• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] Christian NTs

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
Religion doesnt exist simply because its socially useful or utilitarian and its not simply a form of relief, a lot of the worlds religions were pioneered by hermits and wandering sages who did not preach to others or seek to spread their teachings at all, still others were inspired by messages from teachers to withdraw from social intercourse and live solitary existences.

There is also much more to religion than ethics and I would suggest that it is total and utter confusion to associate superstition with religion properly understood. What I think you mean is that you believe it would be civilising if religion transformed into humanism, that is incredibly reductive of what religion is and the role it plays for individuals.

Like I said before it is not merely utilitarian or socially useful, I would be inclined to agree with Jung in Modern Man In Search of His Soul, that religion corresponds to deep seated psychological needs, which are often not active in the first phase of life at all, hence all the young atheists who have arisen in this generation I would suspect, and this is not a consequence of impending or approaching mortality, its about accomplishment, achievement or transcendence of other life goals and challenges.

Jung considered the whole process to correspond to the activation of archetypes, I'm not sure that's the whole story, cultural pressures and popular thinking can have a bigger impact than even the most self-proclaimed non-conformist would acknowledge or believe and I think it takes time before people are able to think about these things without prejudice.

religion surely corresponds to a lot of psychological needs, otherwise its success couldnt be explained. but a religion that does say abortion is evil, a pope that tells africans that condoms are evil and a religion that prohibits sex before marriage isnt a humane guidance, but a ritual rulebook.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,568
religion surely corresponds to a lot of psychological needs, otherwise its success couldnt be explained. but a religion that does say abortion is evil, a pope that tells africans that condoms are evil and a religion that prohibits sex before marriage isnt a humane guidance, but a ritual rulebook.

I think that's a very simplistic and reductive argument to suggest that religion is purely psychological projection.

Do you understand any of those ethical arguments you are critical off there? I understand that you find them objectionable but exactly why?

The church's teachings in relation to sexual life and sexual fidelity predate, and I believe could even post date, abortion, artificial contraception and norms of promiscuity and licentiousness.

Abortion is never anything other than evil because it can not be something which someone deliberately chooses, it is a contingency and only ever is a contingency, it is not something which someone would deliberately want to have and plan as their purpose or final outcome of sexual intercourse. Now I believe it is possible to consider it a necessary evil but it remains an evil rather than a positive. This was the view of the founder of planned parenthood you know, who considered it an inhumane and horrific reality existing only as a consequence of inequality and failures in thinking and planning.

Contraception, artificial contraception, I'm not sure has been condemned as evil, if it has been it has not been condemned purely in the African context and I would suggest it is racist to focus only upon that. It is not endorsed by the RC church because it is considered a violation of natural law and natural contraception is considered acceptable by the RC church. Would contraception be the answer to AIDS epidemics and population problems in those nations? I'm really not sure, not sure at all, were sexism, rape, incest and prevailing lack of law and order are the norm I really doubt that the cause of explosions in STDs and population can be reduced to the availability of condoms.

The Church, when you think about it, has a very enlightened view of sexuality which corresponds to perrenial ideas about human suffering, much suffering is caused by sexual licentiousness, promiscuity in "normal" first world contexts, where the individuals have a secure base in supportive, interested and supportive parents or extended family, can still cause individual shame, scandal, addiction, ruined relationships, emotional breakdowns, misery and suffering and that is before the problems of rape, date rape, human trafficking, prostitution, child exploitation, the so called sex trade or their accompanying miseries are considered or factored into it.

Sex is not central to religion either, not even those which would be described by many modernists as "sex positive", ie encouraging sexual experimentation, do not put it at the centre of things, which is very different from even pop culture. I think this makes it very hard to understand or sympathise with, especially when it is being considered from the perspective of an "outsider" who may have elected to adopt a position of opposition to begin with.
 
R

Riva

Guest
Everyone needs faith!

Seriously people would feel lost and depressed without it. Maybe not depressed but I am failing to find the words to describe it.
 
R

Riva

Guest
The most religious of all NTs?

^

Anyway I have noticed that xNTJs are quite religious. Out of the NT category ENTJs are the most religious, followed by INTJs>ENTPs. And the least likely to be religious are the INTPs and are the most likely to be atheist out of all MBTI types.

ENTJs
The ENTJs tend to not question systems. They seem to find better ways of doing things. They are not usually questioners of things but rather efficiency builders. This applies to their religion too. They would not usually question their own religion. They would simply find some practices unworthy, outdated and would probably blame the followers for inventing those rather than blame the religion itself. Therefore would refrain from some practices which they believe are unworthy or not practice the religion at all.

