[ENTP] ENTP + moral dilemmas

[EcK]

I've been going through something similar, and I've come to terms with it.

I'm definitely more naturally an ENTP, but the reason I second-guessed this is because of past tendencies towards pleasing others. And the fact that I actually feel things.

Well thank you,
That wasn't patronizing at all

dont go confused aspies and Ts now.

 

[Fleeting]

Well thank you,
That wasn't patronizing at all

dont go confused aspies and Ts now.

Yeah, well, descriptions on the internet don't do the actual ENTP persons justice. If I came across as patronizing, it was only because it was in reference to the way descriptions make us sound.

In reality, of course, we are awesome. At least the mature ones. Aw, heck. The immature ones too.

 

[EcK]

Yeah, well, descriptions on the internet don't do the actual ENTP persons justice. If I came across as patronizing, it was only because it was in reference to the way descriptions make us sound.

In reality, of course, we are awesome. At least the mature ones. Aw, heck. The immature ones too.

People keep calling me mature these days. Like its impressive and all. While Im generally acting like a cheerful people loving puppy in my opinion. *scratches head*
I guess i got recategorized in the 'high energy sociable people''category somewhere during the last year.
I know I m generalizing but people tend to assume that if (in my case at least) i dont seem to take anything personally it means that I dont care about anything. I m sure I have some natural facilities when it comes to that but I believe its mostly because I ''Ne - Ti'' first, there is emotion its just not deemed a priority in good decision making. The few times I take things very personally can be 1) always part showmanship due to necessity 2) something quite Armageddon-like compounded with well, repeated insults to my intelligence. Sometimes passivity makes me angry, I think its because I used to be more passive and I hated it.

Otherwise yeah, not much touches me and I know I can ''leave or fix it'' pretty much on demand.

 

[The Great One]

And also if someone tries hard to be moral or please others I don't think that makes it less likely that they're ENTP. ENTPs use Fe a significant amount and working to please others and paying attention to the emotions of others are characteristics of Fe.

I guess that's true, isn't it?

 

[Vilku]

I would have to go more with an ENTP typing for a number of reasons. First, most Fi user's moral values are set in stone, and do not change. Next, Fi users make their own moral values based on how they feel about things, and the how the general populace feels about something has no baring on their morals (again it's all about how they feel about something). Finally, Fi moral values are not situational and Fi users generally won't find it acceptable to break a moral value based on a situation. In fact, if Fi users feel that they have broken a moral value the majority of them will actually go back and re-analyze ways that they could avoid that situation in the future and not break one of their moral values again.

I am not like this. My moral values tend to never be constant, they come from an external source, and they tend to often be flexible based on different situations. This is much more a Ti<Fe thing.

[MENTION=14757]Doctorjuice[/MENTION] you may want to check out this thread as well

"First, most Fi user's moral values are set in stone, and do not change. Next, Fi users make their own moral values based on how they feel about things, and the how the general populace feels about something has no baring on their morals"
set on stone.. i made a decision when i were eight, to be a good person, and i never break promises unless they become obsolete.
cause of this reason, ive never in my whole life had to listen to my nor anyone elses feelings for moral guidance, perhaps this has neglected my feelings.
knowing what is right and wrong has always been obvious to me, to the extend of not really having to do anything else than analyze the situations and factors included to know the correct answers as long as all necessary information is available, when not then its left to statistical chances.
for example, one or five people have to die, you dont know any of them, thereofore chances are in favour of the five persons posessing a more valuable individual than the one. although, chances are an illusion created by the lack of knowledge, and as such the one could easily be someone who outweights the contributional value of the five or in the five might be individuals who do more damage than good, in overall morality and worth of individual can be measured with mathematics, science and psychology.

ive never done anything which could possibly by any means violate the promise i made, as my only mistakes have brought demise to myself and myself alone.

maybe this fact i dont need feelings of anyone at all to judge if something is right or wrong gives an entirely different purpose for my feelings. that, of a reason to live.

i actually just right now some minutes ago had a funny experience. i saw a dog used as a tool of "art" to decorate a youtube video, with hands trying to frantically capture an invisible force on the air like that of emperor in star wars when summmoning lightning, i tried to feel angry as myself have been permanently physically damaged by a dog, and consider the existence of that domesticating that specie immoral and utterly selfish due its damage to innocents.

