[MBTI General] NTP/SJ relations

[Ten]

I have read a lot in forumland about INTPs and ENTPs not getting along with each other but in real life I find that they seem to get along extremely well in most cases. INTPs and ENTPs that do not know about MBTI seem to have an especially high opinion of SJs but it seems fashionable amongst many that do know about MBTI to claim to dislike SJs.

I work with an ENTP who is especially fidgety and scatter-brained but very clever too, most days we work closely with two ISTJ women and one ISFJ woman amongst others. The ENTP is hyper active and comes up with vast amounts of ideas that mostly seem impractical to me. He very often just disappears from the unit where we work to go and socialize elsewhere. This is now starting to bother me a little because I often have to handle aspects of his work in his absence but the SJ women just love him and they jokingly make endless excuses for him. They laugh at his antics all day and they even bring in lunch to work for both him and an INTP man that works there... and these are highly professional women.

I am just so shocked at how happy the SJ women seem to be since the XNTPs have been with us. I have noticed that SJ women seem to delight in the child-like antics of Ne types including ENFPs and INFPs yet on these forums you hear so often of these types not getting along, in my world time and time again I keep seeing them getting along happily and they are often even married to each other. It seems SJ and Ne types have far more difficulties with Ni types than with each other.

 

[funkadelik]

Yeah I don't know what that's all about. One of my best friend's an ISFJ and she is delightful. The whole "N's and S's can't get along" thing is a load of horse vomit.

 

[entropie]

This is a very good perception, one I have been talking about for quite some time but nobody really paied attention. Since I am from Germany I came to think that living in SJ-central somehow made it easier for me to get along with SJs but compared to other people, which I'ld label Ns around here, especially NTP, I cant verify that result.

From the pure logical combination of functions, you can say NTP and SJ are predestined to work: TJs have both Ne in some sort of position of activation. I can say from my experience that the more troubles SJs have with the 'establishment' or the more willful they are to think for their own, the more they like to be around me.

It's a quite difficult to describve phaenomena I havent really fully understood myself. When I grew up my best friend was an ISTJ. He and me never really had the same thought processes but in a team we got along very well. When we were alone we mostly ended up drinking and talking about life, philosophy and the universe. He at some point got stressed through me, a thing that happens often to me with SJs (but not only SJs). When he and me were together with others we were the groups leaders. He kept up our groups traditions, so to say, what stabilized the group and made it a circle of friends that met regulary for over 10 years. We played cards, went to the same bar, sat at the same place, every meeting was like an endless loop of the first meeting. I on the other hand cared for the entertainment. I was nearly always able to bring up refreshing thoughts into the group, which werent worldly but rather abstract and they laughed about the joke itself, about me and about my way of thinking.

I was fine with that, cause I am as you say in german 'resting in myself'. I am an individualist and always did things cause they intrested me and not because they intrested other people as well. Of course its nice to have friends who are intrested in the same topics like you but I gave up on finding that around age 16. Plus its the loyality you experience in a group like that that is comforting. Germans generally communicate tougher and harder in group situations and its not uncommon that one person in a group is joked about. The SJs tho distribute that fairly. They can laugh about themselves and make jokes about others, whereas its fairly distributed so its not always the same person joked about. And if the group is challenged from the outside, all stand side by side and function as an unity.

The old group of friends sadly only regulary met for drinking later on. When I met my gf an isfp, she slowly hold me the mirror and showed me where I was going too. At the beginning I was defending my group and my way of life but there were already problems before I met her. I tried to meet with the group apart from drinking as well but we just found no common hobby. My hobbies are so uniquely different from what hobbies someone my age has 'in general' that it was most often me doing things I disliked for the sake of friendship. A boy my age was expected to be intrested in soccer and regulary go to the stadium or to joke about politics. A behaviour learnt by the old and adult people. I tho was intrested in math, physics and engineering. I liked to build robots and electro-mechanical gadgets or I liked to play board games or computer games. So a separation was already taking place.

