[MBTI General] NTP/SJ relations

[EJCC]

A lot of n types get bullied by sjs in highschool and never forgive them for it. Remember a lot of n types on this forum are fairly young and have yet to learn how to be one with the sjs : ) )

Yeah. This, or that they had a bad romantic experience with an SJ, once.

But honestly -- I've found that there's as much (or more!) anti-SJ hate from NTJs on the forum, as from NTPs, and for a different reason.
NTP reason: The SJs I've met have judged me and put me into little boxes that I didn't want to be in.
NTJ reason: All SJs are inferior to all other types! Here is my well-articulated worldview on the subject!! (when asked for evidence: I have VERY GOOD evidence behind this conclusion, but I can't remember it right now!)

Which means... NTPs, when they've had good relationships with SJs, will chill out about it and recognize that it's more complicated than "all SJs will judge me". (Thank you Ti!) HOWEVER, from my experience, the SJ-hating NTJs are less likely to get rid of that well-crafted Ni conceptual framework.

 

[Edgar]

I work with an ENTP who is especially fidgety and scatter-brained but very clever too, most days we work closely with two ISTJ women and one ISFJ woman amongst others. The ENTP is hyper active and comes up with vast amounts of ideas that mostly seem impractical to me. He very often just disappears from the unit where we work to go and socialize elsewhere. This is now starting to bother me a little because I often have to handle aspects of his work in his absence but the SJ women just love him and they jokingly make endless excuses for him. They laugh at his antics all day and they even bring in lunch to work for both him and an INTP man that works there... and these are highly professional women.

A lot of ENTP men tend to be charming sons of bitches, so I don't see how it is such a shock to witness SJ women delighting in their superficial company.

To an SJ, an ENTP might seem a whole lot a fun from a distance, but when they working on the same task, or are part of the same hierarchy, that's when the gears start to grind.

From what you are describing, SJ women are enjoying the ENTP's bafoonery while you are picking up his shit. I guarantee you that if they were the ones responsible for the clean up, there would a lot less laughter going on around.

And I'm guessing the INTP gets lunches because he looks scruffy and neglected so the SJ women feel kind of sorry for him and hook the poor bastard up.

 

[UniqueMixture]

I've actually noticed several intj esfj marriages but it seems mostly to be among older generations where religious beliefs were shared. I think religion can be a big barrier as well

 

[Istbkleta]

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

I am sorry, it was meant as a joke. I meant like "you can't plan life" in terms of "fun moments" => "memories" and then assuming that STJs would attempt to plan these inherently unplannable moments was the joke itself.

Of course this is my personal POV, which is very typical of an ExxP.

I hope this clears out what I meant.

Again, sorry for the poor choice of words that prompted you to waste your time to refute something that was never there. I know how good STJs are at planning fun.

From my POV fun is about letting the cards fall and planning fun is about planning for the cards to fall but you can never plan for what happens once they start falling and this is where the fun is. I can see how the TP approach might seem anarchistic from aside.

A lot of ENTP men tend to be charming sons of bitches, so I don't see how it is such a shock to witness SJ women delighting in their superficial company.

To an SJ, an ENTP might seem a whole lot a fun from a distance, but when they working on the same task, or are part of the same hierarchy, that's when the gears start to grind.

From what you are describing, SJ women are enjoying the ENTP's bafoonery while you are picking up his shit. I guarantee you that if they were the ones responsible for the clean up, there would a lot less laughter going on around.

And I'm guessing the INTP gets lunches because he looks scruffy and neglected so the SJ women feel kind of sorry for him and hook the poor bastard up.

This is seriously substandard argument. I am certain you spent less than five minutes thinking and researching. Probably wrote the first thing that came to mind. You are a sloppy perceiver after all, just like me

 

[Edgar]

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

This is seriously substandard argument. I am certain you spent less than five minutes thinking and researching. Probably wrote the first thing that came to mind. You are a sloppy perceiver after all, just like me

what are you going to do about it?

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

I am sorry, it was meant as a joke.

Ok, good! I'm glad it was meant as a joke. Sorry I didn't get it... :/

I meant like "you can't plan life" in terms of "fun moments" => "memories" and then assuming that STJs would attempt to plan these inherently unplannable moments was the joke itself.

Gotcha! That is pretty funny

Again, sorry for the poor choice of words that prompted you to waste your time to refute something that was never there. I know how good STJs are at planning fun.

Dammit it was 5 minutes of un-fun that I was planning on using on fun!!

*pulls out minute-by-minute planner to see where to re-schedule the fun*

From my POV fun is about letting the cards fall and planning fun is about planning for the cards to fall but you can never plan for what happens once they start falling and this is where the fun is. I can see how the TP approach might seem anarchistic from aside.