but i couldnt, im just that good person.. lol, ridiculous. so when you see random people acting like they tried to summon lightning from their finger tips, you might have a jedi in your hands.

also i would like to point out, my morals are very elusive, based completely on the use of knowledge to apart right from wrong. and knowledge, is an elusive force.


and i would like to point out, if you can form a strong link between Fe and Si, you get an innate sense of the exterior morals have a direct, connection to your internal world. infj's are the best source for aid in establishing such link for an entp, and they love to help where they know it will last.


i myself am struggling with freeing myself from past chains, i can give you one valuable tip: be resilient, if you never give up from trying to be whole with yourself, youll eventually succeed. only when all four functions function in harmony, does happiness exist. your not an individual, your a community of neural networks doing a teamwork with each having their own task, and only through it can you become a whole individual.

an immature entp can be out of sync with their morals, while after maturing they become the ones to set moral standards for societies, with infj's playing the background role of aiding entp's to reach such state in the first place. nature made the system perfect, and without using it reaching maturity is much harder and slower. so.. hunt for infj friends if your certain of your cognitive preference xD..

EDIT:
my only experiences with feeling guilt, are something i laughed almost instantly afterwards. mostly, prejudiced judgment of something being wrong with what i did, when i were in fact lacking the necessary knowledge to make such an judgement due the reason of them not being actions related to morality at all in the first place, making it only ever more ridiculous.

if you wonder to what event im referring, well.. as a 4w3, im a desperate .. melodrama lover, and having everything i touch clean is of utter importance as i always keep my hands clean to prevent electronics from getting dirttyy as we all know they cant be cleaned with waterr.. and i made the quick assesment of others holding it as deeply important due a haste no thinking decision, where i really didnt do anything wrong considering others dont hold such values, but my values interwened due my disattentiveness to their rationality as the situation didnt need it in the first place, but without it ridiculous assumptions can be made in a whim.

another edit:
i also consider values as mere shortcuts to quickly recall what you have rationalized already, like how i have rationalized the necessity of hand hygiene when using electronics, and as such feelings are much quicker to notify when a potential error might be occuring.

 

[The Great One]

[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION]

That you for that. I now realize that I need an INFJ in order to help me to sort out my so called, "moral values". If any INFJ on this site wants to help me with this please feel free to PM me. Also, I don't seem to relate to what you say about Fi at all. My moral values are not set in stone at all. I must be ENTP

 

[Vilku]

[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION]

That you for that. I now realize that I need an INFJ in order to help me to sort out my so called, "moral values". If any INFJ on this site wants to help me with this please feel free to PM me. Also, I don't seem to relate to what you say about Fi at all. My moral values are not set in stone at all. I must be ENTP

its funny.. we live, in illusion. we think we are in control, but in the end we only see the half of truth. the other half is that of extro functions, which will never truly give data for the internal functions.. they only filter each other, but never do they combine to break the illusion we all live in. as such, comparison to the opposites seems to be the only possible way to figure out what your not seeing, what you can never see yourself.
and not to mention, once you flip your functions, you lose _everything_ you have processed with the one before that, all is simply obsolete to the new function. until you switch back.
we are in the illusion of seeing whole picture, yet no matter who you are, without someone else with opposing function and well working communication in between, youll never see the whole.

to get your hunt started, i would recommend visiting http://www.infjs.com/forums to profilize what an infj is like, where you are most likely to find them.. considering how rare they are, my only infj ive met was a psychologist.. (smart one, unliek the typical arrogant psychologist who has got enough of her job) and also i suspect i met one extremely immature infj who thought it was completely justified how someone physically attacked me based on their misperception of me speaking about them when i spoke with a female and laugh. you know, the arrogant self hating people who believe _everyone_ speaks of them when no one even cares enough to acknowledge their presence. the immature fe + se logic is something i hate most when it comes to morals, without honed ni + ti they are more damage than good.

the way i do it: combine all infj's, what they all have in common? their cognitive preferance. and then, step in their shoes: how and where is a person with this preference likely to spend their lives at? not to mention personality distribution is very much not equal, as certain kind of cities and environments for example attract different people. but im certain you can figure out the rest with Ti after profilizing infj's commonalities.

