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[INTJ] Common INTJ Issues

OrangeAppled

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Because maybe there are gender differences as well as personality ones, something that is constantly put down to environmental conditioning? The former has actually got a fair amount of scientific backing, more than MBTI.

For example:
Gender Differences in Five Factor Model Personality Traits in an Elderly Cohort: Extension of Robust and Surprising Findings to an Older Generation
Sex Differences in the Brain: The Not So Inconvenient Truth

I think a common INTJ issue (especially with loopy ones) is "I am right you are wrong and that's it - you will find out why eventually!" type thinking. I am guilty occasionally, but am by no means the only one who is.

But what if this is because most women are SFJ and most men STJ?
Okay, we know type is not scientific, but let's suspend that for a moment & pretend it is. What if it's not women being more neurotic and agreeable, but feeling types? Since more women are feeling types than thinking types, then without that lens, it's just going to look like a male-female difference.

This seems relevant concerning we are talking about female INTJs & male INTJs. If those male-female differences (and not saying there are none, but referring to some of those you linked) are about most men or most women, then you have a problem applying it to type since most women are not INTJ women, and most men are not, say ESFJ. The standard for women is pretty much xSFJ & no surprise most women will reflect xSFJs in those studies. So are INTJ women adopting some of that because it's biological or because xSFJs define the standard for women & for xSFJs it is natural, and the rest of woman are expected to be the same. You cannot know this if you're just looking at general male-female differences.

And the idea that INTJ women are more socially adept is just random anecdotes from people. Dario Nardi, using EEG & "brain mapping", says that INFP males are more aware of & responsive to social cues than INFP females - why? Who knows. Maybe it's because INFP is less accepted for a male personality & they feel more need to be aware to adapt to male expectations. Perhaps INTJ females have the same reason for their higher awareness of social cues. This points to personality type & gender norms being the reason, or else INFP females would be them more adaptive ones.

In any case, there are many possibilities for such observations, which may not point to any pattern in themselves.
 

Coriolis

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But what if this is because most women are SFJ and most men STJ?
Okay, we know type is not scientific, but let's suspend that for a moment & pretend it is. What if it's not women being more neurotic and agreeable, but feeling types? Since more women are feeling types than thinking types, then without that lens, it's just going to look like a male-female difference.
I have seen this argument before and find it quite reasonable. Most of what are customarily viewed as (non-physical) gender differences are really T/F differences, which map loosely to gender since the majority of women are F, and the majority of men T. These majorities are hardly overwhelming, however (reported percentages are usually ~60-65%), leaving plenty of male Fs and female Ts.

Of course this begs the question of why more women are F and more men T. I wonder sometimes whether our species has simply bred for it, since T women may be less likely over time to have married/reproduced. I don't know whether this assumption is true, however, nor whether type preferences are inherited, so this is pure speculation.

The standard for women is pretty much xSFJ & no surprise most women will reflect xSFJs in those studies. So are INTJ women adopting some of that because it's biological or because xSFJs define the standard for women & for xSFJs it is natural, and the rest of woman are expected to be the same. You cannot know this if you're just looking at general male-female differences.
If the differences are really based on type rather than gender, then INTJ women will not be adopting similar behaviors due to biology. I also doubt INTJ women feel driven to follow social expectations to be SFJ-like. I suspect male NFs actually succumb more to pressure to be STJ-like.

And the idea that INTJ women are more socially adept is just random anecdotes from people. Dario Nardi, using EEG & "brain mapping", says that INFP males are more aware of & responsive to social cues than INFP females - why? Who knows. Maybe it's because INFP is less accepted for a male personality & they feel more need to be aware to adapt to male expectations. Perhaps INTJ females have the same reason for their higher awareness of social cues. This points to personality type & gender norms being the reason, or else INFP females would be them more adaptive ones.
Do INTJ females really have a higher awareness of social cues? Remember, though, that awareness does not guarantee compliance. Few of us know enough INTJ women to have anything other than anecdotal evidence. My anecdotes certainly do not support the notion that INTJ women are more socially adept.
 

ceecee

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Why do female INTJs learn these social skills better? I'm not asking about how it's done, nor really the obvious statement that there are plenty of social expectations of women not placed upon men...since the INTJ doesn't base decisions upon social factors at all, this must be an inner Te / Fi decision; INTJs tend to be totally able and wiling to ignore social expectations; why would female Te / Fi be more *drawn* to learn, or are they just better learners in this context?

