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[NT] truth = logic

Magic Poriferan

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I don't think it's quite right to say logic equates to the truth, but it is the means by which we verify truth. It is also how we formulate ideas to begin with, even the construction of a linguistic sentence is more a less a logical process.

But do look at this way that may favor the OP. Does truth exist in any inherent sense? Is truth a part of reality, or strictly a subjective human concept? If it's strictly subjective, than perhaps logic, by being the means of determining truth, is in fact truth.

:shrug:
 

Mycroft

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INTP, if you frame it as "karen = human" you are, indeed saying that the two are interchangeable. If you were to say:

logic = truth
feelings = truth

...feelings = logic would follow.

When someone has asserted that "logic = truth" and you respond with "feelings are just as true as logic", I don't see how this could be interpreted as anything other than the assertion that "feelings = truth".
 

Poki

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I don't think it's quite right to say logic equates to the truth, but it is the means by which we verify truth. It is also how we formulate ideas to begin with, even the construction of a linguistic sentence is more a less a logical process.

But do look at this way that may favor the OP. Does truth exist in any inherent sense? Is truth a part of reality, or strictly a subjective human concept? If it's strictly subjective, than perhaps logic, by being the means of determining truth, is in fact truth.

:shrug:

Will the search for truth ever end or is it like trying to zoom in on a fractal? This ignores the false or the lies which is more like a mobius strip leading you in circles.
 

Mycroft

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Red Herring, unfortunately I can only respond briefly:

- I never claimed that emotions have no validity at all. The proper place of emotions would make an interesting thread for another day. I do claim that emotions are neither a form of truth nor a means of arriving at truth, which are the only two ways I can see interpreting INTP's initial statement.

- Although in truly rigorous debate, etc., it would be necessary to be absolutely clear about what was meant by "house", "city", "time zone", etc., these are all existents, and are therefore things about which statements, truthful or untruthful, could be made.

- If we were to quantify what physical state is denoted by the term "anger", it would indeed be something that could be proven or disproven. (This hypothetical subject would either be displaying increased heart rate, etc., or he would not be.) However, to borrow your own example from earlier, saying that an emotion is "true" is like saying that a chair is "true". Equally, saying that an emotion "exists" requires a definition of existence which is so ambiguous that although it may be well-suited to literary work, it would not be useful to debate and discussion.

At any rate, it seems we're now simultaneously addressing two things:

1. Whether or not emotions can be said to "exist"
2. Whether or not emotions are a means of arriving at truthful postulates about the universe we inhabit

I'll make a new thread at some point.
 

Poki

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- I never claimed that emotions have no validity at all. The proper place of emotions would make an interesting thread for another day. I do claim that emotions are neither a form of truth nor a means of arriving at truth, which are the only two ways I can see interpreting INTP's initial statement.

feelings are just as much "truth" as logic is truth. That stumps me to no end. Do you know what feelings are?


oh...I understand....should have read your entire post...."about the universe we inhabit"...you must have taken people out of the universe :doh:
 

Magic Poriferan

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Will the search for truth ever end or is it like trying to zoom in on a fractal? This ignores the false or the lies which is more like a mobius strip leading you in circles.

No. I think it's infinitely divisible.
 

INTP

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INTP, if you frame it as "karen = human" you are, indeed saying that the two are interchangeable. If you were to say:

logic = truth
feelings = truth

...feelings = logic would follow.

When someone has asserted that "logic = truth" and you respond with "feelings are just as true as logic", I don't see how this could be interpreted as anything other than the assertion that "feelings = truth".

Sorry, but you make it impossible to put any sense in you, so ill just that lol noob :----DDDD
 
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So It Goes

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Will the search for truth ever end or is it like trying to zoom in on a fractal? This ignores the false or the lies which is more like a mobius strip leading you in circles.

That reminds me of the Kafka parable, Before the Law.

A man goes to a castle tower to see the "Law" but is prevented from seeing the Law because of the first doorman. The doorman remains with the seeker as he tries all sorts of ploys and tactics to enter but he still fails in his search. He waits for years and years, and before finally dying, the doorman closes the door on him, and says that he was the only one capable of finding that door. The "door" was only made for him to "find."

Now, this story can be interpreted in many different ways. Was the seeker there of his own free-will or determined to seek the truth that he couldn't find? Or was the bottom doorman determined to be there to fulfill the actions that reflected the man's search and incapability of finding the truth? Were these levels that the man couldn't find aspects of an objective reality, or maybe, the inner subjective reality that is deeper than the surface experience. Is the search for truth utterly absurd and filled with contradictions or is there a way of finding it in some way, even if only experientially?