the cooperation internal and external functions do easily give the illusion.. its important for us all to remember we arent whole.
on enfp loop im afraid to look at my Si as it becomes overwhelming as the deep feelings take over, and then the fear of losing control severs the bond. while on infp loop nothing feels as good as pain, i literally lay on my bed listening to the music which evokes the most painful feelings and purposefully concentrate on the pain inside my head to make it as painful as possible. we probably share more in common with our sensor cousins than intro brothers.

i suppose for us ENP's, the problem arises from our secondary function forming a direct link with fourth until the third is developed enough to form a formidable filter enough for us to see the fourth with clarity.

oh, and on topic: ive met one intj, not that i even knew the person that well due limited contact, but around him i dont feel afraid of painful feelings. i suspect the interaction causes third function for enp's to be maximized and thus the bridge can be formed safely.
not to mention, it most likely only works with AAAA + BABB as for enp's that means, we arent using our Ne + Je's to create a favourable yet in controversy to our deeper identity image as we must for any other personality, due their expectations on which Ne is quick to pick even without your awareness of it.. which explains why sometimes i feel like i just cant be myself around most people, as Ne understand the other persons radically different way of experiencing the world and thus adapts. the difference between switching the intro and extro orientation alone cause a massive difference, as for ENP's when switching intro, its as if you lose control of your perspective entirely, you see what ever Ne feeds to the Si. zero control at malluebing your perspective. no looking at this or that angle, there is only one angle for INP's. their own. same goes for all other personalities where Pe dominates Pi in data flow direction. (4th function has control over 1st in the sense 1st depends on 4th for its self adjusting.) Pe > Pi also creates the illusion of no control over your environment, the infamous istp's "what happens happens" some tend to hold until maturing with Fe(which gives a sense of control).

ugh.. i desperately need to train my Si so as not to lose control like this..

but one effective solo method to train your fourth ans an ENP is using Je to scan for all possible ways you can perceive something, for you that means thinking over all possible ways to feel external aspects and once you find the ones you consider most positive, allow them to control your Si, your perspective. the key is in figuring out how to build a strong bond between your Je and Pi, otherwise both are out of sync without sense of control as you have described. (and thats caused by the fact, Si controls Pe in ENP's. and Pe equals actions in the sense, if you cant perceive something you cant act upon properly.)

the error happens usually cause of this: when alone, an incomplete Je allows a packet through which repeats itslf through the cycle eventually coming again at Ji, who in turn is in control of Je causing a negative paradox of compromised data packets being sent in a loop, for enfp that would explain why ive my whole life hated eating, without Te being able to interfere and tell how irrational the hate loop is due the fact its controlled by the Fi in the first place. in where an intj observing me could have easily pointed out the cause with use of Ni and explain with Te, thus repairing the error. infj would work the very same way for you, to spot the errors and repair them.

(and those painful never lasting loops i learned to escape by altering my cognitive functions.. if only modern psychology wasnt so primitive, plain useless. i even were a few years off my home for testings, but just how could they possibly figure nature already invented solutions to _every_ psychological problem. study nature with nature, ignoring is alike studying one piece of puzzle in hopes it would solve everything. when in fact, you need every piece to see it, obviously.)

since entp's are the masters of figuring who would come along with who on ti side, i suspect enfps were the specialists on the other side of fence, purposefully made by nature so as for us to juggle right people together to repair and grow each other.

 

[The Great One]

[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION]

Well um....thanks for that.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]

I think something is wrong. Whether that thing actually exists is the problem. I don't think you are conflicting with your morals, I think you are conflicting with how you think you should handle these morals. Handle them like you would without any influence from thought. Don't think about how you would fix them, just fix them and then determine from that how you fixed them.

An issue like this should be solved by a means other than trying to figure out your type. Multi-tasking isn't real anyway.

 

[Vilku]

[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]

I think something is wrong. Whether that thing actually exists is the problem. I don't think you are conflicting with your morals, I think you are conflicting with how you think you should handle these morals. Handle them like you would without any influence from thought. Don't think about how you would fix them, just fix them and then determine from that how you fixed them.