I had in the whole 10 year friendship with the group of SJs another group of people that gave me enough alternatives. Both groups never became friends with each other, but thats a common denominator in all my life; I have always been friend to many, which not necessarily were friends to each other. That other group were computer nerds, mostly N-types and we formed a so called 'clan' in which we had 30 members at peak times and played an online game professionally. They even made me clan leader, cause I am good at organizing stuff. Sadly this group fall apart when school ended and people went to different universities. I am still friends with a lot of people from that group but now on another level.

When that group fell apart, I had 'only' the SJ group with the serious drinking problem and if I hadnt met my gf, I'ld prolly still have a drinking problem as well. Now I am sober for 2 years and finally started a life. Got a demanding job full of responsibility, closing in on my Master degree and work 60 hours the week. The old group tho remained doing what it has been doing and I am having a bad conciencse if I shouldnt have assumed more responsibility to help those people getting lifes of their own. But I have learnt in life that I can not be the one resonpsible for everyone else and that they have to figure themselves and will figure themselves. My gf taught me some sort of healthy egoism.

Then came the funny part: my new job is in administration. Basically the administrations goal is to develop my hometowns economy and to bring new ideas, industry and jobs here. For that tho they are hardly qualified most of the time, cause they have learnt administration. So they hired me as an engineering consultant being able to shed some more light on certain complicated stuff. The funny thing is: I am working again in SJ-central. And its like you described basically: I am an entertainer to all the SJs, they have to make up at times for my work cause I suck with routine and my boss is an ESTJ female who has brought herself in some kind of mentoring position, in which she tries to change me according to her ideal. I am playing along with all of that, cause the jobs leaves me with enough time to pursue the things that intrest me and the job is great cause it feeds on new ideas. I basically can the whole day have crazy ideas and come up with stuff and its exactly what those people want. I have written pages long essays on how to develop our hometown industrially and two ideas already are becoming reality.

I have no idea why that NTP, SJ combination is working somehow. Its not really fullfilling for both parties I guess and its like two cogs, shaped badly against each others, turning. I'ld like to hear more theories and ideas about this concept as well. I am pretty much at the beginning of thought here as well.

 

[Society]

ISFJs = Si>Fe>Ti>Ne
ENTPs = Ne>Ti>Fe>Si
and
ESFJs = Fe>Si>Ne>Ti
INTPs = Ti>Ne>Si>Fe

basically either way you get the opposite order in the 4 main functions:
dominant function = inferior function
auxiliary function = tertiary function
each other's strengths = each other's weaknesses

that's being said, i'v recently had a couple of dates with an ISFJ who is way too religious and conservative (jewish) for me, we clicked well, and at first i didn't think it was a big deal - i don't mind some ritual and traditions around, could be nice... but so many laws? not so much. so one hand you can't have anything "not serious" with her, on the other hand i don't want to live in a house where i'm not allowed to fry shrimps or do a marathon of the daily show on Saturday morning, and i don't want to raise kids who are terrified of eating a cheeseburger.

so if we are talking romantically, i'd say you should at least check that the values and traditions the SJ's Si is oriented towards are ones the NTP is comfortable with... i know that for me it may help if their chosen bible is somewhere between Atlas Shrugged to the Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.

if you are talking as friendships, then yes, you are very much correct.

 

[SilkRoad]

On forums such as this, it's usually the NTs complaining about the SJs, and not the other way around...for what that's worth...

 

[Rasofy]

I think ISFJs are great. I don't like the others much. Either too loud or too stubborn or too boring (and sometimes these characteristics come in combo :horor.

 

[Giggly]

I have read a lot in forumland about INTPs and ENTPs not getting along with each other but in real life I find that they seem to get along extremely well in most cases. INTPs and ENTPs that do not know about MBTI seem to have an especially high opinion of SJs but it seems fashionable amongst many that do know about MBTI to claim to dislike SJs.

I work with an ENTP who is especially fidgety and scatter-brained but very clever too, most days we work closely with two ISTJ women and one ISFJ woman amongst others. The ENTP is hyper active and comes up with vast amounts of ideas that mostly seem impractical to me. He very often just disappears from the unit where we work to go and socialize elsewhere. This is now starting to bother me a little because I often have to handle aspects of his work in his absence but the SJ women just love him and they jokingly make endless excuses for him. They laugh at his antics all day and they even bring in lunch to work for both him and an INTP man that works there... and these are highly professional women.