I'm not really asking you to answer these questions.

I just think this parable, depending on how you see it, could say something important about our desires to find truth, whatever that may be.
 

entropie

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Love and hate aint logical sometimes, still there existance is truth.

Theory falsified
 

gmanyo

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I think the point is that all feelings and logic are signals sent through your body. I don't necessarily believe this, because I am a theist, but if I wasn't I certainly would. That was a confusing statement.
 

entropie

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I think the point is that all feelings and logic are signals sent through your body. I don't necessarily believe this, because I am a theist, but if I wasn't I certainly would. That was kind of a confusing statement.

still we are slaves to that vessel. And the question is, if we werent, would we be able to know what truth then would feel like ?
 

Santosha

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What do NT's think about discordianism? lol
 

guesswho

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I think the point is that all feelings and logic are signals sent through your body. I don't necessarily believe this, because I am a theist, but if I wasn't I certainly would. That was a confusing statement.

I don't understand how the existence of God would change any of this.

I also don't understand why you said this:
It would work as an ironic critique of atheists who are just atheists because they jump on the atheist bandwagon
this
an illogical argument for logic
and this
Especially since it ends with the "beautiful" picture

It's strange how if I would have said "Hey I read the zodiac every day before going to work, and somehow things happen like it says there, there would have been probably one person to say, hey cool I do that too you're right"

However if I said "Life's a string of possibilities which influence who we are, we are the result of those possibilities"

Then oh.no logic fail.

We live in a string of possibilities all our lives.

If A, then B, then C, then D
If X, then Y, then Z

D is me being a computer programmer. It was probably determined by C, support from family, and achievement in school and shit.
Z is me being a homeless guy living on crack. And was probably determined by Y, which was a stressful event that turned everything upside down.

They all add up, and determine who you are.

I see no flaw in my reasoning.

Also the only argument that favors religion is that you can't really prove 100% that god doesn't exist, therefor, God may exist.

However the logical answer would be: I cannot know if God exists or not, making both atheism and theism pretty much nonsense. Seriously, how would we know? It doesn't make any sense.

Also, truth = logic is a mere metaphor.

As I said, to me it's like saying the potter = pottery.

Even though it may present no logical sense, when you look at it like a poem, like something with no structure you see things differently.

I imagined it as I previously said:
The potter = Pottery => The potter does a flawless job, the job defines him and he defines the job.
Logic = Truth => Logic does a flawless job, Logic defines truth, and truth defines logic.
It's circular.

How does this make no sense?

I cannot understand.

And how does this lead to:
It would work as an ironic critique of atheists who are just atheists because they jump on the atheist bandwagon

There's also been an interesting logical test on the internet.

And before it started, it asked a very simple question: Do you believe in God? And I see that there are 2 deviations from the "Yes", the No and the I don't know if God exists or doesn't and none of us can.
Both of these answers were a LONG way from "Yes"

And surprise, the people who recognized most logical patterns answered the least with "Yes" to this question.

Can't screw with the math man.

However, a "Yes" in the God question does not exclude a high result in the test, it just makes it unlikelier.

I found that very interesting.

I also find it interesting that it is highly likely that "Hey I read the horoscope and bla bla bla" may actually considered be more accepted by other people than that what I said.

But whatever

Whatcha gonna do?

It's just the world we live in.

I probably shouldn't have posted this and just left it where it was.
 

guesswho

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And you can take "Life is a string of possibilities " even further you can get to All possibilities come true in multiple universes.

Which sounds really nice, and adds more meaning even though it's just pure speculation.

Which results in: Everything comes true.

Every possible scenario, every possible outcome, is somewhere. Either an abstract or a concrete world.

I'd rather believe in this than in whatever "theism" means.

And there's also something very nice to this.

See, if there are an infinite amount of universes, or at least a so called infinite value of universes, then the possibility of life on Earth and an universe such as ours is no longer some rare and unlikely event, it becomes an outcome.

Which changes things even more.

Life itself has become a possible outcome, a conclusion.

And so on.

Connecting the dots, even the ones that may not exist.

And it still doesn't fail.

It stands up as a reasonable explanation to a lot if not everything.

Just a string of possibilities.

So, if we look into things a little deeper, everything becomes an effect of something else, a chain reaction of an apparently inter connected web.
 

Istbkleta

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Too much.

Power/strength = truth

I think you associate logic with strength/power without realizing it cause to you that's the ultimate source of power.
 
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