An issue like this should be solved by a means other than trying to figure out your type. Multi-tasking isn't real anyway.

multi tasking, not real? say that to the six people i real time chatted with none having an idea of the other fives existence.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

multi tasking, not real? say that to the six people i real time chatted with none having an idea of the other fives existence.

So you were focusing on every single one of them at the exact same time?

 

[Vilku]

So you were focusing on every single one of them at the exact same time?

exact same time? you do know, perception of time differs among individuals and depends on the state you are in. from their and your perspective yes, the same time, but from my perspective.. time slew down, cause my brains were more active.
this gave me potentially multitude of more time than what avarage human perceives in said time, allowing me a significant mental advantage.

and actually i told each of them of the other fives existence in the end which i held a one on one discussion with each about the same time with all the rest topics i chatted in real time with them.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION]

Don't avoid the question.

Doing two things at the exact same time (Why not use the good ole second) is what multi-tasking means. If you did not hold those conversations in your mind, because you are the one multi-tasking not them, then you were not doing so.

Tricking other people into thinking you are speaking to only them isn't multi-tasking. Because you have more time than them does not mean you were multi-tasking. Doing multiple things at once (remember that second?) is multi-tasking.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Oh, and this is not what the thread is about. Let the OP's topic breathe.

 

[Vilku]

[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION]

Don't avoid the question.

Doing two things at the exact same time (Why not use the good ole second) is what multi-tasking means. If you did not hold those conversations in your mind, because you are the one multi-tasking not them, then you were not doing so.

Tricking other people into thinking you are speaking to only them isn't multi-tasking. Because you have more time than them does not mean you were multi-tasking. Doing multiple things at once (remember that second?) is multi-tasking.

as how i would perceive time, in its most insignificant form, is ticks. we humans can never perceive these ticks as processing our minds alone takes an excessive amount of time, considering we dont even think in light speed.

as such, time as in sense of ticks is obsolete concept for we can never use it, and most likely not in scientific terms either.

not to mention, time could be an illusion.

as such your concept of time seems obsolete, plain useless in terms of usability for us humans.

from your perspective, if im able to hold 6 conversations in real time one on one with each while everyone is engaging with complete minds, that would effectively make it multi tasking as i keep track of each while juggling effectively and actually being the leader of each conversation. without messing any details in between, keeping each completely apart. isnt that the very definition of multi tasking? to keep track of multiple tasks without messing any up.

from my perspective time is elusive, i can change it to my will. by engaging in mental activities, my brains gain more power which subjectively "slows" time down as im able to perform significantly more mental tasks than what other humans could, or to what i normally would in comparison.

its a heightened state, like adrenaline of brains. just no chemical compounds i know of are required to triggering such state, only ones will to engage into full power is and something to engage at.

for example, subjectively in my sense of time, i once slept for 20 minutes which was subjectively experienced as 10 hours, such increase in performance is perceived as hyper activity from outside.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION] - You used the word juggling.

The brain cannot have two thoughts at the same time. Just because you were keeping everything on track does not mean that your mind was multi-tasking. It means you had the capability to switch between targets at a quick rate.

I want you to think about elephants at the very same time as typing your next post to me. And see if while you are trying to argue your point you can also think about elephants. Not elephants and then my post, or the other way around. Don't intertwine elephants into the post to make it seem like one idea. I want you to simultaneously think about them. That is the brain multi-tasking.

 

[Vilku]

[MENTION=15003]Vilku[/MENTION] - You used the word juggling.

The brain cannot have two thoughts at the same time. Just because you were keeping everything on track does not mean that your mind was multi-tasking. It means you had the capability to switch between targets at a quick rate.

