[MBTI General] Does never really mean Never?

[citizen cane]

 

[SilkRoad]

The world would be an even sadder place if we were chained to everything we once thought or said.

What a glorious friendship it must be to be involved with those who keep meticulous track of all that is said and done so that it can be used as a weapon and evidence of guilt.

Speaking for myself, I don't think I have a habit of holding things against others (I have certainly not been told so - although I know it can be a problem for me.) I don't think it's a problem if it's just a question of semantics (someone being more visibly dramatic than I am, or whatever) or new information causing people to rethink things.

But I do find it to be a problem if someone consistently (like, many many times over months or years) says one thing and does another - particularly when they look at you like when you timidly say "oh, so you decided to change your plans?", and they tell you or imply that they never even said such a thing.

It's mainly a problem if people say whatever comes into their heads where it involves commitments or obligations to others. It's quite possible for someone to make plans based on someone else's word and then be severely let down. ie. They tell you they're definitely joining you for that long-discussed trip later in the year, they've ensured they have enough money for it, and it is happening for sure - they are just about to book their plane ticket so you can go ahead and book yours. Then, just after you book your ticket, they say "oh actually - I decided instead to go on holiday with my other friend. Sorry." (I haven't personally experienced this, but some of my similarly uptight friends certainly have! Which is another reason why I tend to make travel plans with those who have a similar approach...)

I don't see it particularly as a matter of sitting in judgment on people who operate their lives somewhat differently from yours. (I would like to be more spontaneous...) But I think people should give some thought to how their actions and words affect others.

 

[Ness]

: Ah [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION] I hear ya. This is my gripe with thease people that use big absolute words and then fail to follow through on their meaning . . just don't say it in the first place, because I'm going to take it that you mean it, and then feel let down.

 

[garbage]

(I haven't personally experienced this, but some of my similarly uptight friends certainly have! Which is another reason why I tend to make travel plans with those who have a similar approach...)

I don't see it particularly as a matter of sitting in judgment on people who operate their lives somewhat differently from yours. (I would like to be more spontaneous...) But I think people should give some thought to how their actions and words affect others.

Oh, yeah. I get around all of that by not making plans with people who aren't reliable enough to commit, too. I figure it's a function of our interaction--I could either bend over backwards for them, expect them to do the same for me, or leave them alone. One of these options is less stressful than the other two.

When I do make plans with people like this, I wind up feeling as though I have to 'mother' them ("Have you bought your ticket? Do you have it in your calendar? Do you check your calendar?") to get them to follow through. I don't particularly trust them otherwise.

It helps to be a bit adaptable (I regularly get calls about meetings, plans, and fun stuff that occur within the hour; some I can make and some I can't), but commitments by their nature should be hard to break. Otherwise, what is a commitment?


I've been on the other side of this, too. I asked some friends for some help unloading my girlfriend's moving truck, but the weather looked spotty and so I canceled and opted to take care of it the next day. Most were understanding, but one of my friends was irate about the whole thing and thought that I was flaky and that he had wasted his time; we wound up not talking for a full year. I thought that "the weather is about to turn to absolute shit" was a good reason to break the commitment.

In any case, there are folks out there with higher standards than me.

 

[SilkRoad]

Btw, I should say I don't think this is something that P types do exclusively, or anything like that.

I think any type can say things they don't particularly mean (or which they won't mean a short time later), be flaky, etc etc. I think it is perhaps somewhat more likely with P types (and I do understand that ExxP and perhaps especially ExFP are more likely to think aloud and perhaps be dramatic.) But I think it has a lot to do with what the people around you when you're growing up are like, too.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Speaking for myself, I don't think I have a habit of holding things against others (I have certainly not been told so - although I know it can be a problem for me.) I don't think it's a problem if it's just a question of semantics (someone being more visibly dramatic than I am, or whatever) or new information causing people to rethink things.

But I do find it to be a problem if someone consistently (like, many many times over months or years) says one thing and does another - particularly when they look at you like when you timidly say "oh, so you decided to change your plans?", and they tell you or imply that they never even said such a thing.