INTJs
The INTJs are like pendulums. They are either extremely religious or not religious at all. It's not that they are not religious (believes in a higher power), but that they totally condemn religion (higher power) according to their own realizations based on experience and discoveries.

ENTPs
The ENTP ones tend to be irreligious (doesn't take religion too seriously) than totally condemn the belief of a higher power. They tend to live by their own explanation/interpretation of 'their religion' rather than totally condemn it untrue.

INTPs
INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.
 

Helios

Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
273
MBTI Type
INTP
I'd like to point out that many of the most well-known "atrocious killers" - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - were not particularly religious, and were all open promoters of atheism. Although there is evidence to say that Hitler was a Christian, there is also evidence otherwise, and Stalin is "worse" in terms of kill count. In fact, Stalin literally has the highest kill count of any leader ever. Mao might actually be worse if you look at how many people died as the result of his policies.

Hitler was far from an open advocate of atheism. I fail to see the relevance here, however: was Stalin's (supposed) atheism the cause of his actions?

And don't tell me that "they aren't real atheists", because I guarantee you that the Christians that committed the crusades and other acts of violence were not real Christians. I don't discount atheism because of the atrocities done by atheist leaders, neither should atheists discount religion for the atrocities done in its name. I think the claim that religion is bad due to all the atrocities done in its name is "dubious at best". In fact, I think it's complete bullshit.

How convenient: whenever a Christian acts objectionably, she is not a "real Christian", but whenever she acts charitably, she is of course a "real Christian".

Nevertheless, you are overlooking a subtle distinction here. There is nothing to show that Stalin, for example, did what he did in virtue of his atheism. Yet violence carried out by the religiously inclined is frequently predicated, explicitly, on the idea that to do that violence is demanded by the relevant god, or something similar.


And you say my claim about happiness is unfounded, but it's actually well founded in research, and more than just one overblown study. This does nothing to prove or disprove religion of course.

I said no such thing. Regardless, a link to a Wikipedia article will not persuade me of anything.

While I will admit that many Christians have some dumb political views, not all of them do. To be quite honest, many of the Christians that I know are liberals and couldn't give two shits as to whether or not gay marriage was legalized, and would actually fight against the mistreatment of homosexuals. I'm practically a socialist myself. Go look at this topic that I started.

The Bible clearly says that homosexuality is wrong, but most Christians I know don't judge homosexuals at all. The kindest people that I've met are religious, usually Christians. I once had a gay guy like me (romantically, I mean). I didn't care, and I'm still his friend, because I think he's an awesome dude. Truth be told, it probably would have been more awkward if a girl liked me who I didn't like. Most homosexual men I've met seem nicer than the straight ones anyway.

If only the tens of millions of conservative Christians in the US, and indeed elsewhere, were inclined to be so tolerant.

Going along with your "white men" point, I don't think that white men are more charitable than other races. But religious people honestly do seem more charitable than non-religious people. And I'm not just guessing here; studies show that religious people are significantly more charitable than non-religious ones. Although upon further research, some of my claims about religious charities were wrong. At the same time, though, even in that article, the writer has very few statistics, and I do think that Christians' donations are inspired by their beliefs.

It is probably not possible to know whether religious people are more charitable than the non-religious. It should be noted that even if the former are more generous than the latter, this is no evidence that their charity is a consequence of their religiosity.

Not according to your worldview. Hell, I don't think that anything should be considered objectively "better" or "worse" according to your worldview. I'm not saying that this makes your beliefs untrue, but if you want to be consistent with the logical progression of your worldview, than Mao and Stalin (and Hitler and Ghengis Kahn and the crusade leaders) did nothing wrong, objectively speaking.

On top of this, if you have decided for yourself, subjectively, that it is "better" to try and help people and improve others' lives as well as your own, false beliefs might actually be better.

I'm not indifferent towards truth; I think that truth is very important. I'm just saying that according to your beliefs it really shouldn't mean anything.

Since you know almost nothing about me, I am puzzled as to how you have come to know what my "worldview" is, assuming I even have one (I don't). You also falsely assume I referred to rectitude rather than some other type of virtue. Besides this, you merely assert that on atheism an "objective" morality is impossible, but offer no demonstration of why this should be thought to be the case. I also don't know what it means for "truth" not to "mean anything".

As a final point, none of the thing I'm saying here are trying to prove or disprove any worldview. I'm just saying that none of your claims refute religion, and many are inconsistent with your beliefs or are outright false.

Where was I trying to "refute religion"? I am only contending here that religion is generally disadvantageous to society. That theism is false I treat as axiomatic, and I in fact do not take theism sufficiently seriously to make its truthfulness discussable.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,243
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
INTPs
INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.

