[INTP] INTP and Flirting

[Cypocalypse]

I was a bit hesitant in writing this thread because flirting is not supposed to be a legitimate NT forte, but I guess it's ok to make a discussion about this once in a while just for kicks.

Anyway, do you think we INTPs (or NTs in general) are really weak at this, or it's just that we're too affected by the conventional notion that we're not good at this, hence we already give up on the endeavor even before we try doing it?

I've asked only one woman about my proficiency in this, and I felt that she's the among the few I know who's capable of giving a good estimate because she's a flirtatious pretty woman herself (talking to fellow NTs about measuring flirting skills would sound silly anyway) and she said...

"You're good actually. Not as good as ____________, but for someone who thinks that he's not really good at, you sure do know quite a number of things. I've encountered some guys who botch up their flirtation with me and they don't even know it."

I don't know if I'd take the statement as a compliment because the person she mentioned is the biggest playboy in our group.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on how an INTP can work this out:

__________________

1. The need to understand everything (Ti) would sometimes translate to the need of explaining everything (could be an Ne function), in detail. In my personal observation, I'm more eloquent than most NTs I know (most of whom are INTJ's I think, but I don't know that many INTPs to compare myself with).

2. The P function is the listening function. We're less likely to put a woman in a box of ideology than, let's say, the J's.

3. The Ne function (a very important one) is the gateway to the subconscious--the explorer of the various angles of the situation. though INTPs would like to always bind everything with the Ti function, stating the other angles of the situation can help us be in touch with our sentiments (as the Ti always seems to diffuse feelings). Unlike the J function who always needs to show that it is right, the P function stays in touch with everything, including feelings. Sentiments need to be expressed.

4. The eloquence of the Ne (by the way, my Ne is not that far behind my Ti. I think the very introverted INTPs have too much overwhelming Ti) in explaining the subconscious (which houses the person's feelings), plus the fact that the Ti will prevent things from being too sugarcoated (unlike the way INFPs do it) will give the INTP a very intelligent, sincere way of expressing his feelings, which can be a very powerful entity if developed properly.

5. Still, all women that I know hate the Ti function (unless one comes to you and asks you to solve her issues. Otherwise, all women I know hate it). The more technical things get (borderline Te), The more they seem to hate it, and it can be a waste of Ne/Ti cognitive processes if they'll focus on the technical issues.

6. If the Ti is too strong for an INTP to say things explicitly and the Ne doesn't show too much of an assistance, the P function can help the INTP dude in structuring his statement in such a way that it would be open-ended and figurative in its form, and can be taken in a romanticized context.

7. Of course, all the things I listed are just startups. Follow-ups are a different issue, which I think I still suck at, big time. LOL!

 

[nozflubber]

Why would you care to flirt in the first place? A lack of sincerity and integrity can be very unbecoming

 

[redacted]

Why would you care to flirt in the first place? A lack of sincerity and integrity can be very unbecoming

flirting is fun, and it's pretty hard to get girls without doing it. you don't have to be insincere at all either. and how does it compromise integrity?

 

[Xander]

Rule #1 Caring about "getting" the girl is wrong.
Flirt for fun, for experimentation, just to cheer someone up or anything other than "getting your leg over". Such deceit is not only reprehensible but also can lead you to be discovered. That kind of stain is difficult to remove and really spoils the fun.

Rule #2 INTPs are great at chat up lines.
The whole N thing working away to link just about everything and anything... who better to come up with smut and inferences than us Also I find INTPs hate to say things the expected and accepted way so for getting people's attention in conversation (weel or woe) we rock

Rule #3 Stick to the shadows..
ESFJ people... hello. We are people focused if we can tap into it. Hell I've had to dress down more than one NF for being tactless!!

I've read the piece about INTPs being social misfits and all backwards around people. Personally I just ended up thinking "stuff this" and since then there's been no problems. In fact it held true that once I'd got a stable relationship I got more interest than ever before... bloomin sod's law!!

 

[proteanmix]

The two INTPs I know are completely wooden when it comes to flirting.

Concentrate on your Ne-Fe axis and stop freaking analyzing everything!

 

[Totenkindly]

Do you always start conversations off like this, Cypo? Mmmm.... the way you gush ideas, well, you really know how to make a girl think.

What sort of things do you like to fix? I can imagine how hard that would be, to fix things all the time, how fascinating!

You know, once I stayed up all night long helping a guy I met fix something. I was so tired afterwards, I couldn't even walk the next day! I don't do that much now... (Well, at least not unless I met the RIGHT guy.)

I was wondering if you ever break something, just so you can fix it again afterwards.

 

[Cypocalypse]

Jennifer,

My parents are SJ. Mom is an overprotective ESFJ and dad is an aloof, but good, ISTJ provider.