It's mainly a problem if people say whatever comes into their heads where it involves commitments or obligations to others. It's quite possible for someone to make plans based on someone else's word and then be severely let down. ie. They tell you they're definitely joining you for that long-discussed trip later in the year, they've ensured they have enough money for it, and it is happening for sure - they are just about to book their plane ticket so you can go ahead and book yours. Then, just after you book your ticket, they say "oh actually - I decided instead to go on holiday with my other friend. Sorry." (I haven't personally experienced this, but some of my similarly uptight friends certainly have! Which is another reason why I tend to make travel plans with those who have a similar approach...)

I don't see it particularly as a matter of sitting in judgment on people who operate their lives somewhat differently from yours. (I would like to be more spontaneous...) But I think people should give some thought to how their actions and words affect others.

Well, let's use your example as a way for me to explain:

In my experience with (at least some) P types, they throw around words like "never" more freely than I would...but it doesn't really mean "never"; in fact, it can often end up meaning "in a few weeks or months."

I have major issues with people saying things they don't mean (if they do it a lot) so this is something that gets to me. I've certainly noticed xxFP types and especially ExFP saying it. I think they just tend to think aloud lot more and be more emotionally impetuous. But it makes me very unwilling to trust what they say...I end up kind of tuning out, and just trying to observe their actions. I have a friend who's gotten involved in some very unwise relationships. Tragically, one of the guys she was involved with ended up dying. She was like "I will never love again" (although they were actually broken up at that point and she was kind of moving on and was telling him he should too.) Now, this was obviously an extremely tragic and unbalancing situation...so I kind of get it. But literally, a few MONTHS later she got MARRIED to someone else who she didn't know that well - "he's the man I want to spend the rest of my life with." I just find that scary! I kind of gently raised that whole issue (probably insensitive of me, but I just had to) and she was like "so because E died, I'm supposed to go around with a knife in my heart forever?!" There wasn't much I could say to that, but part of me wanted to say "well, that's exactly what you told us all you were going to do, so.............."

From my perspective, if you say "I will never do this" or "I will always do that", and then (even a short time later) you do something completely different - there are at least two problems with this. 1) Other people may have been relying on what you said and took it a lot more seriously than you did (especially if you sounded very definitive about it, even when questioned.) 2) You make yourself look like an idiot. Which personally I care about at least a little bit, when it has something to do with my word. I realise that life is not fixed in stone, people change their minds, etc. But don't say "never" unless you at least kind of mean it!

I would just very seldom say something like "never" or "always" aloud. Sometimes I may be thinking it, but I'm aware that potentially it could change. If I were to vocalize it I would feel extremely, almost unshakeably sure. And I am seldom THAT sure (knowing the uncertain nature of life) so I just won't say it, usually.

Probably a xxTP type and especially INTP would be less likely to say it, being both more reserved, and wanting to keep options open. I guess?

Particularly with xxFP types, I doubt this is a communication gap which will ever be bridged between them and me. I am always going to think they are flaky and unreliable and say everything that comes into their head, and they are going to think I'm cold and calculating and rigid and judgmental. Probably neither of those are really true, but I don't know if there's a way around it.


EDIT: Sorry, I realised this was mainly an xNTP question. Haha. It's just a question I find interesting.

@bold area.

Whether you agreed with her response or not, this was a serious emotional moment for your friend. At that moment when she spoke, she was most likely articulating a Fi thought process to you and in that moment honestly felt so sad that is seemed like she would never love again. Then later she changed her mind. Perhaps she changed her mind because of this event and realized that life is too short and she should find whatever happiness she can. Why she did this doesn't really matter because it's her life to live. You don't have to agree with what she did, but if you want to be her friend then respect that she can make her own choices. If it's too much for you, then don't be her friend.

What is most amusing is the simple fact that J's wouldn't get their way quite so often if there weren't P's around to flex for them. So you may not like the fact that P's will change their mind because of new information, but you should appreciate what we do for you instead of deciding that it's just flakiness. It's like when a P bends for your will it's ok, but if they bend for something you don't like, then they must be flaky. Can't have it both ways.