Where do you pull this junk from?
Over 90%?
"Condemn"? That's a pretty strong word to describe a type that is more apt to discern inherent ambiguities.

To be honest, I hate these kinds of posts more than I hate religious thought.
 

gmanyo

sswwwaagggg
Joined
Jun 8, 2010
Messages
275
MBTI Type
ENTP
Since you know almost nothing about me, I am puzzled as to how you have come to know what my "worldview" is, assuming I even have one (I don't). You also falsely assume I referred to rectitude rather than some other type of virtue. Besides this, you merely assert that on atheism an "objective" morality is impossible, but offer no demonstration of why this should be thought to be the case. I also don't know what it means for "truth" not to "mean anything".

Response coming later, but I did want to say sorry for claiming to know your worldview, because I don't. Derp.

I'm going to bed soon, though, and a response will take awhile.
 
R

Riva

Guest
Where do you pull this junk from?
Over 90%?
"Condemn"? That's a pretty strong word to describe a type that is more apt to discern inherent ambiguities.

To be honest, I hate these kinds of posts more than I hate religious thought.

Fine, discern due to ambiguities of religion it is then, INTPs are.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
INTPs
INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.
And faith is extremely hard for the 10% or so, of us!
 

Rasofy

royal member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,881
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
^

Anyway I have noticed that xNTJs are quite religious. Out of the NT category ENTJs are the most religious, followed by INTJs>ENTPs. And the least likely to be religious are the INTPs and are the most likely to be atheist out of all MBTI types.

ENTJs
The ENTJs tend to not question systems. They seem to find better ways of doing things. They are not usually questioners of things but rather efficiency builders. This applies to their religion too. They would not usually question their own religion. They would simply find some practices unworthy, outdated and would probably blame the followers for inventing those rather than blame the religion itself. Therefore would refrain from some practices which they believe are unworthy or not practice the religion at all.

INTJs
The INTJs are like pendulums. They are either extremely religious or not religious at all. It's not that they are not religious (believes in a higher power), but that they totally condemn religion (higher power) according to their own realizations based on experience and discoveries.

ENTPs
The ENTP ones tend to be irreligious (doesn't take religion too seriously) than totally condemn the belief of a higher power. They tend to live by their own explanation/interpretation of 'their religion' rather than totally condemn it untrue.

INTPs
INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.
Haha, great stuff. :laugh:
I hate when people say ''I don't think type matters in this case blah blah blah'', even though different personalities tend to deal with everything in different ways.
Of course mbti alone will never be enough to make any strict rule, as there are many other factors involved, but it can nonetheless be used to reach statistically significant conclusions.
The 90% part sounds far fetched though. :alttongue:
 
R

Riva

Guest
And faith is extremely hard for the 10% or so, of us!

Haha, great stuff. :laugh:
I hate when people say ''I don't think type matters in this case blah blah blah'', even though different personalities tend to deal with everything in different ways.

Thank you!

The 90% part sounds far fetched though. :alttongue:

You could be right. The demographics would also play a large part in this. Anyway what I posted is from my real life experience combined with a little bit of forum member (to be honest) observations.

Of course mbti alone will never be enough to make any strict rule, as there are many other factors involved, but it can nonetheless be used to reach statistically significant conclusions.

Yes it is. I live in a Nontheistic 'religious' society. So the nontheistic religious INTPs tend to believe, agree and try to adhere to the philosophical aspect of it. But are rather skeptical of the description of Devas (Gods/higher powers). So are they religious? or are they not? Or could they not be categorized?

But, from what I have observed (and I do observe a lot of things and add to it I am nosy and intrusive) INTPs are the least likely to believe in a higher power. And this usually starts at an early age.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,193
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
The Church, when you think about it, has a very enlightened view of sexuality which corresponds to perrenial ideas about human suffering, much suffering is caused by sexual licentiousness, promiscuity in "normal" first world contexts, where the individuals have a secure base in supportive, interested and supportive parents or extended family, can still cause individual shame, scandal, addiction, ruined relationships, emotional breakdowns, misery and suffering and that is before the problems of rape, date rape, human trafficking, prostitution, child exploitation, the so called sex trade or their accompanying miseries are considered or factored into it.
When I think about the RCC and sex, "enlightened" is not the term that comes to mind. More like backward and repressed. When healthy, consensual sexual intimacy between adults is overregulated and made to seem shameful outside certain narrowly defined conditions, it only encourages the expression of those normal human desires in less healthy circumstances. Shame and scandal are not "real" consequences of sexual interaction; they are artifacts of culture. Go to another continent, or fast-forward another generation, and they are muted or gone entirely.

