[INTP] INTP loving again after multiple heart breaks?

[Daedalus]

I've been married to an INTP for 14 years, and while I haven't had the same experience as you, I can relate...

My husband never had trouble with the 'I love you' part, but he had never been hurt. However, especially at the beginning of our relationship, he never volunteered the words unless I spoke them first. As far as I can remember, he didn't voluntarily speak of feelings at all, I think a large part of him didn't see the need. I finally talked to him about it, because I was confused. He considered that repeating the same thing was just redundant. Wasn't it evident from his actions? And of course it was.
I explained, that to me, it never felt redundant, that it made me very happy each time I heard words of love. He argued that the words would loose their impact if spoken too often.

Even now, after 14 years, he (normally) doesn't talk about how he feels (about anything, not just me) unless I prompt him. A lot of times it takes quite an effort. He doesn't exactly resist, it's just he isn't really aware of the feelings. So it takes a decent amount of probing. But he humors me.

Are you sure he is not an INTJ? I feel exactly the same way, and it was one of the reasons I broke up with my INFJ girlfriend of four years.(this was before i was aware of BMTI and the quirks of each type..alas)She really thought I did not love her as much as I did cos I did not express it the way she wanted.

I have said the exact same words your husband chose to say

redundant
words would loose their impact if spoken too often
Wasn't it evident from his actions?

^^ this sounds like Fi. I actually loath saying my feelings out loud often because to my Fi , the fact that I "had" to say them aloud to convey what I feel so strongly inside me would greatly diminish their value.

 

[raindancing]

Are you sure he is not an INTJ? I feel exactly the same way, and it was one of the reasons I broke up with my INFJ girlfriend of four years.(this was before i was aware of BMTI and the quirks of each type..alas)She really thought I did not love her as much as I did cos I did not express it the way she wanted.

I have said the exact same words your husband chose to say

redundant
words would loose their impact if spoken too often
Wasn't it evident from his actions?

^^ this sounds like Fi. I actually loath saying my feelings out loud often because to my Fi , the fact that I "had" to say them aloud to convey what I feel so strongly inside me would greatly diminish their value.

I'm very confident about his type.
Those are things he said at the beginning of the relationship. I think a lot of it was due to him not being aware of what was expected of him. For the redundant thing, this really applies to everything, not just feelings. He hates repeating himself. It's about efficiency. And if it is evident from his actions, why should he say it as well? It's pointless. TBH I think the loosing impact comment was (mostly) a way to win the argument.
More than anything, when we had these conversations at the beginning of our relationship, he was puzzled. What was the problem? I admitted I knew he loved me. I don't think I even knew exactly what I wanted from him
(I'm probably contradicting myself millions of times in these posts, over this whole forum in fact... but I'm pulling up memories that range over quite a period of time. Neither of us was static through it all. And every time I think about it I remember something different, or think of it in a different way. Who even knows how accurate these memories are to the truth of what really happened? )

I don't think he loathes speaking of his feelings, I think it's more he's not very aware of them, so speaking of them doesn't even occur to him. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say he's not aware of them in a verbal way? Sometimes he really struggles with verbal expressions of emotion. Whereas for me, attempting to express a feeling in words is an exercise I find endlessly fascinating. (I'm speaking of any feelings here, not just romantic ones.)

For romantic feelings, physical communication seems much more natural to him. When I haven't seen him all day and he pulls me to his arms in fierce embrace, then after a moment, a sudden exhalation and every tension in his body relaxes, melding to mine; the world disappears. What words could possibly match this?

I suppose it's lucky we both have the same love languages (physical touch and quality time). If I needed words of affirmation, things would be a lot more difficult!