When my mom died I felt like I would never be happy again. I expressed this because that was how bad I was feeling at the time. By the logic in this thread, I should be actively killing any moment where I do feel happiness because if I don't... then I am a flake.

 

[SilkRoad]

Whether you agreed with her response or not, this was a serious emotional moment for your friend. At that moment when she spoke, she was most likely articulating a Fi thought process to you and in that moment honestly felt so sad that is seemed like she would never love again. Then later she changed her mind. Perhaps she changed her mind because of this event and realized that life is too short and she should find whatever happiness she can. Why she did this doesn't really matter because it's her life to live. You don't have to agree with what she did, but if you want to be her friend then respect that she can make her own choices. If it's too much for you, then don't be her friend.

What is most amusing is the simple fact that J's wouldn't get their way quite so often if there weren't P's around to flex for them. So you may not like the fact that P's will change their mind because of new information, but you should appreciate what we do for you instead of deciding that it's just flakiness. It's like when a P bends for your will it's ok, but if they bend for something you don't like, then they must be flaky. Can't have it both ways.

When my mom died I felt like I would never be happy again. I expressed this because that was how bad I was feeling at the time. By the logic in this thread, I should be actively killing any moment where I do feel happiness because if I don't... then I am a flake.

I admit that there was probably no point in me saying anything at that moment and it may have been hurtful. The marriage was already a done deal (and had been for a few months) by the time we had a chance to talk about it properly. Part of the worry there was that she has impetuously gotten involved in some very unwise relationships which in one way or another have caused her a huge amount of heartache and made things very difficult - which is also what this marriage is doing, by now. She also said something to the effect of "my new husband is just like E [the guy who died], but better!" Which really alarmed me because it seemed all the more likely that it was a rebound decision out of a very sad, hard emotional place. If she had been more open with her friends about the decision to marry, before she took it, more of them (not just including me, I know) would have tried to tell her to slow down and think about it more.

I agree that it's her life to live. In this particular situation though it's hard to see someone repeatedly making decisions that have severely damaged them. She literally cried on my shoulder the day the previous guy died (I blew off work to go be with her.) And she cried on my shoulder many times subsequently. And this new decision started up another cycle of massive drama (and the drama involved with the latest marriage has been massive) for everyone who cares about her. Which kind of sucks both for her, and her family/friends. It has certainly not made her happy and has made her life very difficult. I think for many reasons she has a hard time finding happiness but this really has not helped.

I don't think I come across as inflexible. Maybe on this forum I do. IRL I routinely get told that I am [too] easy-going and flex [too much] for others, and that I need to look after my own rights and my own boundaries and decisions more than those of others. I think I do the flexing/easy-going thing for a long time but eventually there is a brick wall. And people are shocked because up till then they think I'll put up with anything and accept any decisions that others make and go along with whatever they say. You really can't win.

Anyway, I understand this may be a sensitive area for you so I'm sorry if I've made you feel bad in some way.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I admit that there was probably no point in me saying anything at that moment and it may have been hurtful. The marriage was already a done deal (and had been for a few months) by the time we had a chance to talk about it properly. Part of the worry there was that she has impetuously gotten involved in some very unwise relationships which in one way or another have caused her a huge amount of heartache and made things very difficult - which is also what this marriage is doing, by now. She also said something to the effect of "my new husband is just like E [the guy who died], but better!" Which really alarmed me because it seemed all the more likely that it was a rebound decision out of a very sad, hard emotional place.

I agree that it's her life to live. In this particular situation though it's hard to see someone repeatedly making decisions that have severely damaged them. And it starts up another cycle of massive drama (and the drama involved with the latest marriage has been massive) for everyone who cares about her. Which kind of sucks both for her, and her family/friends.

I don't think I come across as inflexible. Maybe on this board I do. IRL I get told that I am [too] easy-going and flex [too much] for others. I think I do that for a long time but eventually there is a brick wall. And people are shocked because up till then they think I'll put up with anything and accept any decisions that others make. You really can't win.

Anyway, I understand this may be a sensitive area for you so I'm sorry if I've made you feel bad in some way.

