[INTJ] INTJ Habitat Capsule

[Blackmail!]

The more I learn about personality types, the more certain I become of my INTJ-ness. Everything fits.

Dear "Duke of York",

This is a classic mistake. You want to persuade yourself you're an INTJ because, for a reason or another, you perceive them as the ideal type.
But you know, no one can be sure of its own type unless he checked different point of views, not only what our Ego say or want.

"How we want to be", is not the same as "How we really are".

Most MBTI tests show us only how we want to be, and just as Haphazard pointed, once your MBTI innocence is gone, it's easy to be in self-denial.

You know, I'm telling you this because I made the same mistake, and because several other people did. I wanted to be an ENFP, but when I listened other points of views (those of my friends, for instance), I realized some points wouldn't fit. Wandering and Sciski noticed the same trend, and my first reaction was not to understand what they were trying to say. But after a while, I realized they might be right after all.

That's what you need: other points of views.

So be wise for a change and listen.

---

Let's be brutally honest. I've checked many times the INTJ forum, and the least I can say is that you always were the odd one. You didn't look at all like other so-called INTJs:

You are very emotional, INTJ's aren't.
You are very egocentric and irrational. INTJs aren't.
You are very religious. The vast majority of INTJs aren't.
You take every criticism as a personal offense. Most INTJs don't care.

Compared to the average INTJ, you were unable to understand or notice flawed logic, and you never were aware how easy it was to emotionally manipulate you, since most of your answers simply were out of any proportions, out of context.

---

I don't know your type. I'd say ISFJ but I could be wrong.
But what I know, is that pretending to be another type than our real one is pointless, and dangerous. Especially when every evidences are against that possibility.

There are no better type than the other. No type is inherently superior. But I'd say being an healthy ISFJ, an ISFJ who knows who he really is, is far better than being a very dysfunctional INTJ.

I know you want to be a "panther", the smartest, the coolest, the most dangerous, but that's only a idealized self-portrait.

As for myself, there are many points I don't like with the idea of being an ENTP. I know my flaws, it's always difficult to accept them. But at least, I now know what demons I have to fight.


"Know thyself" -Socrates

 

[Apollonian]

Analyse your actions/reactions/emotions, look in the mirror and observe others.. then correct your subconscious processes so you become what you'd like on a conscious level.

I have recently become preoccupied with this line of reasoning. Yet, despite some academic knowledge of pop psychology and some cursory knowledge of cognitive science, I am at a loss as to where I might begin.

For one, how does one identify and isolate elements of one's psyche which one wishes to change? "Cognitive distortions" seem easy enough, but they are only one small example in the set of undesirable behavior. "Cognitive dissonance" appears promising but not well defined. To what extent are such things genetic versus habitual (or both)? Should we avoid 'changing' certain traits regardless of their apparent undesirability? (e.g. acquiescing to peer pressure despite abdicating our own identities?)

Second, how does one go about "correcting your subconscious processes"? This seems easier said than done, with no consistently effective method.

Lastly, how may we definitively answer the question "which problems that I face are caused by other people rather than myself?" How can we definitively know whether we are correctly or incorrectly displacing blame for our own problems to other people?

If anyone has any thoughts (or references!) on how an all too intellectual INTJ may explore and/or accomplish these aims, I would be greatly abliged.

 

[matmos]

Dear "Duke of York"...

Aw Blackmail! I was rather looking forward to this thread turning into irrelevant crap.

While we're at it, I've always wan't to be an SF - rolling in the hay with a pretty girl and a bottle of brandy. Please!?

Beats all this NT shit any day of the week I reckon.

Prost!

 

[Haphazard]

While we're at it, I've always wan't to be an SF - rolling in the hay with a pretty girl and a bottle of brandy. Please!?

Beats all this NT shit any day of the week I reckon.

Prost!

Let's face it, being an NT sucks. If I had my choice, I'd pick ISTP. Lol.

 

[matmos]

Let's face it, being an NT sucks. If I had my choice, I'd pick ISTP. Lol.

Why would you want to be a hired killer? An assassin!

Look in your heart, Tommy! [A picture of a kipper to anyone who can name the film. No googling].

Edit: I'm beginning to like it here

 

[Kiddo]

With all due respect, perhaps its YOU that is the problem?