Growing up in an SJ environment (family, school) hurt a bit when I was growing up, and the feeling of misunderstood was there, so the urge of understanding myself by means of my own started to develop.

That's the start of me dwelling into the Ne-Ti axis. It gives me an inner understanding--an inner structure. The Te-Si axis that school squeezes out in me was burning me out already, and I find the Ne-Ti axis to be good sanctuary. I probably don't wanna give up intellectual competence, so I just shifted to my innate Ne-Ti functions. It's not as burdening as the Si-Te-J combo.

Still, whether it's the STJ axis or the NTP axis that I'm using, it's not giving me the needed sociability that I like.

Since I know that Ti is my strongest, I thought that my Ne can lift up my shadow F.

I think, with that it, developed my Fi and the Ne would give me a considerable degree of eloquence (actually, my strongest functions right now are Ti, Ne, and Fi).

These cognitive processes help me have closer ties with some people, but it's still a longshot for me to consider myself as average sociable casual guy.

For one, Ne kills my Se/Si and my Fe is still weak, so the idea of flirting can be thus tempting.

Well, I don't wanna be cynical and say that I'm trying to flirt with someone just for the sheer gratification that I can tangibly do it on a casual basis.

I still feel that I do actually care for any person whom I may wanna flirt with.

 

[Totenkindly]

omg... Goof, I was hoping for a flirty response.

Here was what I originally wrote, then decided to post something outside the box. Maybe it's more on the level of where you want the discussion.

I think it depends on the type of flirting.

INTPs who have a nicely developed Ne will be wonderful at dancing and flitting around and being very imaginative with their flirting. The ones who still operate mainly with Ti in the outer world will probably not have nearly as much success (and that's what leads to the "wooden" caricature).

Flirting's about playfulness, mystery, insinuation, etc. As you say, the Ti thing often tries to give clarity, anchor things into place as best as possible, operate impersonally, is rooted in the data. It tries to explain too much and uses Ne to explore EVERY avenue of explanation.

For flirting, Ne (and Fe too, if you've got it -- you have to play off the conventions, stretching and flexing them) has to take the lead, using Ti as the support to tie it all together and to remain perceptive of the underlying messages.

I actually very do understand the Ne-Ti thing... that's what happened with me.

My mom is a fragile ISFJ, my dad an abrasive and rather insensitive ExTP. I was very reclusive and had lots of anxiety over any sort of social interaction.

What I did was gravitate towards the Ne as my primary "interface" and suppressed the Ti because having strong abstracted judgments would have only caused conflict in my family. This carried over into real life as well. Everyone loves Ne, it's fun and playful and flexy and funny. Couple that with Fe -- figuring out the social language of how to accurately express my various commitments/intentions to others -- and that's what I used for a long time to interact.

Only my closer friends (who I could trust), or those who read my writing, got to see Ti. It was like clockwork -- the first adjectives people had for me were "creative" and "kind"... and then they were surprised to see that my mind worked as it did, if I ever let them in.

It's been said before on these boards, but Ne is the key for an INTP to their Feeling side. it mimics some of the F functionality and provides a bridge for intellectual empathy, which then can be translated into "feeling-like" connections. In general, my imagination creates the first connection with others ("I imagine myself in their shoes"), then the feelings follow... but it's more like I'm feeling what I imagine they feel in their situation, rather than directly resonating with them.

I'm not much for "casual" flirting either, I get bored. I'm not sure how some people do it, but they don't seem to mind that it stays on a more shallow level. What I wrote above is not something I could actually prolong IRL, it gets old fast.

 

[Cypocalypse]

Jennifer,
Yeah, the quoted statement got everything essentially correct.

And I also notice that your avatar is Death. By the way, I'm also a bit of a Gaiman fan but reading X-Men (my avatar is Cyclops, obviously), prevents me financially from fully jumping to Sandman, even if the Absolute edition of the hardcovers makes everything accessible now.

And it's interesting how you chose Death over Dream. I also prefer the former. Though in reality, INTPs may be realistically closer to the Sandman, the persona of Death is an aspiration--epitome of the misery of death (an analogy of the coldness of the Ti) and yet there's an aspiration among us to be perky, like her.

No, seriously, I just changed the topic to Death for the meantime because I wanna establish a connection with you as of the moment. *wink* *wink* Well, that's your cue on how I do things. LOL!

But yeah, you're right. Casual flirting is not an INTP thing. It's like, when you developed a certain degree of strong intuition, it would be pretentious to think that your sensory functions are stronger. And that's a bias that INTPs would tend to always have on chit chat interactions because they, often times, involve S.

 

[Domino]

Rule #1 Caring about "getting" the girl is wrong.
Flirt for fun, for experimentation, just to cheer someone up or anything other than "getting your leg over". Such deceit is not only reprehensible but also can lead you to be discovered. That kind of stain is difficult to remove and really spoils the fun.