It's not that this is a particularly sensitive area for me, because it isn't. It's more of a, I don't understand the NFP bashing that started in this thread on NTP's and how flaky we must be because we change our minds. Just as P's need to learn some focus and responsibility, J's need to learn that the world will not end if everything isn't perfect.

I like closure too but the world is not built on that always happening. In which case I create my own closure with people. I also don't think that P's (you can see most of the P's responding here have said similar things) throw around words like "never" and "always" very often. Those are words to box one in, and we don't roll that way. More often than not if we say something like that it's because we've been pushed to say it. Whether it's by a highly charged emotional moment or something else. Either way, I think it is a virtue of the P type to be able to change their mind, admit they were wrong, or are just plain willing to grow and adapt to a changing life in a changing world.

and @ your friend story again... now the story changes because she was already engaged when he died. The original time telling made it out that this guy died and she immediately flounced over to someone new.

 

[SilkRoad]

It's not that this is a particularly sensitive area for me, because it isn't. It's more of a, I don't understand the NFP bashing that started in this thread on NTP's and how flaky we must be because we change our minds. Just as P's need to learn some focus and responsibility, J's need to learn that the world will not end if everything isn't perfect.

I like closure too but the world is not built on that always happening. In which case I create my own closure with people. I also don't think that P's (you can see most of the P's responding here have said similar things) throw around words like "never" and "always" very often. Those are words to box one in, and we don't roll that way. More often than not if we say something like that it's because we've been pushed to say it. Whether it's by a highly charged emotional moment or something else. Either way, I think it is a virtue of the P type to be able to change their mind, admit they were wrong, or are just plain willing to grow and adapt to a changing life in a changing world.

and @ your friend story again... now the story changes because she was already engaged when he died. The original time telling made it out that this guy died and she immediately flounced over to someone new.

Well, re the story...she'd been engaged to E, the guy who died. They'd broken it off for various reasons but there were still feelings. He died in an accident (he'd also tried to commit suicide when she broke up with him). She sort of went back to "he's the love of my life and I will stay faithful to his memory forever"...which honestly, in that kind of emotionally charged situation I can well understand. But unfortunately she did kind of flounce over to someone new. She'd met the new guy for about a week, a month before E died, though they were supposed to be just friends. They were in touch by Skype a lot immediately after, then saw each other for another ten days or so a few months later, then a couple of months after that she went out to his country and married him. (She wasn't open with any of her friends about this so although I had a feeling something was up, the official story was that she was just friends with the new guy.) So she was not "involved" with him at all before E died, in fact she barely knew him. So I heard the "just like E, but better!" stuff after she'd married the new guy and E was several months dead. It just seemed very worrying and unhealthy as well as massively impetuous. I would have felt more understanding and less freaked out/possibly judgmental if a year or two later she'd met someone new. It was the sort of instant rebound thing. I can understand the "never be happy again" reaction in the face of intense tragedy and grief. But moving on so quickly, I don't know. It freaked me out in so many ways.

And yeah. I hear what you say, the intent of the thread has changed a bit. I am speaking partly out of a bit of unfortunate personal experience with an xNFP or three being massively emotionally impetuous, and saying things like "never" quite a lot. I realise it's not necessarily an overall trend. Like I said, I think any type can be flaky (being flexible is good, but routinely letting others down or "crying wolf" is flaky, from my perspective.)

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, re the story...she'd been engaged to E, the guy who died. They'd broken it off for various reasons but there were still feelings. He died in an accident (he'd also tried to commit suicide when she broke up with him). She sort of went back to "he's the love of my life and I will stay faithful to his memory forever"...which honestly, in that kind of emotionally charged situation I can well understand. But unfortunately she did kind of flounce over to someone new. She'd met the new guy for about a week, a month before E died, though they were supposed to be just friends. They were in touch by Skype a lot immediately after, then saw each other for another ten days or so a few months later, then a couple of months after that she went out to his country and married him. (She wasn't open with any of her friends about this so although I had a feeling something was up, the official story was that she was just friends with the new guy.) So she was not "involved" with him at all before E died, in fact she barely knew him. So I heard the "just like E, but better!" stuff after she'd married the new guy and E was several months dead. It just seemed very worrying and unhealthy as well as massively impetuous. I would have felt more understanding and less freaked out/possibly judgmental if a year or two later she'd met someone new. It was the sort of instant rebound thing. I can understand the "never be happy again" reaction in the face of intense tragedy and grief. But moving on so quickly, I don't know. It freaked me out in so many ways.