I didn't suggest otherwise. My philosophy is it takes two to tango.

INTJs are just as single-minded, dismissive, stubborn, unyielding, relentless, and defensive as INFJs. The difference being INFJs value integrity and INTJs value competency.

 

[Haphazard]

Why would you want to be a hired killer? An assassin!

Look in your heart, Tommy!

But... but it just looks like so much fun!

 

[matmos]

But... but it just looks like so much fun!

That's not us Tom! I'm praying to you.

 

[Blackmail!]

I didn't suggest otherwise. My philosophy is it takes two to tango.

Agreed.

---

Some INTJs are just like you described them, I would not contradict you, I've meet some.
But many others aren't, are wonderful and fascinating people.

Within every types, you can expect the best and the worst (and the latter is especially true if they take their roles very seriously).

Look for instance at the ENTJs. They are considered as the most agressive, bossy, dreadful type. And yet one of the ENTJs here (->htb) is one of the most interesting, calm and clever poster.

 

[matmos]

Dear "Duke of York"...
Compared to the average INTJ, you were unable to understand or notice flawed logic,

Example of flawed logic:

...This thread is to further the positive interaction between INTJ's and other types, not to close off the INTJ's. If we wanted that, we would just head back to our own forum.

Think about it while you browse MBTI Central. Surely I don't have to spell it out.
Okay I will - the forum does this fine; why have a dedicated thread?

 

[TheLastMohican]

Kiddo, I love you until proven otherwise.

Please don't disappoint.

My thoughts as well.

Although, I've been told that I can't be an INTJ because I'm too 'nice,' too 'chatty,' too 'disorganized,' and too 'creative.' A little disturbing, you know.

I think you are an INTJ. I know I am, and tend to be all of those things just as often as a number of other people of different types. INTJ-ness has more to do with how you think than how you behave.

 

[Motor Jax]

lets forward then, shall we?

 

[Haphazard]

Think about it while you browse MBTI Central. Surely I don't have to spell it out.
Okay I will - the forum does this fine; why have a dedicated thread?

Well, I have a few theories.

Having a thread dedicated to a specific type can help out with one's understanding of that particular type. This could easily become an INTJ Q&A. Having actual INTJs rather than lots and lots of theory could definitely further one's understanding of them.

Otherwise, it could be a thinly veiled attempt at a chat thread. It would create a core clique of primarily INTJs and they would discuss whatever INTJs like to discuss. Other types would peek in, add to the conversation, or merely observe how INTJs act in their natural habitat.

Either way, I do see value in an INTJ-centric thread.

 

[TheLastMohican]

^ Hap, the first paragraph describes my purpose for this thread. I am surprised that some people seem to have misunderstood this.

Banana, I don't see what my earlier post has to do with "faulty logic." I wasn't making a logical argument in the first place. Most of my experience is on the INTJ Forum, where debates break out anywhere and anytime. Maybe they are less frequent here. I figured that the socialization between INTJ's and other types on regular threads would tend towards confrontation, which I am tiring of in this context. (Ahem, Blackmail.)

 

[Haphazard]

^ Hap, the first paragraph describes my purpose for this thread. I am surprised that some people seem to have misunderstood this.

Well, perhaps you should have stated that in your original post? The fact that you suggested it as a retreat suggests more the latter, that this is meant to be an INTJ chat thread, which is superfluous because everyone knows about INTJ-forums now that there's a forum dedicated to criticism of it.

 

[TheLastMohican]

You're right, Hap, I was rather unclear. The whole first post was tongue-in-cheek, and I should have made it known that the its last paragraph was more descriptive of the thread. But now it's out there.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

INTJs are just as single-minded, dismissive, stubborn, unyielding, relentless, and defensive as INFJs. The difference being INFJs value integrity and INTJs value competency.

I agree that both INTJ's and INFJ's can be pretty insufferable. I, myself, often feel insufferable. Though I think most IN*J's mature significantly when they discover the depth of the world beyond Ni and their favored extroverted judging function.