I am just so shocked at how happy the SJ women seem to be since the XNTPs have been with us. I have noticed that SJ women seem to delight in the child-like antics of Ne types including ENFPs and INFPs yet on these forums you hear so often of these types not getting along, in my world time and time again I keep seeing them getting along happily and they are often even married to each other. It seems SJ and Ne types have far more difficulties with Ni types than with each other.

It's true we do delight in their child-like antics which can be distracting. I have an idea, why don't you say something to either the ENTP or the SJ women about the extra work you're having to do. Ask them to take it instead.

 

[INTP]

STJs can be ok, but i dont have any special interest in them. i got nothing against SFJs, but i couldnt really care less about them, what they say or what they do most the time(not saying that they are incapable of saying anything interesting).

i actually have an ISTJ and ESTJ friends, or actually the ISTJ i havent seen in few years and ESTJ i havent seen in almost a year and we never been really close(ISTJ and i were in the same class for 4 years and neither of us really got along with other guys in the class and hanged out like 4/7 days after school too).

but the problem with both of them is that they both really just have one interest(the same interest, even tho they dont know each other) along with drinking and some small stuff, and even tho its an common interest for me aswell, i want to talk about other things too and i dont care about that subject anymore so much.. with the ISTJ it was easier to joke around and we had similar sort of humor(or my humor could be narrowed to his humor) and we had fun just joking around.

i actually know another ESTJ also who is a friend of my best friends and we get along fine(again only because of common interest) and it can be fun if he is around(doesent happen too often tho and only happens mainly in the summer), but im not like "YAY, hes coming to hang out with us".

even tho INTJs tend to get on my nerves more easily, i still prefer them over STJs(both are stubborn as hell, but STJs have their thoughts straightened up better, so their stubbornness isnt such a problem, they are less irrational with the things they are stubborn about), also i prefer NFJs over SFJs. SFJs tend to be such a pushovers that im simply not able to give them much respect(sorry SFJs on the forum ).

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah I don't know what that's all about. One of my best friend's an ISFJ and she is delightful. The whole "N's and S's can't get along" thing is a load of horse vomit.

Well, THAT generalized, definitely. You might as well say T's and F's can't get along.

I think it's a little trickier in a long-term romantic relationship, since the two have to be able to communicate effectively, sync up their goals and plans and dreams, etc. If they can communicate and be willing to compromise/share/respect each other, then it's possible there.

if it wasn't for extenuating circumstances, I'd still be with my SF ex. It took us years, but we did finally reach a point where we could respect and communicate. It's possible.

I've got people of all different types in my friends category, and some of the ones I love the most are SFJs. I think when they can look at the Ne stuff as not a disruption to their plans but as something refreshingly surprising and admirable, and we can respect the grounding and sensibility, then the relationship works out just fine.

STJs can be ok, but i dont have any special interest in them. i got nothing against SFJs, but i couldnt really care less about them, what they say or what they do most the time(not saying that they are incapable of saying anything interesting).

i actually have an ISTJ and ESTJ friends, or actually the ISTJ i havent seen in few years and ESTJ i havent seen in almost a year and we never been really close(ISTJ and i were in the same class for 4 years and neither of us really got along with other guys in the class and hanged out like 4/7 days after school too).

I find I do best with the ISTJs who are kind of flexy / relaxed... there's a subset of them who have some cultural interests (scifi, RPGs, musical groups, etc.) and aren't uptight about things. They tend to come off as a bit more geek/quirky in some ways, but are more adaptable and there are points of overlapping interest. I guess they would be more Si than Te / directive?

i guess if I really examine things, the only potential SJ trait that bothers me to the point of not wanting to be around an SJ is a strong directiveness (Te or Fe, to the exclusion of perceiving and taking in information). The more restricted, judged, and controlled I feel, the more I want to get away. I don't care if they have their opinions, that's fine; and I don't mind knowing what they are; I just don't feel comfortable being judged and dominated because I don't happen to hold the same values. I need to feel respected or at least considered, rather than just viewed as an obstacle to them doing things their way.