it does sound like a rebound to me. I mean, it's understandable that she was devastated and connected with this guy in that time when she had a big void in her life... but marrying him and doing it in secrecy suggests she knew it was questionable and that perhaps she was just trying to use him as a substitute for her dead fiance but just didn't want to deal with any kind of challenges to her decision at the time. I hope things worked out for her.

 

[Totenkindly]

The world would be an even sadder place if we were chained to everything we once thought or said.

What a glorious friendship it must be to be involved with those who keep meticulous track of all that is said and done so that it can be used as a weapon and evidence of guilt.

You know, you said the EXACT same thing on January 23, 2011, at 3:41pm EST, but just using 32 words instead of 36. (don't blame me. It's your fault.)

 

[Society]

it depends who i am talking too.

if its someone i feel a certain level of intimacy with - the capacity to share my raw thoughts and emotions with as i go along - i am more likely say 'never' based on what i feel at the time, because i trust that they understand where its coming from - its not a decision, its an expression of fear, i am afraid of letting myself do something - i am afraid of talking to her right now, i am afraid of putting myself out there right now, i am afraid of what might happen if i get drunk out of my senses because of what happened last time, i am afraid of letting myself fall inlove with someone right now... but fears are something that i usually overcome.

and like [MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] said - something might not make sense to me at a given time, but will at a future point. i can say "there's so much dirt on me to be dug up that i don't see myself ever getting into politics", but then someone with more dirt then me out in the open gets elected, and the world has changed, so why wouldn't my conclusion?

and i think that's the key here - [MENTION=15107]Ness[/MENTION] - as a P type, my choices aren't decisions, they are conclusions about what is the best course of action based on the information i have and what i can come up with at the time (which is also dependent on my emotional state). i'm not telling you i have decided to never do it, i am concluding that i don't think i will, but the reality on which my conclusion is based on can change at any given moment, and my conclusion will change with that. if the reason i made my choice changes, so will my choice.

 

[Anew Leaf]

You know, you said the EXACT same thing on January 23, 2011, at 3:41pm EST, but just using 32 words instead of 36.

Sigh. I KNEW you were keeping track!! I KNEW it!!



The older I get, the less pithy I get as well. ~3 months and I added 4 words. In 3 years I will be writing page after page of text like an INTP.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Well, re the story...she'd been engaged to E, the guy who died. They'd broken it off for various reasons but there were still feelings. He died in an accident (he'd also tried to commit suicide when she broke up with him). She sort of went back to "he's the love of my life and I will stay faithful to his memory forever"...which honestly, in that kind of emotionally charged situation I can well understand. But unfortunately she did kind of flounce over to someone new. She'd met the new guy for about a week, a month before E died, though they were supposed to be just friends. They were in touch by Skype a lot immediately after, then saw each other for another ten days or so a few months later, then a couple of months after that she went out to his country and married him. (She wasn't open with any of her friends about this so although I had a feeling something was up, the official story was that she was just friends with the new guy.) So she was not "involved" with him at all before E died, in fact she barely knew him. So I heard the "just like E, but better!" stuff after she'd married the new guy and E was several months dead. It just seemed very worrying and unhealthy as well as massively impetuous. I would have felt more understanding and less freaked out/possibly judgmental if a year or two later she'd met someone new. It was the sort of instant rebound thing. I can understand the "never be happy again" reaction in the face of intense tragedy and grief. But moving on so quickly, I don't know. It freaked me out in so many ways.

And yeah. I hear what you say, the intent of the thread has changed a bit. I am speaking partly out of a bit of unfortunate personal experience with an xNFP or three being massively emotionally impetuous, and saying things like "never" quite a lot. I realise it's not necessarily an overall trend. Like I said, I think any type can be flaky (being flexible is good, but routinely letting others down or "crying wolf" is flaky, from my perspective.)

