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[ENTP] ENTP + moral dilemmas

The Great One

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Okay, so I'm trying to figure myself out lately. Suddenly everything makes no sense to me, and I'm really trying to make sense of it all. My moral values are very tricky and they change with the wind. I seem to be an ENTP personality type, but I am much more moral than most ENTP types. However, when I break a moral value I don't feel a sense of conviction, but more of a sense of fear.

I was brought up in a ridiculously religious Christian family, and they installed in me very heavy "Christian morals". I was ridiculously religious as a child, but I'm not really that really that religious now. I mean, I keep the religion, but I wouldn't call myself a "Jesus Freak" or anything like that by any means.

Anyway, my parents really seemed to use the mental, "stick" method in order to control me as a child and I really didn't realize it. Whenever I would do something that they deemed bad, they would say something to the affect of "God will severely punish you for this" or some bullshit like that. Anyway, I believe myself to have a very heavy enneagram 6 fixture and may very possibly be a core 6. So when they said this it really messed me up, because my mind naturally thinks of like 1000 different ways that God, Karma, or whatever could punish me for my wrong doings.

This was a very big problem for me, because it really affected my life in every situation. I would constantly be in situations where I had to "so called" sin, but others would give me reassurance that I was "sinning" for good reason. In fact if I didn't get other's reassurance then I would believe that I would somehow be "punished" for my wrongdoings. For example, I would be in sales and I would lie to people all day long to sell products. Now when I had others around me to reassure me that lying wasn't really bad to sell the products because it really wasn't hurting anyone, then I felt fine with it. I just said to myself, "I lie in order to sell, and I sell in order to survive. The job market is tough, and I am doing this to survive. So therefore, I am doing nothing wrong."

The thing is though, that I seem to need others around me to dictate my moral values. I really don't like moral values to tell the truth, and would prefer to just do what I think each situation calls for. In fact, many times I think that one has to do what society would consider bad, in order to do good in the long run. My question is though, what is wrong with me? Is this just a case of me needing to develop my Ti and I am letting Fe dictate my moral values? Also, is there maybe some Si poking it's way through? Could this be a 6 thing as well? What the hell is wrong with me?

[MENTION=8543]Nerd Girl[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] you may want to check out this thread as well.
 

Eljeffeboss

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I think that all your life you've had external entities dictate your morality for you without giving you enough of a reasonable justification for them. As an NT you need to be able to justify your beliefs to yourself and if you can't then you're obviously going to have some trouble sticking to that belief (like you said, you're values "change like the wind"). What you need to do is stop looking externally for moral guidance and ask yourself what you really think is right and what you think is wrong. Personally, I think you could benefit from checking out virtue ethics because that seems pretty in line with what you want for doing what the situation calls for.
 

The Great One

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I think that all your life you've had external entities dictate your morality for you without giving you enough of a reasonable justification for them. As an NT you need to be able to justify your beliefs to yourself and if you can't then you're obviously going to have some trouble sticking to that belief (like you said, you're values "change like the wind"). What you need to do is stop looking externally for moral guidance and ask yourself what you really think is right and what you think is wrong. Personally, I think you could benefit from checking out virtue ethics because that seems pretty in line with what you want for doing what the situation calls for.

I appreciate this post. You don't think that I could possibly be an Fi user (ENFP) in disguise do you?
 

The Great One

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It's definitely a possibility. What do you think?

I would have to go more with an ENTP typing for a number of reasons. First, most Fi user's moral values are set in stone, and do not change. Next, Fi users make their own moral values based on how they feel about things, and the how the general populace feels about something has no baring on their morals (again it's all about how they feel about something). Finally, Fi moral values are not situational and Fi users generally won't find it acceptable to break a moral value based on a situation. In fact, if Fi users feel that they have broken a moral value the majority of them will actually go back and re-analyze ways that they could avoid that situation in the future and not break one of their moral values again.

I am not like this. My moral values tend to never be constant, they come from an external source, and they tend to often be flexible based on different situations. This is much more a Ti<Fe thing.

[MENTION=14757]Doctorjuice[/MENTION] you may want to check out this thread as well
 

Doctorjuice

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[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]

I read the OP and your last post. I don't see anything wrong with you at all, you're just a very moral person. I think you have a misconception about ENTPs not being moral or something. They certainly can be. I would say that an ENTP is more likely to put morals aside than an ENFP but that doesn't mean that some ENTPs can't be extremely moral.
 

The Great One

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[MENTION=14757]Doctorjuice[/MENTION]

So what the hell is wrong with me then?
 

The Great One

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Nothing, as far as I can tell...

Do you feel something is?

I want to do away with moral values and go with logic on several situations but my belief systems that were ingrained in me since I was a child keep me from doing so.
 

Eljeffeboss

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I want to do away with moral values and go with logic on several situations but my belief systems that were ingrained in me since I was a child keep me from doing so.

Then maybe those belief systems are the problem. Have you ever thought about whether you agree with them?
 

The Great One

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Then maybe those belief systems are the problem. Have you ever thought about whether you agree with them?

I'm kind of going through and sorting through what I believe in and what I don't right now. It's a difficult process.
 

Eljeffeboss

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I'm kind of going through and sorting through what I believe in and what I don't right now. It's a difficult process.