But that's all I wanted *you* for, Xander. Yes, that's right! I wanted you for your BODY! Stop. CRYING!

Hell I've had to dress down more than one NF for being tactless!!

You mean you didn't like my hands in your pockets? Hmm. *puzzles* That's rude? The yetis who raised me didn't teach me anything about that - they didn't wear pants, you see. My bad!

The two INTPs I know are completely wooden when it comes to flirting.

I've had trouble in this area too. Two INTPs - one EXTREMELY rigid guy (but gorgeous, and worth wearing down ) and one (yes, very cute) who wasn't rigid at all but totally married. *exasperation*

(I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Cary Elwes exists. Just sayin'. )

The ENTPs, not a problem. They come right out and grab you.

 

[Totenkindly]

And I also notice that your avatar is Death. By the way, I'm also a bit of a Gaiman fan but reading X-Men (my avatar is Cyclops, obviously), prevents me financially from fully jumping to Sandman, even if the Absolute edition of the hardcovers makes everything accessible now.

Not too different after all, then -- my first love was X-Men.

The first issue I ever bought was #162 (where Wolvie fights off the implanted brood hatchling), and then I ended up reading for the next ten years or so, at least, plus collecting the old Claremont/Byrne back issues. Very awesome stuff. I stopped sometime after #300, I was tiring of the constant changes to the characters that broke continuity or dragged things out unnecessarily.

(I recently started collecting the new Astonishing X-Men series, but stopped due to money... I am figuring they are releasing them all as compilations every so often, and it's cheaper to buy the books than the individual issues.)

btw, I have my avatars turned off much of the time... so I didn't notice Cyclops. Very cool, tho.

And it's interesting how you chose Death over Dream. I also prefer the former. Though in reality, INTPs may be realistically closer to the Sandman, the persona of Death is an aspiration--epitome of the misery of death (an analogy of the coldness of the Ti) and yet there's an aspiration among us to be perky, like her.

In many ways, my life has more resembled Morpheus.... and I see the same passivity there.. and the commitment to responsibility (and accompanying self-recrimination) regardless of the pain. I so much understand what it is like to be unable to make a firm break and instead subtly "setting things up" that events might conspire to make my decisions for me.

But how I like to interact with people is more like Death. Low-key, quirky, kind, perceiving what's going on in the large scale, light encouragement laced with honesty.

No, seriously, I just changed the topic to Death for the meantime because I wanna establish a connection with you as of the moment. *wink* *wink* Well, that's your cue on how I do things. LOL!

mmmm... well, you're not supposed to EXPLAIN it.

But note that that's how I make connections too: Instead of the flirty stuff, I usually try to find a common topic of interest, searching for something evocative to both of us. You think that might be more typical INTP behavior? It's definitely more mentally stimulating and builds a real sense of connection for me.

But yeah, you're right. Casual flirting is not an INTP thing. It's like, when you developed a certain degree of strong intuition, it would be pretentious to think that your sensory functions are stronger. And that's a bias that INTPs would tend to always have on chit chat interactions because they, often times, involve S.

I can't begin to tell you how, when younger, I despised Small Talk. But unfortunately, you usually can't get into Deep Talk with anyone until you cross the Small Talk hurdle. And it does have its place.

 

[Totenkindly]

But that's all I wanted *you* for, Xander. Yes, that's right! I wanted you for your BODY! Stop. CRYING!

*confused*

What sort of body does Xander have that I've never heard about yet?!

You mean you didn't like my hands in your pockets? Hmm. *puzzles* That's rude? The yetis who raised me didn't teach me anything about that - they didn't wear pants, you see. My bad!

*Scribbles in "Flirting Advice" pad* = "Reference yeti and sasquatch and other big hairy guys, to spur on jealousy and competition in the relatively inadequate male homo sapien"

(I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Cary Elwes exists. Just sayin'.)

As you wish, hon.
I still think dashing pirates abound, tho.

The ENTPs, not a problem. They come right out and grab you.

Um.. yeah. Make sure you're carrying a big stick. Or a gun. Or something. (Hmm, maybe a "list of chores" would repel them adequately?)

 

[Domino]

*confused*

What sort of body does Xander have that I've never heard about yet?!

Inflatable Lou Ferrigno.

*Scribbles in "Flirting Advice" pad* = "Reference yeti and sasquatch and other big hairy guys, to spur on jealousy and competition in the relatively inadequate male homo sapien"

Also, not wearing pants. Then I won't be confused by the pockets again.

As you wish, hon.
I still think dashing pirates abound, tho.

Do they? Tell them to give me a call.

Um.. yeah. Make sure you're carrying a big stick. Or a gun. Or something. (Hmm, maybe a "list of chores" would repel them adequately?)

lol!! Brilliant!

 

[Totenkindly]

Inflatable Lou Ferrigno.