 

[A window to the soul]

Thanks for the reply! I can appreciate your comment about not asking him because he doesn't know how I want him to be feeling. I didn't think about that. I've been thinking about your 2 posts for a little bit. Of course there is always more to a story. I can't complain about affection. He is always affectionate as far as touch. When I tell him things like "You know I love you, right?" or any other reference to loving him, I say those things because I want him to know. I know I can't force anyone to say or respond how I want them too. As I was thinking about it though, I realized that the reason I am looking for any kind of answer goes back to wanting to know that we are on the same page as to where the relationship is going. I need to trust more that if there is something up, he will tell me and not be so insecure about it. He also tells me things little bits at a time about his past relationships. In my past relationships, I have always been straight forward about it. I tried being straight forward with him and have always been honest, however when I tried to tell him about a couple things he stopped me from telling him. He said that he wanted us to get to know one another based on the present, not on our pasts. (He had told me a few things by that point) I think just because he thought if I told him, I would expect him to tell me, and he wasn't ready. I do feel close to him, but I guess it is also more closeness that I am looking for. I think it will come as the relationship continues and he learns to trust me. Thanks for posting those thoughts, it made me realize some things about myself.

So I had a nice long reply all typed out and it disappeared when I tried to post it. So let me try again...

He is the most calm and laid back, family oriented, hard working, forgiving but not to be crossed,trust worthy, caring and giving man I have ever met. He is a man of his word and a man of action. I admire that he doesn't feel like he needs to have a vast amount of material things and only buys what he and his daughter need. He has never really bought me a gift, but when he has noticed that myself or one of my kids has needed something, he has always stepped up to do what he could. He can cook like no other. (I can't.) I am just as happy to sit at home on a Friday night and eat ramen noodles or pizza and watch TV with him then to go out and eat at an expensive restaurant. (That is what we did the entire first half of our relationship because of custody arrangements) In all honesty we could sit and do nothing and I would still be happy just because I am with him. He is the first person to offer family or friends any type of help he can offer. When his ex or mine says or does something dramatic, he doesn't let them know he is upset or become dramatic himself. He is my best friend and I trust him like I trust no other. That in itself is huge for me. I struggled myself with trusting after my divorce and my first relationship post divorce.

Now that you've pinpointed what you *really* want. I think it's time to tell him. No more beating around the bush with, "how do you feel about me?"

Shoot straight from *your* heart: calm, short and sweet. No attacking him. Close with something you genuinely admire about him.

Both of you will need a lot of courage to overcome your post-divorce anxieties to successfully have this talk and accomplish team goals.

By having courage, I mean doing the right thing, no matter how bad you feel. This leads to greater confidence and intimacy in a relationship, which is what you're striving for.

Remember, he's a man. He's a thinker. And you're going to be talking about your feelings and what you want, so give him a break if his eyes glaze over.


Tips:

Don't ask him how he feels the relationship is going. He will always say fine.

Don't ask him where he sees the relationship going. He will have no idea how you want him to answer this. It's indirect, impersonal, and unfair. If you must ask, then be more specific!

Again, this talk requires *courage*. If he's not an alpha male, he might dismiss you at some point during "the talk", but try not to take it personally, and brace yourself for what you must do (if he does dismiss you)...

Have the courage to risk the death of the relationship. Walk away. Just say no to what you don't want. When you have the courage to walk, he will either team up with you and work through it or he'll be defeated by anxiety and let you go. (Keep in mind, this relationship will eventually fail, if he does not overcome his anxieties and team up with you to work through problems.)

I hope you find these ideas helpful and I hope things work out for you!

 

[Mike5609]

... Keep in mind, this relationship will eventually fail, if he does not overcome his anxieties ...

Who are you to say that? Why do you dismiss the possibility that the OP and her Significant Other may carry on together indefinitely, albeit with areas of continuing difficulty in their relationship?

If the OP and her other half (or any other couple, for that matter) decide to see a counsellor or therapist together, IMHO a fundamental screening question to the intended therapist is "How do you handle it if you decide that it's best for a couple that they should separate, how do you broach it with them?" To which there is only one acceptable answer: "It's not for me to suggest that a couple should separate, that can only be their decision".

... and team up with you to work through problems.

I think that INTPs hearing of a desire to "team up" to "deal with" a problem would hear it as a take-over bid i.e. "I want to take charge of the problem-solving process, I have an agenda and a prescription for what I will offer towards resolution (chosen by me based on my perception of what I think your needs are, relatively easy for me to do, and not too disagreeable to me) and a prescription for what you need to do (chosen by me to meet my needs, would be easy for me if I were you, so should be easy for you and if it isn't well you need to work on it)".