I don't know if all INTJ's value competency more than integrity, though. Most do, perhaps, but I find that both are amazingly important, and they tend to support each other. Integrity is the ideal starting point, in my opinion. Any ideas conceived out of a lack of integrity will be of a diminished value. Even if they are incredibly brilliant and well conceived. Integrity tends to dispel some of the more ego-driven aspects of one's personality. In my opinion, those egoistic things are little more than obstacles to be overcome... so I'd say it's quite the asset, for nearly everyone. A large aspect of integrity (IMO) is about being more honest and humble than the average person. This in itself eliminates like 70% of our self perpetuated BS.

Likewise, integrity without competency has no voice or means of expression. It simply exists in and of itself, without furthering itself. So while just having integrity serves some good... it needs some level of self mastery, in order to be applied to it's full potential. Though how much self-mastery is hard to say. Perhaps this is one of those cases where less is more? At least, I don't think the balance is easy to maintain. In my case, competency can have a way of side-sweeping integrity. Competency can have a way of presenting itself to me as more immediately important... even in times where it very much isn't.

I think it's better to just demand both . Integrity is good in determining an aim or goal that is in tune with one's values. Foundations based on integrity strike me as more appealing than foundations based on competency. Pure competency just strikes me as inherently aimless. It's more of an objective tool... it can be applied to anything. But I feel the application is what's important. Sure, a raw form of competency can be very appealing, for all it has the power to achieve... but it has to aspire towards the "right" sort of achievements, or it's all somewhat worthless. Integrity offers a more holistic sort of guidance. Logic can ultimately be lacking in describing the human element... and we're all humans first and foremost (hmm, I sort of sound like an F, here).

We don't always want what we think we "should" want. Especially in the case of thinkers, I would think. I am, unfortunately, very familiar with convincing myself I don't want something when I very much do want it. I'm sure lots of thinkers can identify with this. In this case, I can be "competent" at discerning the logical path I maybe should want to follow. But I'm often "incompetent" when it comes to recognizing the path I truly do want to follow.

A person purely motivated by competency could be quite ruthless. While ruthlessness holds it's appeal, it often has a way of losing sight of the bigger picture. I think a person should strive towards tranquility of the soul, genuine compassion, and clear ethics, first... to make sure they're not committing themselves to the "wrong" goal.

Though, to be honest, sometimes I think I'm an INFJ.... in many ways, I'd actually rather be one.

In either case, I seem to have a greater affinity for the human-element than most INTJ's. Whether that's indicative of a feeling preference, I have not yet decided.

 

[Kiddo]

I must say, umop_3pisdn, INTJs such as yourself are redeeming of the whole type in my eyes.

 

[TheLastMohican]

Let's be brutally honest. I've checked many times the INTJ forum, and the least I can say is that you always were the odd one. You didn't look at all like other so-called INTJs:

You are very emotional, INTJ's aren't.
You are very egocentric and irrational. INTJs aren't.
You are very religious. The vast majority of INTJs aren't.
You take every criticism as a personal offense. Most INTJs don't care.

Compared to the average INTJ, you were unable to understand or notice flawed logic, and you never were aware how easy it was to emotionally manipulate you, since most of your answers simply were out of any proportions, out of context.

So now are you obsessed with me?

I probably am not typical on the INTJ Forum; clearly I post more than average, and it seems I am more tolerant of NF's. Overall my letter preferences are weaker than most of the INTJ's, with the highest being 88.

Why do you say I am "very emotional?" I do exaggerate my emotions when posting, especially in humorous situations, but I do not recall getting emotionally involved in much of anything. Examples?

"Egocentric" is somewhat true, but that is an INTJ trait, at least considering the dictionary definition. Introverts in general tend towards that. Did you mean to say "egotistical?"

"Irrational" is a blunt insult, especially to an NT. I would like to see an example of me being irrational.

My religiosity doesn't seem to apply anywhere. There are religious INTJ's, so why should that indicate that I am not an INTJ?

Your statement about criticisms doesn't add up. I only take something as a personal offense if it is untrue. If the criticism is true, I do not take offense; I act to improve the point of the criticism. And what do you mean by not caring? INTJ's will easily ignore things they consider preposterous, but will care about some things, especially those that they consider worthy of attention due to truth or socially damaging falsehood.


More later.

 

[Kiddo]

Okay, Blackmail. I have to ask...what type do you think DOY is?

Also, a question to Duke of York. Why the hell would you pick a username that could be shortened to DOY? :rof1: