[INTP] Being an INTP has become a LIVING HELL. HELP.

[sriv]

Feelers tend to.

Not completely.

I love these arguments we get into.

Hands off.

 

[Nadir]

What cause? Give em the old blunt knife remark here and there. Life can be really exciting!

Sure. Here are a few. You've come to this thread and posted something of little relevance to the original post, and then proceeded to "defend" your post with one-liners, against people who are more interested in your motivations in doing so rather than your opinions themselves. That in itself wouldn't be a problem, but I've seen you do this to a few more threads. You seem to be looking to garner some attention and have your posts be considered as significant. Or not. However, my opinion is that you're sort of failing either way, because I sense nothing behind what's posted -- they taste like empty words from here. IMO, your probably real-life friend Haphazard has much better ideas regarding getting thoughts or opinions across.

Cheers, and good night!

 

[heart]

I love these arguments we get into.

I find your choice of terms a bit bombastic. I would say we were discussing, not arguing.

 

[sriv]

Sure. Here are a few. You've come to this thread and posted something of little relevance to the original post, and then proceeded to "defend" your post with one-liners, against people who are more interested in your motivations in doing so rather than your opinions themselves. That in itself wouldn't be a problem, but I've seen you do this to a few more threads. You seem to be looking to garner some attention and have your posts be considered as significant. Or not. However, my opinion is that you're sort of failing either way, because I sense nothing behind what's posted -- they taste like empty words from here. IMO, your probably real-life friend Haphazard has much better ideas regarding getting thoughts or opinions across.

Cheers, and good night!

No, not really. LOL, I seem to be succeeding in being annoying.

Good point. I like discussing better.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

I realized that my theories were failing. Moreover, I realized that I couldn't understand where she, or anyone else was coming from, how they felt. What her experience was. In trying to understand her goodness, I was undermining it by objectifying her.

I want to "feel people out" now. I want to empathize...but I don't think I can. I can't help but fit them in some sort of framework, and it makes me feel ashamed that I have become that alienated from humanity. I feel trapped in all of my theories and wonder if its too late.

I wonder what my pursuit of the "truth" has made me? Less or more human? What have I become? The truth has led me to a truth that defies its own persuit....

Any help from any personality, is greatful...

In order to really empathize, you need to drop all your theories and worrying and just do your best to be sincere and listen. That's really it. The theories can come later, but for now, you just need to do your best and not make a big deal out of fucking up or not being perfect, or what happens if you mess up. It's fine to feel ashamed, as it's fine to be whoever it is that makes you feel ashamed. But do your best to suspend all those thoughts while you listen to someone. There's no great trick; it's just practice and sincerity.

 

[Athenian200]

I doubt I'm the right person to help you, but here's my two cents.

You might be best off seeking to deal with people who are interested in the same things you are (and hence probably think in similar ways to you), because their emotions will be most similar to yours, and you will feel the most natural empathy for them.

She may or may not be a good person, but that doesn't mean you should feel guilty for not understanding where she's coming from. She's different, her mind just doesn't go to the same places. She doesn't need to understand something in order to value it. So she probably doesn't understand where you're coming from either, if that makes you feel better.

What I don't understand is why you feel a need to participate in humanity as a whole, including the ones you can't relate to all, and not just be among friends. I would think most people seek out friends they can relate to, not people who work differently and make them uncomfortable.

Also, you might be confusing goodness with truth. A person without truth can be good (which I think might be what you witnessed), and a person without goodness can know truths. They are not the same thing.

Her goodness may not be something that would help you. She may not consciously understand why she is good, and thus would not be able to explain it to you. This means that you would not understand it, and if you cannot understand it, you cannot learn it from her. What is the value of understanding where they are coming from (on an emotional level) if it cannot teach you anything? And there lies the answer to your question... intellectually, none. However, your humanity is here. You have a desire for empathy/connection that is causing you to want this connection regardless of its intellectual uselessness. You recognize goodness, and you wish to feel a connection to it. Just as many wish to see/touch a famous person, believing they are good. It does them no good if they do so, of course, but they still wish it. So what you feel is... quite human. Whether that's a good thing, of course, is something I'd reserve judgment on. Human feelings aren't always good ones. Or useful ones. So we have three concepts here... human, good, and useful. I ask you, which is your ideal?

One idea to comfort you if you doubt that you are human enough... if you see a person in pain, crying, and you look at their face, does this cause any emotional pain to arise in you, or do you just feel nothing? If it's the former, you're definitely as human as anyone else, and have nothing to be ashamed of.

Finally, I think you need to ask this person questions about how they feel, even ask them to speculate on where their feelings come from. That's really the only way to come close to knowing (rather than speculating about) how someone feels, and I think most people like to have another person take interest in their feelings. I don't think questions will spoil anything as much as you think. Isn't speculating about them like they weren't even there to ask even more objectifying than asking them openly?

 

[Kiddo]

I don't think I have any good advice to give since I seem to be going through a transitional phase in my personality. Some things I have learned through my transition is it is dangerous to make assumptions or try to categorize people and it is wise to embrace differences and contradictions because there is at least a little truth in everything. I don't know if that helps, but those are some of my recent thoughts.

 

[Totenkindly]

Other people have said good stuff. I'm exhausted, so maybe I will respond more later.

But I have stood years ago where you stand now. You are about to enter a new stage of your life, where you will start seeing the world differently ... not just how some other people see it (people who you might have previously dismissed) but also placing your own INTP mindset into a different context.

Do be open, don't be afraid, and jump in. It might be exhilarating at times, scary at other times, but you are going to expand your horizons a great deal and it is for the best, long-term. Enjoy the ride.

 

[the_STRATOSPHERE]

Thank you all for your thoughts...

I think I am doing a better job at it, mainly I am working on asking questions related to what the other person wants to talk about, instead of questions I want to ask someone based on certain data I want to obtain. I try to ask more open ended questions, talk less, ask for details, etc.

I think empathizing can be learned. I think some people are born with it intuitively, but once you know how someone thinks, and what they're reactions to things are, you can hold that construct in your mind if need be.

Also, I think what I need to do or learn how to do is learn how to occasionally turn the analysis, theory building machine OFF. Not necessarily change myself, but allow my analysis to be put on hold so I can step outside myself every once and awhile.


Thanks again...

 

[sriv]

Why? Analyzing is cool.

 

[the_STRATOSPHERE]

What I don't understand is why you feel a need to participate in humanity as a whole, including the ones you can't relate to all, and not just be among friends. I would think most people seek out friends they can relate to, not people who work differently and make them uncomfortable.

I have had, and still have ample oppertunities to cloister myself among certain groups, especially more "intellectual" groups. I have reveled in this in the past, and continue to revel in being around other NTPs. The question really is not whether to do that at all, but whether to do it exclusively. Why not do both? If anybody needs more information about how other people operate and feel on a contextual level it is those with the most tendency to generate big ideas (NTPs) that may affect humanity, that very group of people that I can "cloister" myself among.

I'm not really trying to be friends with everyone, and such a thing isn't really possible, but I am trying to be able to relate with more people-thats all. An empathic ability is important to have now and I realize that.

Also, you might be confusing goodness with truth. A person without truth can be good (which I think might be what you witnessed), and a person without goodness can know truths. They are not the same thing.

Yeah absolutely true, and I have neglected to remember that in this situation. However, there is some causal relationship between the two that can present itself in certain times. Also, I am used to the second case occuring but not the first. Plus, it gets rather complicated; the second case is easy to imagine, the first isn't. Someone without truth begs the question, "do they know the difference between good and evil?" Or "do they know good?". If not, then I would say it is more of a case of innocence, and not true goodness. If so, they would have to know just the subset of truth that pertains to morality.

Why? Analyzing is cool.

Well here is some analysis for you; you just contradicted yourself. Can you see why? If not, you had better work on your analytical ability some more before you can interject anything meaningful into a conversation about the benefits of being analytical.

 

[sriv]

Well here is some analysis for you; you just contradicted yourself. Can you see why? If not, you had better work on your analytical ability some more before you can interject anything meaningful into a conversation about the benefits of being analytical.

Heh heh, I'm glad you saw that.

 

[Badlands]

If anybody needs more information about how other people operate and feel on a contextual level it is those with the most tendency to generate big ideas (NTPs) that may affect humanity, that very group of people that I can "cloister" myself among.

That's part of it, but I think NTPs need the most information on empathizing with others because NTs in general usually have the hardest time understanding others, because in STs usually the Sensing functions guide the Feeling functions into fruition, while Intuitive functions really don't do that. I haven't gone through something like your situation and probably never will because of an Fe dominant mother, but my dad says he has gone through a phase like this before. Many others have said the type of advice I would give, but I would just like to note there are only two roles that really need to know more about others.

 

[KLessard]

Until that is, I met someone; this person is not a romantic interest, so don't put me in that box. This woman, probably an ISFJ, is nothing like me. Very culturally involved, non-intellectual, concrete, essentially "normal", or so I thought. She is also one of the most kind, considerate, caring, peaceful person I have ever met.

At first, I thought that I could classify her morally, which should be easy to do. Most people that seem extremely kind have alternate motives which can be discerned soon enough using any thought tool (Rand, Utilitarianism, Machiavelli). I turns out, I couldn't find a contradiction in her behavior; for the most part, she seemed genuinely good. Perhaps its cultural then? Perhaps she was brought up in an exceptionally good home, or community, etc?

I realized that my theories were failing. Moreover, I realized that I couldn't understand where she, or anyone else was coming from, how they felt. What her experience was. In trying to understand her goodness, I was undermining it by objectifying her.

I want to "feel people out" now. I want to empathize...but I don't think I can. I can't help but fit them in some sort of framework, and it makes me feel ashamed that I have become that alienated from humanity. I feel trapped in all of my theories and wonder if its too late.

I wonder what my pursuit of the "truth" has made me? Less or more human? What have I become? The truth has led me to a truth that defies its own persuit....

Any help from any personality, is greatful...