Yeah I know what that's like. But I think it's better to be honest with yourself and approach the world objectively than to ignore facts and sort of live a lie if you know what I mean. If you intuitively disagree with an idea than that's a good red flag that it might not be right. But it'll definitely help to get your beliefs in order before you start trying to tackle ethics.
 
A

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I want to do away with moral values and go with logic on several situations but my belief systems that were ingrained in me since I was a child keep me from doing so.

My morals were beaten into me with a cowboy belt, yeehaw! So no, there's no dilemma here. I know exactly who I am, and I'm proud.
 

Doctorjuice

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I want to do away with moral values and go with logic on several situations but my belief systems that were ingrained in me since I was a child keep me from doing so.

If it helps you feel better, I pay attention to the morals and the emotions of others quite a bit, I care very much about how I affect others and what others think of me.

Logic doesn't really conflict with that.
 

Blackmail!

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I think you're confusing personal ethics (i.e. kantian categorical imperative: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law") and normative religious morals.

They are not the same. The firsts are deduced when you interact with people, the seconds are forced onto you by others, and you are supposed to obey them without question.
 

Fleeting

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I've been going through something similar, and I've come to terms with it.

I'm definitely more naturally an ENTP, but the reason I second-guessed this is because of past tendencies towards pleasing others. And the fact that I actually feel things.

I reason that an ENTP is just so naturally good at adapting. Regardless of the way our mental processes are inclined, we are shaped by our environments. It's conditioning.

Because, through my external environment and people, I was given the impression that there wasn't a rational or logical bone in my body, I reasoned that I should rely more on the other thing in order to succeed in my environment.

Only problem was, of course, that as good as we are at adapting, we may not feel very at home in how we decide we need to survive.

I've decided this almost for sure now. I know that I have depth and feelings, because in my environment I was forced to express them, and told how to understand them, although never really able to understand them on more than a superficial level.

We're not all variants of the Joker from Batman.

If you look at ENTP comedians, such as Bill Maher or George Carlin, there is no lack of feeling, or passion. There's no 'lack of morals', or 'ethics'. They are very strongly attuned to injustice, and the way the world should be around them. They try to speak out and get people to understand this through their work.

It's just impossible to understand feelings from an objective standpoint. And I think that's why we second guess ourselves.
 

funkadelik

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I don't know why you'd got it in your head that having morals and a code of ethics is illogical.

Morals and ethics are very important for the functioning of our society. It's when you let strong beliefs cloud your better judgment or shield you from the truth that things become a problem.

And it honestly doesn't sound like you've got a problem. It sounds like you're trying to root out those blinding beliefs and replace them with impartiality. So don't beat yourself up about it...we've all got them. Also don't think that it makes you weak or illogical: just human, yo.
 

EcK

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I don't know why you'd got it in your head that having morals and a code of ethics is illogical.

Morals and ethics are very important for the functioning of our society. It's when you let strong beliefs cloud your better judgment or shield you from the truth that things become a problem.
.
+1 (or horizontal 8 if you want to be all dramatic about it )
 

The Great One

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Yeah I know what that's like. But I think it's better to be honest with yourself and approach the world objectively than to ignore facts and sort of live a lie if you know what I mean. If you intuitively disagree with an idea than that's a good red flag that it might not be right. But it'll definitely help to get your beliefs in order before you start trying to tackle ethics.

I think it's not necessarily that I don't want to be moral, it's that I don't want to fear being "punished" by an external force for things that society would consider unethical. I think it's a internal vs. external locus of control that I'm battling inside. I want to be in control of myself at all times, not someone or something else.

My morals were beaten into me with a cowboy belt, yeehaw! So no, there's no dilemma here. I know exactly who I am, and I'm proud.

And you accepted them without question? Also, did you ever feel like you will be "punished" by external forces such as God or Karma for your wrongdoings?

If it helps you feel better, I pay attention to the morals and the emotions of others quite a bit, I care very much about how I affect others and what others think of me.


Logic doesn't really conflict with that.

Good, I'm glad I'm not a total freak.

I've been going through something similar, and I've come to terms with it.

I'm definitely more naturally an ENTP, but the reason I second-guessed this is because of past tendencies towards pleasing others. And the fact that I actually feel things.

I reason that an ENTP is just so naturally good at adapting. Regardless of the way our mental processes are inclined, we are shaped by our environments. It's conditioning.

Because, through my external environment and people, I was given the impression that there wasn't a rational or logical bone in my body, I reasoned that I should rely more on the other thing in order to succeed in my environment.

Only problem was, of course, that as good as we are at adapting, we may not feel very at home in how we decide we need to survive.

I've decided this almost for sure now. I know that I have depth and feelings, because in my environment I was forced to express them, and told how to understand them, although never really able to understand them on more than a superficial level.

We're not all variants of the Joker from Batman.

If you look at ENTP comedians, such as Bill Maher or George Carlin, there is no lack of feeling, or passion. There's no 'lack of morals', or 'ethics'. They are very strongly attuned to injustice, and the way the world should be around them. They try to speak out and get people to understand this through their work.

It's just impossible to understand feelings from an objective standpoint. And I think that's why we second guess ourselves.

Thank you, it's always nice to know that there are others like myself out there.
 

Doctorjuice

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And also if someone tries hard to be moral or please others I don't think that makes it less likely that they're ENTP. ENTPs use Fe a significant amount and working to please others and paying attention to the emotions of others are characteristics of Fe.
 
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