 

[Society]

I don't care if they have their opinions, that's fine; and I don't mind knowing what they are; I just don't feel comfortable being judged and dominated because I don't happen to hold the same values.

this is exactly it.

why is it that an orthodox ISFJ has to have a kosher-keeping family? what's wrong with just her not eating non-kosher food? it's not like i'm going to add bacon when i cook dinner to spite her... no more then i would give it to a vegan or someone whose allergic to pork, if that exists... there's obvious consideration. but the demand of fitting other people in the environment to one's self...

is this something that is common to other ISFJs? are there non-dogmatic ISFJs?
there's a lot of chemistry there, but in the same time, with this extreme of "live my highway or the highway", i'll take the highway...

 

[Totenkindly]

It depends on the ISFJ. not all are that way, some are very accepting and don't expect others to do what they do.

 

[INTP]

I find I do best with the ISTJs who are kind of flexy / relaxed... there's a subset of them who have some cultural interests (scifi, RPGs, musical groups, etc.) and aren't uptight about things. They tend to come off as a bit more geek/quirky in some ways, but are more adaptable and there are points of overlapping interest. I guess they would be more Si than Te / directive?

i guess if I really examine things, the only potential SJ trait that bothers me to the point of not wanting to be around an SJ is a strong directiveness (Te or Fe, to the exclusion of perceiving and taking in information). The more restricted, judged, and controlled I feel, the more I want to get away. I don't care if they have their opinions, that's fine; and I don't mind knowing what they are; I just don't feel comfortable being judged and dominated because I don't happen to hold the same values. I need to feel respected or at least considered, rather than just viewed as an obstacle to them doing things their way.

yea this ISTJ is relaxed and yea his interests are cultural, more specifically graffiti culture, so it wasnt like he was some stick in the ass vine taster snob type of person, but more like 'lets skip class and go bomb some trams'. he was quite heavy on Si, much more Si than Te, and Te was more like supporting the non intellectual Si(i mean like sciences, math or stuff like that). dunno really what hes like nowadays since i havent seen him in 2 years and only saw him once drunk/stoned in a bar then and didnt see him in like another two years before that.

 

[Istbkleta]

It is possible NTPs need structure, so we don't have to rely on our weak Si for that or on our weak Fe to help us feel comfortable in a group.

On the other hand STJs are notoriously bad at planning and executing "fun".
And their Ne is left aching and feeds them horror stories of an empty, unmemorable life.

NTPs provide "fun", "creativity", "brain storming" - all of which might seem as a chore.

I am unclear as to how it works with NFPs. Perhaps in an office setting ENFPs often revert to their tert Te, which is what STJs do all they and they are not amused (?). Perhaps NFPs' "flakiness" is too much for the uber responsible STJs (?).


Congrats on the observation What you describe seems pretty common

 

[strawberries]

maybe they make the NTs lunch because they want to sex them...hang on that can't be it - no one would want to sex an INTP.

 

[INTP]

no one would want to sex an INTP.

my experience tells that this isnt true. but the question is that do INTPs(or anyone else) want to have sex with such weirdos who want to have sex with INTPs

 

[RaptorWizard]

I don't have a problem with SJs, but I do have a problem with NJs!

 

[Istbkleta]

I don't have a problem with SJs, but I do have a problem with NJs!

Thank you for gracing us with information on your problems.

Very well, when in Rome ...
I have gas when I eat beans. I will try and prepare beans for the 1st time in my life. God have mercy on my roommate('s soul).

Am I doing it right? I feel like a Stargate explorer on these type fgorums. You know, with all these types ...



On the other hand, no SJs commenting. Why and what is the possible solution.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Thank you for gracing us with information on your problems.

On the other hand, no SJs commenting. Why and what is the possible solution.

SJs are fine because they have a good sense of humility and they serve and follow good morals whereas NJs tend to be very twisted, manipulative, and controlling.