The gender bias that pervades the church is an integral part of its attitude to sex, and a key contributor to much of the misery and suffering you mention, especially on the part of women. The sexually autonomous woman is used in the Bible as a metaphor for when the Israelites were not faithful to God, the ultimate sin. For generations, the church practiced a ritual called the churching of women, in which a new mother was "cleansed" after childbirth, making her fit to return to church. The idea of childbirth as spiritually dirty is just perverse, and a great example of how the church has long denigrated things of the body as shameful, perpetuating a body/spirit separation that is both harmful and illusory.

I once read a book by the much-beloved Pope John Paul II in which he stated it was wrong for a husband and wife to abstain from sex for awhile in order to avoid conception. This type of micromanagement and related guilt regarding sexuality seems anything but enlightened. Yes, condoms will not eliminate sexism, rape, and anarchy in troubled areas. Medical supplies will not stop wars and terrorism either, but we don't deny them to those who live in such conditions. While addressing the root causes is necessary, it is only humane to address the symptoms as well.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,243
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Yes. My cousin is INTP. He is a judo master in apologetics.

Yeah, that was basically my main focus in Christianity for years too, and the first thing I was very much interested in, since I was trying so hard to sort everything out for myself. I still own a lot of the books I bought over the years, explaining the background of passages, comparisons to other religions and cultures, and discussion of "controversial" topics or interpretations.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,568
Thank you for your points, I've got some thoughtful replies for you which I hope you will read in the spirit of open and genuine enquiry as opposed to polemical, vitriol and prejudice.

When I think about the RCC and sex, "enlightened" is not the term that comes to mind. More like backward and repressed. When healthy, consensual sexual intimacy between adults is overregulated and made to seem shameful outside certain narrowly defined conditions, it only encourages the expression of those normal human desires in less healthy circumstances. Shame and scandal are not "real" consequences of sexual interaction; they are artifacts of culture. Go to another continent, or fast-forward another generation, and they are muted or gone entirely.

OK, let us then consider which society is happier, that which is as you suggest "backward and repressed" and is typified by things such as courty love, platonic relationships, convivality and norms of respect and honour between sexes and one which is totally licentious, the going "to another continent" or "fast forwarding another generation", in one perhaps someone is neurotic because they have internalised social norms as their super ego, they could experience internal conflicts but in the other rape, domination and objectification is the norm. That really is enlightenment? Truthfully?

What are the narrow parameters and what are the less healthy circumstances which correspond to belief in monogamy and fidelity? Erasmus wrote at great length in praise of marriage, he was contrasting it with the hierarchy's emphasis upon celibacy, Hans Kung has written in praise of eros in contrast to agape love, which is also in contrast or conflict with the present and previous Pope's teaching but it is a diversity of position within the same school of thought. A little different from "anything goes".

The gender bias that pervades the church is an integral part of its attitude to sex, and a key contributor to much of the misery and suffering you mention, especially on the part of women. The sexually autonomous woman is used in the Bible as a metaphor for when the Israelites were not faithful to God, the ultimate sin. For generations, the church practiced a ritual called the churching of women, in which a new mother was "cleansed" after childbirth, making her fit to return to church. The idea of childbirth as spiritually dirty is just perverse, and a great example of how the church has long denigrated things of the body as shameful, perpetuating a body/spirit separation that is both harmful and illusory.

I've no problem with that, the subordination of women within the RCC is not exactly as most simplistic assessments make it appear, for instance there are religious orders for females within the RCC church, which to me makes the question of female ordination to the priesthood a null and void question. There is also no evidence that Jesus professed or practiced any of the patriarchial norms, he had a number of women principle among his followers, he also appeared to a group of women when he rose from the dead and it is their testamony, not believed at first, which was the first witness to the possibility of his resurrection from the dead. God did choose to be incarnate as a man and not a woman when he came to earth as Jesus but I would consider that a realpolitik reflection of the norms and culture of the day.

I once read a book by the much-beloved Pope John Paul II in which he stated it was wrong for a husband and wife to abstain from sex for awhile in order to avoid conception.

Really? What was that book? I just ask because this vague reference is out of keeping with what I know is the teaching of the Church and it would be a surprise to me to discover that there was any official comment in contradiction of this teaching which had not come down to practicing RCs attending Church on a weekly basis but which has been circulated to non-believers who are critical of the sexual morality and teaching of the church instead.

This type of micromanagement and related guilt regarding sexuality seems anything but enlightened.

