, it's basically being in a conflict and shouting "lalala alallaala i don't hear you", while pigeon holing people, as annoying as it is, enables an open flow of information, it merely means you are less adaptable to new information.
 

UniqueMixture

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[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION]: just to let you know, you're not responsible for the tech bubble of the late 90s bursting lol
 

RaptorWizard

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Here is an INTJ who participated in pigeon holding - literally!
Tesla__s_White_Pigeon_by_FlightlessMab.jpg
 

Kalach

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Pragmatism, mothereffers.

Pragmatic decision making isn't actually all that rigid when done well, and even so, this is quite different from observing there are people out there who reject extroverted decision making.


I discovered an alarming thing about an acquaintance recently. He's ISFP and bitches often but quite mildly about an irritating take charge guy we both know who I dislike quite a lot. I was puzzled by the mildness of ISFP's bitching. "If you don't like it--" I was saying, but then was struck... "Omg," I said. "YOU LIKE IT!" He dislikes this take charge guy bossing him around, but is pleased enough with the results. (Take Charge Guy sets up part time work for ISFP. This works mostly to the advantage of Take Charge Guy because he gets more money from other people by having ISFP come around, but I'm pretty sure, judged by actions, that ISFP doesn't actually care that much since he gets his walking around money too.)

And I'm like, whatever, man, love that part of yourself and I won't have to listen to the bitching any more. The bitching has it's place, I'm sure, BUT YOU'VE MADE AN EXTROVERTED JUDGMENT RIGHT THERE, HOMIE. IT'S AN UNCONSCIOUS DECISION ABOUT HOW TO SET UP THE WORLD BUT IT'S WORKING FOR YOU, ISN'T IT, SO HOW ABOUT THAT, EH?!


I hereby generalise to all Ps.

*slam*
 

MacGuffin

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I am highly resistant to trusting people with new roles if they aren't interested in regularly putting themselves in the student role, and admitting they have worldview revisions to do.

Eh? Admitting?
 

Eugene Watson VIII

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That's actually pretty interesting. This is why ENTP and INTJ would usually make good friends since the INTJ gets offered refreshing insights. I had one ENTP friend who pretty much bromanced hard with his INTJ pal...ya buncha nerds :smile:
 

Lexicon

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People perceive that we're not open to new information when in fact, that is not the case.

This has been my experience with _NTJ's. You guys tend to have a rather conclusive/definite/confident demeanor, in general. Statements/observations sound final, which can be intimidating to those who take that tone of finality quite literally- they'll no longer feel like they can speculate with you, or that you'll not be receptive to new data. I had to remind myself, in the past, when I felt distressed/misunderstood on some level- that things are not set in stone, even if you guys appear to have your minds made up already.
 

Usehername

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Eh? Admitting?

I like people who have the attitude of "I can handle this, I know I can learn things" when encountering new situations.

I dislike people who have the attitude of "I just always assume I'm right and the other person is wrong whenever there's a discrepancy" which is pretty much a verbatim quote from an ISTJ I know. He refuses to put himself in situations where he can't legitimately argue that he's competent, because he's not willing to deal with the stress of the learning curve. I think that's a major weakness and I therefore don't trust him with a lot of things.
 

highlander

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This has been my experience with _NTJ's. You guys tend to have a rather conclusive/definite/confident demeanor, in general. Statements/observations sound final, which can be intimidating to those who take that tone of finality quite literally- they'll no longer feel like they can speculate with you, or that you'll not be receptive to new data. I had to remind myself, in the past, when I felt distressed/misunderstood on some level- that things are not set in stone, even if you guys appear to have your minds made up already.

Exactly!
 

MacGuffin

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I like people who have the attitude of "I can handle this, I know I can learn things" when encountering new situations.

I dislike people who have the attitude of "I just always assume I'm right and the other person is wrong whenever there's a discrepancy" which is pretty much a verbatim quote from an ISTJ I know. He refuses to put himself in situations where he can't legitimately argue that he's competent, because he's not willing to deal with the stress of the learning curve. I think that's a major weakness and I therefore don't trust him with a lot of things.

Oh, I thought you might be interrogating them. ;) Never can know for sure with INTJs!
 

PeaceBaby

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There is something like a doorslam, too, though I would rather describe it as an icy shoulder: the complete withdrawal of respect and attention, people basically falling out of humanity.

Noted. I can perceive that possibility, yes.

What the OP describes is more like pigeonholing, as someone mentioned. It focuses on the utility or contribution of a person, not their individuality or humanity as Nicodemus neatly observed. When my default view of someone goes from utility to individuality, they have crossed an important threshold in our interaction/relationship.

Yes, thanks for the confirmation and enhancement.

Still, I will readily "upgrade" or expand the utilitarian view of someone. I am actually on the alert to discover what else someone can do, how they can be more useful, or contribute to more activities. I will not hesitate to put a minor player in charge of something once I realize they have the skills/experience to do it.

Thanks for that.

Yes, it's very relevant to me, at least... and prob. INFJ's in general. Taking a few seemingly random data points about someone and extrapolating (often accurately) to other aspects of them/decisions they would make.

Interesting too, yes.

Except I'm not sure about this. Some things take longer to conclusively form, but I totally do the immediate extrapolation thing; maybe in some cases I have probabilities associated with it, though, so might give a few cases more time to get a little more data.

My feeling is that INFJ's look at people more as walking idiosyncrasies in the first place, therefore you take in more information before settling on a people-purpose. At least it feels that way, perhaps I am off there.

I am highly resistant to trusting people with new roles if they aren't interested in regularly putting themselves in the student role, and admitting they have worldview revisions to do.

What about people who don't ... operate ... that way, for lack of a better word. I don't believe I have a process that, upon starting a new role or receipt of new information, requires me to tear down a worldview and build it back up.

I feel I am adding utility all of the time to this giant web, and the web doesn't necessarily need to be started over again even with changes in subject or even major paradigm shifts in my understanding.

How does that reconcile with your thoughts?

This has been my experience with _NTJ's. You guys tend to have a rather conclusive/definite/confident demeanor, in general. Statements/observations sound final, which can be intimidating to those who take that tone of finality quite literally- they'll no longer feel like they can speculate with you, or that you'll not be receptive to new data. I had to remind myself, in the past, when I felt distressed/misunderstood on some level- that things are not set in stone, even if you guys appear to have your minds made up already.


What's of note is that INFJ's too give off the same air, just in a different purview.



So, is it fair to generalize that most INTJ's feel they do "pigeonhole" people based on utility, but that they are far more open to making changes to this worldview upon receipt of new data than they appear?

My question then is, would it benefit an INTJ to APPEAR more open in the first place (assuming that is indeed true), more receptive, rather than expecting people to KNOW such a thing?
 

Nicodemus

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So, is it fair to generalize that most INTJ's feel they do "pigeonhole" people based on utility, but that they are far more open to making changes to this worldview upon receipt of new data than they appear?
I would think so.

My question then is, would it benefit an INTJ to APPEAR more open in the first place (assuming that is indeed true), more receptive, rather than expecting people to KNOW such a thing?
Probably. The thing is, of course, that it does not come naturally.
 

MacGuffin

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My question then is, would it benefit an INTJ to APPEAR more open in the first place (assuming that is indeed true), more receptive, rather than expecting people to KNOW such a thing?

Yes, but it runs counter to how an INTJ operates.
 
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