Perhaps they are better learners. Or they might realize early that having these skills makes life a bit easier. I'm not sure if I am drawn to learn them specifically or if its more advantageous to know these expectations and how to work with them best. On the other hand, if I feel they are ridiculous expectations, I'm very willing to ignore them.
 

Rambling

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Perhaps they are better learners. Or they might realize early that having these skills makes life a bit easier. I'm not sure if I am drawn to learn them specifically or if its more advantageous to know these expectations and how to work with them best. On the other hand, if I feel they are ridiculous expectations, I'm very willing to ignore them.

The desire for connection is also quite strong...is that likely to be stronger in a female?
 

Coriolis

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The desire for connection is also quite strong...is that likely to be stronger in a female?
Depends on the female. For this one, it isn't.
 

ceecee

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The desire for connection is also quite strong...is that likely to be stronger in a female?

Generally, I think that is true but it's not true for me.
 

Olm the Water King

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Is it possible that some people who appear as INTJs are actually INFPs in disguise? On a website I can't locate right now, I read that INFPs often put on INTJ masks to function more effectively in society, or something like that.
 

uumlau

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Is it possible that some people who appear as INTJs are actually INFPs in disguise? On a website I can't locate right now, I read that INFPs often put on INTJ masks to function more effectively in society, or something like that.

INFPs, especially males, can often appear to be more INTP or INTJ. The real difference is that the INFP can end up responding even more harshly than an INTJ ever would, due to inferior Te. The character Harrison Ford plays in "Cowboys and Aliens" (the power-hungry rancher) feels like of like this sort of INFP: he seems to be thinking in terms of Te, but he's totally driven by emotion.

Not all NFPs come across as unicorns and rainbows. :)
 

Olm the Water King

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Hmm. Interesting. But perhaps that's not exactly what I had in mind. :)

I'll try to find the website...
 

Olm the Water King

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I guess it's cool. I'm not too impressed with some parts of it though.
 

uumlau

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It's certainly tongue-in-cheek. A lot of figuring out typology is gathering a lot of different perspectives and figuring out which pieces are almost always true for a type, which are common but not always present, and what kind of not-true-to-type stuff might be present that doesn't necessarily indicate that one isn't a particular type.
 

Mademoiselle

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I am a problem detector, my brain is good at solving.. of course I’d be critical.
but it’s a skill that I personally use to develop things. It’s a way I show I care.
But of course to be away from drama, I won’t express my thoughts for other people unless they ask me and it’s necessary..
You still think I’m complaining? I’d waist no time in being better if I can.​
 

melebula

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I often find that when I am pessimistic about how something will turn out, I will ignore the possibilities of it turning out well in the end, because I'm absolutely sure it will end up in failure. So, when others tell me not to worry because there's a chance something could go right, I don't budge at all. I block them out because I know, in my mind, it will be a failure.

However, there are times I've been wrong about an outcome, which is always pleasantly surprising. All in all, I'm still largely a pessimist.