 

[EJCC]

i guess if I really examine things, the only potential SJ trait that bothers me to the point of not wanting to be around an SJ is a strong directiveness (Te or Fe, to the exclusion of perceiving and taking in information). The more restricted, judged, and controlled I feel, the more I want to get away. I don't care if they have their opinions, that's fine; and I don't mind knowing what they are; I just don't feel comfortable being judged and dominated because I don't happen to hold the same values. I need to feel respected or at least considered, rather than just viewed as an obstacle to them doing things their way.

This, and what [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] said, ring true with me/SJs and NTPs -- as with me/SJs and anyone else. In a long-term relationship -- either close friendship or romantic relationship -- it is absolutely necessary for the SJ and their partner/BFF to share the same core (moral) values. (Interestingly, I've noticed that it's exactly the same with NFJs; I had a conversation with an ENFJ who was going to break up with her boyfriend because he thought ignorance was bliss and she thought knowledge was power!)

I guess this would mean that NTPs don't care as much about morals/values, in friendships? Which I find fascinating, and almost impossible to relate to.

Either way -- to answer the OP question with personal examples and to continue with the morals/values theme, if I mesh well with an NTP and we share interests, I can get along with them pretty well regardless of moral factors. I can seem judge-y initially, with the few things that I am unreasonably conservative about (e.g. the anti-pot-smoker bias that I'm still trying to shake), but that doesn't matter in (shallow) social situations; Ne banter is possible regardless.

And in work situations, it doesn't matter at all. [MENTION=4109]entropie[/MENTION]'s example, with the SJs laughing, fixing his inefficiencies and trying to mold him into their standards, rings sadly true as well -- and the only exceptions I can think of are examples of when an NTP has gotten really good at playing by the office rules, i.e. fitting him/herself into the mold (and presumably finding more subtle ways to maintain individuality).

Outside of work and outside of shallow friendships -- I get along extremely well with my INTP dad. We're both very well balanced (I have a lot of Ne, he has a lot of Fe), we're great at brainstorming together, and we're pretty much the best research team anywhere: Ti thoroughness + Te action.

Also, 99% the times we've fought have been when he was in a bad mood, and got angry at me for something tiny and pointless ("becoming preoccupied with details, without any logical basis"). In other words, we've essentially never fought because of an actual personality clash.

EDIT:

It is possible NTPs need structure, so we don't have to rely on our weak Si for that or on our weak Fe to help us feel comfortable in a group.

My INTP dad does very well with structure, because he does very poorly with idleness and boredom. And considering his line of work, avoiding boredom means gaining structured activities. But he seems to really like it; he gets a kick out of putting "his touch" onto things that might otherwise be cookie-cutter.

On the other hand STJs are notoriously bad at planning and executing "fun".
And their Ne is left aching and feeds them horror stories of an empty, unmemorable life.

... No. Not at all.

There's planned fun, and there's spontaneous fun. STJs may be bad at spontaneous fun (just like many other Js!), but if anything, we are notoriously GOOD at planned fun -- because planning and executing is what Te is best at! I, for example, am becoming pretty handy with logistics; in my mostly introvert friend group, I'm always the one planning and hosting the parties, delegating jobs (decorating/cooking/buying beverages) to other friends... etc.

And if STJs are any good at planned fun, then they know how to put their Ne into it! Examples: decorating and cooking (as mentioned before), craft projects, planning/preparing the perfect gift for a friend's birthday.

I am unclear as to how it works with NFPs. Perhaps in an office setting ENFPs often revert to their tert Te, which is what STJs do all they and they are not amused (?). Perhaps NFPs' "flakiness" is too much for the uber responsible STJs (?).

The latter. When NFPs have well-developed Te, they're much easier to work with, i.e. in a work setting, precisely because their Te has reduced their flakiness.

 

[UniqueMixture]

A lot of n types get bullied by sjs in highschool and never forgive them for it. Remember a lot of n types on this forum are fairly young and have yet to learn how to be one with the sjs : ) )

I had an estj girl I was seeing. She was absolutely brilliant, unfortunately she had extreme trust issues and was very control oriented