Wow, I'm glad to read this testimony of an INTP's prise de conscience about emotions. I certainly don't think it's hopeless. I read in one INTP analysis that it just takes longer for them to reach emotional maturity.
I also know an INTP girl who's slowly reaching out to emotion sometimes, and it looks and sounds like a child's emotions. It's very endearing and your ISFJ probably finds you just as fascinating as you find her. INTPs are VERY fascinating to me (I'm INFJ, something close to ISFJ), and I can say F people will not write you off or judge you for being unemotional at times. They will only be hurt if you are unconsiderate about it.

 

[Risen]

Everyone here has given very good advice that you should take to heart. Especially when it comes to developing your emotions. I'm 19 years old, and my mother is probably in the INT complex, and my experiences with her drove me to severely suppress my emotions. But I quickly started to come back with a "heart", so to speak, when I reached out to different types of people trying to get along. I spent a lot of my high school years exploring the usually non INTP side of things, which I think has greatly aided in my own balance. But then I learned about MBTI and my type, and soon realized thereafter that I was still suppressing some emotions, particularly love and empathy. It kinda led me recognize just how hollow and desensitized I'd somehow become. So with much conscious effort, prayer, and meeting new people, I've come a long way in recognizing the weaknesses psyche/personality, accepting them for what they are, and making the determination to develop them. But I still have my typical INTP dark side urges at times, lol.

 

[Priam]

Wow, I'm glad to read this testimony of an INTP's prise de conscience about emotions. I certainly don't think it's hopeless. I read in one INTP analysis that it just takes longer for them to reach emotional maturity.
I also know an INTP girl who's slowly reaching out to emotion sometimes, and it looks and sounds like a child's emotions. It's very endearing and your ISFJ probably finds you just as fascinating as you find her. INTPs are VERY fascinating to me (I'm INFJ, something close to ISFJ), and I can say F people will not write you off or judge you for being unemotional at times. They will only be hurt if you are unconsiderate about it.

Please, once again, could you avoid sounding condescending? As an INTP I am quite aware that emotional awareness of self is a major weakness for me, but I can quite easily detect my own annoyance at being equated with some sort of cute child fumbling around or a puppy who just can't quite be house trained but is just trying so hard.

Simplicity does not equal simple or childish.

 

[Totenkindly]

..I think empathizing can be learned. I think some people are born with it intuitively, but once you know how someone thinks, and what they're reactions to things are, you can hold that construct in your mind if need be.

Yes, there is an empathy that is more instinctive -- you don't have to actively think about it, you "feel" how the other person feels and understand them.

I think INTPs will be more mentally active in their empathy. It's a combination of Ti + Ne and a reference to Si past experience -- you create a model of the person inside, attach experienced emotions to it where appropriate, and then you can guess probably what the other person is feeling and put yourself in their shoes.

It's okay to approach it that way, the end result is still pretty good.

Please, once again, could you avoid sounding condescending? As an INTP I am quite aware that emotional awareness of self is a major weakness for me, but I can quite easily detect my own annoyance at being equated with some sort of cute child fumbling around or a puppy who just can't quite be house trained but is just trying so hard. Simplicity does not equal simple or childish.

I guess we could talk about how cute and endearing it is to watch an INFJ remain detached from a situation and logic through it instead of just applying their moral judgments to it...?

That being said, I think it was just poor wording on KLessard's part and not intentional to project that sort of attitude.

 

[Xander]

"May god grant me the strength to be less independant, but do things my way"
~The INTP's MBTI Prayer (or at least and approximation which I recall as close enough)

Stand alone, be alone. Choose your team mates however you feel/ think is best but don't imagine that one person can be enough for everything, that is rare indeed.

 

[Priam]

I guess we could talk about how cute and endearing it is to watch an INFJ remain detached from a situation and logic through it instead of just applying their moral judgments to it...?

That being said, I think it was just poor wording on KLessard's part and not intentional to project that sort of attitude.

Y'know I'm sure that's true, inasmuch as what KLessard wanted to say, but this is the second time I've seen them reach for this analogy in a discussion about INTP emotions (and got called out about it then). Once is my misunderstanding of intent and belief, twice is their misunderstanding of intent and belief.

 

[Spartacuss]

Wow, I'm glad to read this testimony of an INTP's prise de conscience about emotions. I certainly don't think it's hopeless. I read in one INTP analysis that it just takes longer for them to reach emotional maturity.
I also know an INTP girl who's slowly reaching out to emotion sometimes, and it looks and sounds like a child's emotions. It's very endearing and your ISFJ probably finds you just as fascinating as you find her. INTPs are VERY fascinating to me (I'm INFJ, something close to ISFJ), and I can say F people will not write you off or judge you for being unemotional at times. They will only be hurt if you are unconsiderate about it.

Maybe sometimes it seems childish because it's insincere. Especially if pressed for an emotional response, and unable to FLEE the scene, an INTP can imitate what she imagines is required. Because the response seems childish/ silly to the INTP when she views it in others, you get a childish/silly reproduction from her, too.