As we are all to realize that this is not necessarily an overall trend either.

 

[NotOfTwo]

In response to the OP, I rarely say never, or always, for that matter. I don't feel think they are generally realistic to use in terms of human behavior, whether my own or others'.
I have long since stopped taking my friends' "never" seriously or personally. There are exceptions but so seldom.
For myself, it is just very difficult not to leave room for new information, circumstances, and the possibility of mistake.

 

[NPcomplete]

In response to the OP, I rarely say never, or always, for that matter. I don't feel think they are generally realistic to use in terms of human behavior, whether my own or others'.
I have long since stopped taking my friends' "never" seriously or personally. There are exceptions but so seldom.
For myself, it is just very difficult not to leave room for new information, circumstances, and the possibility of mistake.

I relate to this a lot.

Things, generally, aren't definite in my books and as such, I try to avoid the use of "never", "always" and other terms of a similar nature when unsure. I usually don't expect the same behaviour from others though (haha) so I don't consider their use of the terms as particularly "binding". That said, it's nice when they stick to their words but if they don't, they probably have a reason behind that decision.

It's all a learning process in the end.

 

[garbage]

Ah, yeah. Our emotions tend to trigger us to extremes (out of defense, etc.), and out of those tend to come extreme words such as "never" or "always." In reality, we can't expect one another to avoid devastating situations that in turn trigger those emotions, and we can't expect complete emotional control, and so we've gotta have a reasonable amount of leeway for one another.

I don't expect someone in a crisis situation to be held to their 'end conclusions.' But I do sort of prefer people to avoid delving into extremes all the time--it points to a lack of emotional control/understanding. Then again, after a while, I try to draw patterns and tease out what exactly a person means by extreme words--whether or not they actually 'mean' them, or what exactly they mean by them, and take them with a grain of salt or take them at their word.

People communicate in different ways, and I can't reasonably expect them to communicate in my way. So...

IRL I routinely get told that I am [too] easy-going and flex [too much] for others, and that I need to look after my own rights and my own boundaries and decisions more than those of others. I think I do the flexing/easy-going thing for a long time but eventually there is a brick wall. And people are shocked because up till then they think I'll put up with anything and accept any decisions that others make and go along with whatever they say. You really can't win.

... like [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION], I feel like I tend to be the one to flex to others or to reach out to them in communication, despite having my own preferences for how to communicate. After all, if we're not on the same page, then neither of our ideas can be communicated properly; since that's a priority for me, well, I flex.

I think that the way to solve the whole "I give and give and give and then suddenly put up a brick wall and that surprises people" thing is to either gradually ease others into your expectations or set them upfront in a "take it or leave it" sort of way. I prefer the former approach myself; others prefer the latter as it doesn't 'waste time.'

 

[Rasofy]

I believe there are gender differences in this case.
When a woman says ''no'' she means ''maybe''.
When a woman says ''maybe'' she means ''yes''.
And brotha, if a woman ever reply ''yes'', you'd better run because something is wrong. :horor:

 

[SilkRoad]

As we are all to realize that this is not necessarily an overall trend either.

ok, thanks...got it.

 

[SilkRoad]

it does sound like a rebound to me. I mean, it's understandable that she was devastated and connected with this guy in that time when she had a big void in her life... but marrying him and doing it in secrecy suggests she knew it was questionable and that perhaps she was just trying to use him as a substitute for her dead fiance but just didn't want to deal with any kind of challenges to her decision at the time. I hope things worked out for her.

Well, hard to say at this point. It's been over a year and they're still married, but he can't as yet get a visa to live over here (very complicated), she got pregnant with twins on a visit to see him, she was already in lousy financial straits (and supporting him over there) and not great health and...yeah.

It's pretty terrifying for anyone who is even friends with her, so I admire her for keeping it together so far, as it is hard to imagine what it is like for HER. I would be beyond overwhelmed - which I think she is actually but putting up a brave front.