Well, maybe not anarchistic -- but chaotic, definitely. Although to be fair, I really enjoy that sort of thing, but not 24/7. Which is why I have such a blast with my ENFP friend

This is seriously substandard argument. I am certain you spent less than five minutes thinking and researching. Probably wrote the first thing that came to mind. You are a sloppy perceiver after all, just like me

You caught me

*grabs dunce cap and sits in the corner*

 

[Society]

I guess this would mean that NTPs don't care as much about morals/values, in friendships? Which I find fascinating, and almost impossible to relate to.

well, the Fi is a shadow function for us, and early on in an NTPs mind, there's no such thing as doing something wrong, only doing something stupid that fails in getting what you want. but as you mature, Ti-Fe and Fe-Si sort of lead a path towards little bright points in what is largely a very fuzzy moral structure in the form of concern for the perspective and thus the well being of those around you, showing you over time, derived value in things like the golden rule, fairness in how you treat people (or at least your emotional tribe), listening and welcoming contradicting perspectives to yours, etc...

but those do not quite stand on their own right, they are really a result of Ti striving towards an objective understanding and Fe striving to incorporate other perspectives and empathy to those perspectives into that objective understanding, and the negative result that causing harm to those you care for makes you feel like crap, which because of Ti>Fe, you pretty much always have to face wheter it validates your feelings or not. in that sense, those values are just tools to avoid feeling guilty.

and because you are used to trusting yourself (sometimes foolishly) to be able to improvise and handle whatever comes whether its practically or emotionally, and thus you don't tend to think in terms of setting boundaries (due to your P-ness), its not really important that others around you will feel guilty for the same things you would feel guilty about, so its not really important that others will share your values.

really, judging someone for their values only ever comes to play with me in cases of mutual commitments - in those really rare cases where i am acting and making chioces based on the assumption that they will fulfill their commitments towards me in return, and if i don't think their values or behaviors correspond with the commitment theyve made. in the same time, i don't like being judged for values i don't have if its enforced on me in anyway. this is why romance is pretty much the only time it would be important, and even then only if its serious.

 

[SilkRoad]

There's planned fun, and there's spontaneous fun. STJs may be bad at spontaneous fun (just like many other Js!), but if anything, we are notoriously GOOD at planned fun -- because planning and executing is what Te is best at! I, for example, am becoming pretty handy with logistics; in my mostly introvert friend group, I'm always the one planning and hosting the parties, delegating jobs (decorating/cooking/buying beverages) to other friends... etc.

And if STJs are any good at planned fun, then they know how to put their Ne into it! Examples: decorating and cooking (as mentioned before), craft projects, planning/preparing the perfect gift for a friend's birthday.

My experience with xSTJs suggests that they can definitely be fun. The fun experiences I've had with either ESTJs (thinking of a couple of guys I've had friendships with) or ISTJs (mainly thinking of my brother) have been "scheduled" to a certain extent but quite fun/random within that - which is kind of how I operate, too. (ie. I like to know what time and where I'm starting the evening, but I'm fairly flexible as to when/where I end up, and although I need to start the evening at a reasonable hour, I'm up for getting home in the middle of the night... )

The trends I have noticed, though, are that all three of the xSTJs I'm thinking of are workaholics, more or less. The ESTJs would kind of...rationalize it as "I'm cutting loose and having fun now, so that I can be refreshed to get back to my crazy schedule. I'm allowing myself more hedonism than usual" (one of them actually said that after we were on holiday!!). The other ESTJ went to Africa recently and while a lot of it was an expensive holiday, it turns out he was also there to a) do some volunteer work, b) help dispose of a killer crocodile (no joke! No wonder I find myself with a bit of a romantic inclination toward xSTJs ).

My ISTJ brother has a line of work (sports/travel/cultural journalism) which basically incorporates all the stuff he finds fun. So whenever I see him (not that often as we live in different countries) we end up doing really cool things like going whale watching for free, eating at interesting restaurants, visiting parks full of giant Communist statues...etc. (He's also taken trips all over the world where he goes ziplining and shooting off waterfalls in inflatable rafts and that sort of thing.) BUT...it's almost always something he's going to end up writing an article about. He seldom does anything totally non-work-related any more, even if it's definitely "fun". I would find that a bit mentally difficult because I definitely need to be off-duty from work regularly, and I want my holidays to just be holidays without a work element...


EDIT: Ah, just realized that the post which triggered this part of the discussion was a joke. Oh well.

 

[Redbone]

*pulls out minute-by-minute planner to see where to re-schedule the fun*

Come on, come on! Why isn't that re-scheduled fun here yet?

 

[Istbkleta]

You caught me

*grabs dunce cap and sits in the corner*

I met [MENTION=5398]Edgar[/MENTION] since he was obviously posting without thinking first.

Perhaps he is even under a lot of stress and in his shadow ENTP right now

 

[Ten]

From what you are describing, SJ women are enjoying the ENTP's bafoonery while you are picking up his shit. I guarantee you that if they were the ones responsible for the clean up, there would a lot less laughter going on around.

And I'm guessing the INTP gets lunches because he looks scruffy and neglected so the SJ women feel kind of sorry for him and hook the poor bastard up.

To be honest, I am not really that irritated by taking up some of the ENTPs duties, at least not yet anyway, he is generally not lazy. I like it when he goes away for a while, I find it hard to think clearly in his presence with all that bafoonery going on. The INTP does look scruffy and hungry, that is true lol, but they do seem rather happy (happier than I expected anyway) to kind of care for and mother him.

Outside of work and outside of shallow friendships -- I get along extremely well with my INTP dad. We're both very well balanced (I have a lot of Ne, he has a lot of Fe), we're great at brainstorming together, and we're pretty much the best research team anywhere: Ti thoroughness + Te action.

INTPs and ESTJs seems to make a great team in general I have noticed, especially in marriages and work situations. ESTJs moreso than just about any other type, just seem to naturally have what INTPs needs to develop well.

I don't have a problem with SJs, but I do have a problem with NJs!

I am not surprised. I have almost never seen NTPs and NJs relate well with each other in the long term. NTJs and NTPs often seem to eventually lose all respect for each other.