I'm also overly analytical. If I detect a problem in my life, I won't rest until I can solve it. I will analyze it until I'm chasing my own tail. I often feel the need to "switch off my brain", which only results in unsuccessful attempts, because even unconsciously, I'm analyzing it. I can practically feel my brain working out of my control.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Just out of curiosity, would you INTJs say you agree with this? (from this page):

...the INTP has a definite thirst for universal, underlying knowledge. Unlike the INTJ who seeks to understand their environment in order to get a foothold on it, the INTP seeks to understand the principles behind the environment in order to get a foothold on their understanding of it. The INTJ seeks knowledge as a means to an end, being whatever goal they’ve decided they need to accomplish in the outside world, while the INTP seeks knowledge for its own sake, so that they can better understand the theoretical principles running the universe. In this way the INTJ is more materialistic while the INTP is more metaphysical. The INTJ wants to grasp an idea in their hands and use it as a tool, to substantiate it or manifest it in reality, while the INTP doesn’t care as much if this happens, seeing as reality is a world of appearances, and they are interested in the underlying truths behind it. INTPs search for dispassionate knowledge, separate from emotional baggage or unessential appearances. This is why the INTP is perceived as very ponderous, because they often are. They prefer the thinking over the actual doing, and they may even struggle with sticking with a project long enough for it to fully mature in reality, due to the thirst of their Ne for more and more possibilities over complete ones.​
 

uumlau

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Just out of curiosity, would you INTJs say you agree with this? (from this page):

...the INTP has a definite thirst for universal, underlying knowledge. Unlike the INTJ who seeks to understand their environment in order to get a foothold on it, the INTP seeks to understand the principles behind the environment in order to get a foothold on their understanding of it. The INTJ seeks knowledge as a means to an end, being whatever goal they’ve decided they need to accomplish in the outside world, while the INTP seeks knowledge for its own sake, so that they can better understand the theoretical principles running the universe. In this way the INTJ is more materialistic while the INTP is more metaphysical. The INTJ wants to grasp an idea in their hands and use it as a tool, to substantiate it or manifest it in reality, while the INTP doesn’t care as much if this happens, seeing as reality is a world of appearances, and they are interested in the underlying truths behind it. INTPs search for dispassionate knowledge, separate from emotional baggage or unessential appearances. This is why the INTP is perceived as very ponderous, because they often are. They prefer the thinking over the actual doing, and they may even struggle with sticking with a project long enough for it to fully mature in reality, due to the thirst of their Ne for more and more possibilities over complete ones.​

In principle, there isn't anything "incorrect", here. There are implications that are untrue, however, if taken too far. It is true, for example, that the INTP extroverts ideation (Ne), and the INTJ extroverts accomplishment (Te). And if you're trying to type someone, it's a useful distinction to make.

ALL of the INxx types, however, whether judging or perceiving or thinking or feeling are characteristically thoughtful people who love knowledge and generally seek to expand their understanding of everything. They all tend to live inside their heads, and think about things not just because it's fun, but because they practically cannot help but do so. INFPs and INTPs, as Ne aux, tend to ponder things in terms of universal principles. INTJ and INFJ, Ni doms, tend to ponder things in terms of underlying meanings and connections, which, while more limited and context-based, explain far more of reality than such limited observations would seem possible to explain. Because the "Ni principles" are context based, they tend to be more readily applicable in practical ways, whether in terms of understanding and relating to people (INFJ) or seeing practical applications that can improve quality of life (INTJ).

The INTP has no exclusive interest in "knowledge for its own sake", so much as a disinterest in specific application and an interest in "objective universal truth".
 

BadOctopus

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I wonder if insomnia is a common problem among INTJs. I suffer from insomnia often, and it's because I can't turn my brain off when I'm trying to sleep. It just goes a mile a minute, replaying the events and conversations of the day, pondering what might happen the next day, or sometimes even just random song lyrics or quotes from movies. It's ridiculous. I wish I could tell my brain to shut up.
 

SD45T-2

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I wonder if insomnia is a common problem among INTJs. I suffer from insomnia often, and it's because I can't turn my brain off when I'm trying to sleep. It just goes a mile a minute, replaying the events and conversations of the day, pondering what might happen the next day, or sometimes even just random song lyrics or quotes from movies. It's ridiculous. I wish I could tell my brain to shut up.
I'm pretty much the same way and I used to just assume everyone was like that. But apparently there are people who conk out when their head hits the pillow. I can't comprehend that. :shock:
 
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