In fairness, this sort of response may be triggered more with an xSxx partner, and I may be speaking from my baggage (ESFJ mother with undedeveloped Secondary - http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESFJ_per.html - "Potential Problem Areas, 11 bullet points), but still I think INTPs would generally be suspicious of "teaming up" to deal with a couple problem. The Ti thought process would go along the lines: "yes, we can be a team dealing with an *external* problem, but this is about *us*, so if we 'team up' then the 'team' will be 'working on' one or the other of us, and it doesn't sound as if my partner has in mind that it'll be her, so I'm the problem, I'm being invited to give away my independence of thought and action and be subsumed into a 'team' to 'deal with' *me* - no thanks!

Just say no to what you don't want

I understand the OP's problem to be that she isn't getting what she does want, not that she's getting what she doesn't want - a "sin" of omission, rather than commission, on the part of her other half.

To OP - I've been intending to post more generally but I feel (yes, feel) that there's a piece of the jigsaw missing, that my Ti process isn't being 'fed' fully. I think it may be *how* your other half's heart was broken - did his underdeveloped xxFx mean that he was controlled, manipulated, toyed with, dismissed? Did he make the same mistake (rephrase: 'find himself in the same relationship situation') again and again? Did he learn or is it shut down? Or work in progress?

One general-purpose thought is that if he feeds his Ti with reading on 'theory of relationship' then it might help him feel more comfortable that T-type theory of relationship does actually exist and that relationship is not just all about the 'foreign land' of xxFx. As I'm an INTP myself, it won't be any surprise to you to hear that I'm not talking Mars-and-Venus or Barbara deAngelis; that material does have its place, and yes, its dignity, but it is basically all xSxJ prescription, there is no underlying structure, no deep or pattern-recognising conceptualisation, to it. I would suggest Schnarch to an INTP - googlebooks has some of his material. He's a bit full of himself in recounting his case studies and success stories, but that doesn't detract from his theory. Perhaps his best-known is the (mis-titled) "Passionate Marriage" - it should have been titled "Impassioned Marriage". Sorry to be so INTP about that, but I felt forced to make the point .....

 

[A window to the soul]

Who are you to say that? Why do you dismiss the possibility that the OP and her Significant Other may carry on together indefinitely, albeit with areas of continuing difficulty in their relationship?

If the OP and her other half (or any other couple, for that matter) decide to see a counsellor or therapist together, IMHO a fundamental screening question to the intended therapist is "How do you handle it if you decide that it's best for a couple that they should separate, how do you broach it with them?" to which there is only one acceptable answer: "It's not for me to suggest that a couple should separate, that can only be their decision".

Whoa there! I only answer one question per post, free of charge.

Who are you to say that?

Unfortunately, I can’t tell you. I’m sworn to secrecy.

I understand the OP's problem to be that she isn't getting what she does want, not that she's getting what she doesn't want - a "sin" of omission, rather than commission, on the part of her other half.

That may be so, but I was talking about her statement, "however when I tried to tell him about a couple things he stopped me from telling him."

 

[Mike5609]

That may be so, but I was talking about her statement, "however when I tried to tell him about a couple things he stopped me from telling him."

OK. Well, stopping your other half from talking ain't the nicest for sure, but "just say no to that behaviour" (i.e. insisting on being heard there and then) seems to tilt things towards confrontation. I suggest the response should be along the lines "If you don't want to talk about it now, could we agree a time within the next [24] hours when you'll be prepared to hear me say what I wish to say"?

 

[A window to the soul]

OK. Well, stopping your other half from talking ain't the nicest for sure, but "just say no to that behaviour" (i.e. insisting on being heard there and then) seems to tilt things towards confrontation. I suggest the response should be along the lines "If you don't want to talk about it now, could we agree a time within the next [24] hours when you'll be prepared to hear me say what I wish to say"?

Sounds good.