Lou'd be green with envy over Xander, methinks.

Also, not wearing pants. Then I won't be confused by the pockets again.

Drat! No pants! I always forget the pantless thing. *scribbles in notebook*

Wait. What about knickers? Or jocks?

lol!! Brilliant!

Well, I have to say, I know my ENTPs (and Qs).

 

[Jae Rae]

Well, I don't wanna be cynical and say that I'm trying to flirt with someone just for the sheer gratification that I can tangibly do it on a casual basis.

I still feel that I do actually care for any person whom I may wanna flirt with.

I agree with your last sentence. While some types flirt for fun, I think INTPs flirt with those in whom they're interested. Casual flirting is not an INT thing.

I don't remember flirting much with my INTP husband. We went right to a deep connection within days of meeting each other.

What I'm saying is, you don't necessarily need to know how to flirt well to get a girl.

Jae Rae

 

[SillySapienne]

What I'm saying is, you don't necessarily need to know how to flirt well to get a girl.

Agreed!!!

If anything, I am a bit wary of male flirts, and my ex was/is literally incapable of "flirting", he could be silly sometimes but only when in a sincerely silly mood, which was rare. And he would rarely flatter me for flattery's sake. Flirting is a kind of a more derived/contrived form of communication, and for some of us, like me, it can be fun to engage in, but for others, like my ex, it can be viewed as being a fake, affected and hence unnecessary thing to engage oneself in.

Basically, flirting is optional.

 

[nozflubber]

"Flirting is a kind of a more derived/contrived form of communication"

That's what I mean by flirting being an act that lacks sincerity and integrity. This leads to social retards like myself being hurt oftentimes. thx capn!

 

[Firelie]

So I'm curious...what sorts of things/behaviors do INTPs do that are part of flirting? I'm probably going on a date with an INTP this weekend, it'd be nice to know the signs so I don't ignore them...

 

[Cypocalypse]

Firelie, this is an interaction I had with an ESFP friend.

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ESFP girl: Hey, uhmmm....thanks for inviting me to XXXX's party. I really enjoyed it.

Me: Well, for one, I wanted to see you.

ESFP girl: And...uhmmmm.....why's that?

Me: Well, you'll be out of the city by about a week. That time frame is quite lengthy.

ESFP girl: I thought you're going to say that you wanna see me because I'm pretty.

Me: Well, see, I couldn't get that explicit. Cut me some slack. I have to make that excuse, of course. Now, pretend that you actually buy it.

ESFP girl: You are a big............flirt.

Me: =)

__________________________

Some notes:
1. The girl is not really that flirtatious or slutty. Her Fi still gives her a good overall character. But notice how strong her open-ended statements were (must be caused by her extroversion plus perception).

2. Her SP shows that she has a knack for artistry. She now trying to take a shot at writing (an NP forte). Her sensory functions may imply that she's good in deriving ideas from what she may have previously read, and her FP axis would imply that she may want to start writing things for her own.

She let me read her story once, and it was my Ne-Ti axis that interpreted it, and she's kinda amazed that I see something like that in her work. That's how the initial connection began. Probably, she wants her Ne to jack up and she sees me as a help for that.

3. Notice how I try to keep my composure on how I say things. I made an open ended answer to her question, and ended it up with a deadpan-humored icebreaker. It's an NT thing. They don't want to be the first to chuckle at their own insinuation. They'll play this mystified, open-ended, intellectual conversation like crazy.

My basic routine is....
a. Establish deep ties in the most efficient way. Always be nice and make the girl feel secure. I don't think that stereotypical cockiness works, unless the girl is a stereotypical shallow SF

b. Flirt subtly (Ne). Just like what Jennifer said, flirtation is an art of the mystified. It's supposed to be a guessing game.

c. Finalize it with an icebreaker (Ne). In theory, the icebreaker should be offsetting the flirtation in case it went out of control and make you cocky. but also, it shows an INTP's sense of humor and may actually be a compliment to the initial flirtation statement. Two hit combo, actually.

______________________

Seeing that you're an INTJ......hmmm....

As an INTP, I don't like INTJ's that much because they remind me of my college professors back then who are there because of their intellect, but still couldn't communicate effectively.

1. INTPs aren't really fond of Te, so don't define the date with recreational activities or extreme technicalities and specifics of certain ideas. The INTP would probably enjoy a more tranquil atmosphere where there's a good opportunity for a conversation.

2. If you push your J too much, the INTP's Ne-P axis would be tempted to play the role of the devil's advocate and this may not do well in your interaction with the person.

3. Your Ni would probably the binding agent of the date. Jack it up.

 

[Cypocalypse]

Another thing, the things I've listed above will hardly work with a girl with a very strong SF axis or with anyone who doesn't give a damn about N, at all. I gave up on that a long time ago. LOL!