I want you to think about elephants at the very same time as typing your next post to me. And see if while you are trying to argue your point you can also think about elephants. Not elephants and then my post, or the other way around. Don't intertwine elephants into the post to make it seem like one idea. I want you to simultaneously think about them. That is the brain multi-tasking.

not to mention, your model of time would also directly correlate in the very idea of cognitive functions being separate tasks, and effectively meaning we always multi task.


let me explain scientifically why what i did was multi tasking: humans have short memory, it can keep several objects in itself at the same time.
effectively, i handled them all the same time inside my mind, and as whenever an idea would pop out from there, i would express it correctly to the external world to its correct place, so as not to mess up the convos.

elephants, actually im effectively doing what you told as i write. with the use of my internal functions imagining elephant... standing on a savannah as i write while some unconscious part of me is doing the writing i now seem to be doing, funny.

that same tactic i use for many things, while one function in me keeps the external world busy, inside my mind im busy observing other details which might or might not bring fruit to the conversation, however these internal obervations do play an important role especially in terms of psychological self defense as well as for managing the external world into being interesting enough for the person im engaging and for myself.

in sense of cognition functions, it isnt considered thinking how i manage the elephant inside my mind right now for example, it is eating grass while i write. i can make it do anything i want while still being efficient with my linguistic delivery on something entirely else, although it does pay its cost in my brain power. but, doing enough this eventually makes me better at it and therefore it pays off rather quickly in surge of energy gain, making me talk ever faster, ever more and.. more, more of everything! =D...

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

not to mention, your model of time would also directly correlate in the very idea of cognitive functions being separate tasks, and effectively meaning we always multi task.


let me explain scientifically why what i did was multi tasking: humans have short memory, it can keep several objects in itself at the same time.
effectively, i handled them all the same time inside my mind, and as whenever an idea would pop out from there, i would express it correctly to the external world to its correct place, so as not to mess up the convos.

elephants, actually im effectively doing what you told as i write. with the use of my internal functions imagining elephant... standing on a savannah as i write while some unconscious part of me is doing the writing i now seem to be doing, funny.

that same tactic i use for many things, while one function in me keeps the external world busy, inside my mind im busy observing other details which might or might not bring fruit to the conversation, however these internal obervations do play an important role especially in terms of psychological self defense as well as for managing the external world into being interesting enough for the person im engaging and for myself.

in sense of cognition functions, it isnt considered thinking how i manage the elephant inside my mind right now for example, it is eating grass while i write. i can make it do anything i want while still being efficient with my linguistic delivery on something entirely else, although it does pay its cost in my brain power. but, doing enough this eventually makes me better at it and therefore it pays off rather quickly in surge of energy gain, making me talk ever faster, ever more and.. more, more of everything! =D...

There is a difference between thinking about elephants and typing out your thoughts than envisioning them and typing out your thoughts. Consciously trying to define the characteristics of an elephant at the same time as typing your thoughts is what I am asking.

Actually functions don't operate at the same time either.

 

[Vilku]

There is a difference between thinking about elephants and typing out your thoughts than envisioning them and typing out your thoughts. Consciously trying to define the characteristics of an elephant at the same time as typing your thoughts is what I am asking.

Actually functions don't operate at the same time either.

they dont? then explain me, how can i walk while im in my imagination world doing something entirely else. or how i can issue new command for my body to perform while its doing something already, nevertheless adjust these commands into perfectly meshing with the external world so as not to ruin the current task by either readjusting it or issuing entirely new commands in ways which would destroy the currently performed tasks.

not to mention, Si and Ne are connected, they perform movement as a teamwork. one first issuing command one way or another, then another doing rest of it while at all times, both are present as the task would be entirely impossible without the other.

i constructed an entirely original picture using only my knowledge gained from watching nature shows, even "drawing" it with my own style as i wrote to you.
its the same you would do when you speak while still using your Ni the same time for preconstructing the projection you aim to express, or the way Se dominates Ni for intjs when interacting with external world due the necessity of external observations, which can and do happen the same time. you dont stop perceiving momentarily just to adjust your intuition? no, uncosncoius and conscious do team work, both have separate masters which allows simultaneous cooperation which without you couldnt deliver anything intelligible out of your mouth.

to me it sounds like your conscious mind is under developed, unable to perform cooperation with intuition. probable reasons: intuition scared, of losing control. teamwork not achieved, peace negotiations necessary to achieve cooperation.

 

[The Great One]

[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]

I think something is wrong. Whether that thing actually exists is the problem. I don't think you are conflicting with your morals, I think you are conflicting with how you think you should handle these morals. Handle them like you would without any influence from thought. Don't think about how you would fix them, just fix them and then determine from that how you fixed them.

An issue like this should be solved by a means other than trying to figure out your type. Multi-tasking isn't real anyway.

So you are saying that you don't think that this is type related?