Please clarify for me here what your objection is? That there is advice or guidance per se? The advice given by the RC church, that fidelity is a good thing, that monogamy is a good thing are often echoed by secular sources, that family planning is preferable to lust and licentiousness? If you're going to object to advice or guidance per se then I suspect that you'll have to put Cosmo or similar sources in the dock too.

Yes, condoms will not eliminate sexism, rape, and anarchy in troubled areas. Medical supplies will not stop wars and terrorism either, but we don't deny them to those who live in such conditions. While addressing the root causes is necessary, it is only humane to address the symptoms as well.

I'm not sure how you begin to eliminate those things while advocating or supporting the distribution of some of the means or paraphrenalia, it's a little like supporting the distribution of firearms to bank raiders while having a conscientious objection to bank raiding.

There is also some very explicit teaching by Pope Benedict, in published sources (Here is a link, just in contrast to you vaguaries about the last Pope's teachings: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Things-Pope-Benedict-Wants-Know/dp/0764816721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329649325&sr=8-1), that the RCC aims to form consciences but not involve itself in politics. Therefore unless the authorities have themselves sought to prohibit the availability of contraceptives, as the ROI did once I remember, they will be available and it is a matter of individual conscience whether or not the believers choose to use them or not.

What is absolutely clear is that if someone is going to engage in sexual intercourse and refuses to use condoms because the RCC prohibits the use of contraceptives they can not be that worried about RCC teaching about sex in the first place and it is merely a pretext, the problem I would suspect is greater and possibly to do with sexism in a broader national sense.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
The Roman Catholic Church caused sexual misery for the laity for centuries so it was no surprise when the laity turned on the Church at the first opportunity.

And it was the revelation of widespead pederasty within the clergy, the perversion of justice, and the blaming of whistleblowers, that gave the laity the opportunity to strike back.

The response of the clergy to this blow struck by the laity was pure defensiveness and the blaming of others.

And as a result half of the laity have left the Church.

And worse, it was the adult half of the laity that voted with their feet, leaving behind a defensive clergy and a child-like laity.
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
^

Anyway I have noticed that xNTJs are quite religious. Out of the NT category ENTJs are the most religious, followed by INTJs>ENTPs. And the least likely to be religious are the INTPs and are the most likely to be atheist out of all MBTI types.

ENTJs
The ENTJs tend to not question systems. They seem to find better ways of doing things. They are not usually questioners of things but rather efficiency builders. This applies to their religion too. They would not usually question their own religion. They would simply find some practices unworthy, outdated and would probably blame the followers for inventing those rather than blame the religion itself. Therefore would refrain from some practices which they believe are unworthy or not practice the religion at all.

INTJs
The INTJs are like pendulums. They are either extremely religious or not religious at all. It's not that they are not religious (believes in a higher power), but that they totally condemn religion (higher power) according to their own realizations based on experience and discoveries.

ENTPs
The ENTP ones tend to be irreligious (doesn't take religion too seriously) than totally condemn the belief of a higher power. They tend to live by their own explanation/interpretation of 'their religion' rather than totally condemn it untrue.

INTPs
INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.

I neither belief in a 'higher power' nor do I go with things by my own interpretation. I try to see the world rational and try to see 'what is' and that is what I believe in. The scientists, who brought me in their books and teachings to think so, share the same belief in reason and rationality.
 
R

Riva

Guest
I neither belief in a 'higher power' nor do I go with things by my own interpretation. I try to see the world rational and try to see 'what is' and that is what I believe in. The scientists, who brought me in their books and teachings to think so, share the same belief in reason and rationality.

And I swear to the God I worship that I sincerely believe that you are an ExFP.

Nothing absolutely nothing that you say (the long posts, not the short once which cannot be analysed) I could relate to Ti (can see Ti in). I see no Ti in you at all. Infact when you do make a long post it reeks Fi and melts any Ti around it.

Your posts are usually how you personally feel about things.

But of course, if there is ever a poll about your type a majority of people would vote ENTP.
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
And I swear to the God I worship that I sincerely believe that you are an ExFP.

Nothing absolutely nothing that you say (the long posts, not the short once which cannot be analysed) I could relate to Ti (can see Ti in). I see no Ti in you at all. Infact when you do make a long post it reeks Fi and melts any Ti around it.

Your posts are usually how you personally feel about things.

But of course, if there is ever a poll about your type a majority of people would vote ENTP.

This's because I am living together for 7 years now with an infp, what has changed me. it would be an honor for me to call myself an enfp but regarding my idealism (which is pragmatism) and my tactfulness, I'ld feel like a black man going to a Ku Klux Clan meeting in the NF domain.
 
Top