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[MBTI General] The "Bugzapper" Effect

Engineer

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Well, I think you can discount the INFP from your study as a statistical error. If she was that messed up it had nothing to do with you, and you should simply look at your reasons for staying with her.

Unfortunately I can't give the specific advice I would if I was an rl friend of yours. I do think cor is spot on with a lot of what they posted.

Continue being yourself. Some women do appreciate the more reserved types of men (all the more mystery for us to unravel!) and one will stumble across you someday in the future. Maybe tomorrow, maybe 6 months from now... The best you can do is to take care of you so you will be prepared for that day.

P.s. I is sorry for sneaking into this thread, but I wanted to give you some encouragement.

Also, thank you, Saturned. It really is nice to know that there are some good ENFPs out there. :)
 

Coriolis

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The INFP (first case) seems like she was being driven by her own personal troubles. You might be able to learn more from the ENFP. If I were in your shoes, I would corner her and force the issue. Lay your own cards on the table: what you have observed, why you are confused. Make it clear that you are not criticizing or trying to change her behavior at all, you just want to understand her motivations and how she sees you. The closest I came to this was with a likely ISTP I dated many years ago. I could sense a loss of interest after a couple of months and asked directly: how do you see our relationship now? The answer was basically, "I see you more as a friend; we have fun together, but I guess I'm just not romantically into you." It was actually a relief. I was reassured, it was not me or anything I had done/not done. We remained on friendly terms which was fortunate, since we worked together.
 

Coriolis

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Verily, I say unto ye,
marry not an engineer.
For an engineer is a strange being
and possessed of many evils.

Yea, he speaketh always in parables
which he calleth formulae.
He wieldeth a big stick
which he calleth a slide rule.
And he hath only one bible,
a handbook.

He thinketh only of strains and stresses,
and without end of thermodynamics.
He showeth always a serious aspect
and seemeth not to know how to smile.
He picketh his seat in a car by the springs thereof
and not by the damsels.

Neither does he know a waterfall
except by its horsepower,
Nor a sunset
except that he must turn on the light,
Nor a damsel
except by her weight.

Always he carrieth his books with him,
and he entertaineth his sweetheart with steam tables.
Verily, though his damsel expecteth chocolates when he calleth,
She openeth the package to discover samples of iron ore.

Yea, he holdeth her hand
but to measure the friction thereof,
and kisseth her
only to test the viscosity of her lips,
for in his eyes shineth a far away look
that is neither love nor longing,
but a vain attempt to recall formulae.

Even as a boy, he pulleth a girl's hair
but to test its elasticity.
But as a man,
he deviseth different devices.
For he counteth the vibrations of her heartstrings
And seeketh ever to pursue his scientific investigations.

Even his own heart flutterings
he counteth as a measure of fluctuation.
And his marriage is but a
simultaneous equation involving two unknowns.
And yielding diverse results.

Verily, I say unto ye,
marry not an engineer.


(origin unknown)
 

Engineer

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The INFP (first case) seems like she was being driven by her own personal troubles. You might be able to learn more from the ENFP. If I were in your shoes, I would corner her and force the issue. Lay your own cards on the table: what you have observed, why you are confused. Make it clear that you are not criticizing or trying to change her behavior at all, you just want to understand her motivations and how she sees you. The closest I came to this was with a likely ISTP I dated many years ago. I could sense a loss of interest after a couple of months and asked directly: how do you see our relationship now? The answer was basically, "I see you more as a friend; we have fun together, but I guess I'm just not romantically into you." It was actually a relief. I was reassured, it was not me or anything I had done/not done. We remained on friendly terms which was fortunate, since we worked together.

This was actually something I had seriously, seriously considered doing, but I'm still a little wary of it because I don't want to make it seem like I'm hounding her. There's also the minor problem that she's always going somewhere after our mutual classes and uses that as an excuse to delay any meaningful discussion we might have otherwise had. I would love to have a debriefing session, however, so maybe in the near future I'll collect my guts and just do it.
 

Rasofy

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1) Honestly, the ideal relationship would be a serious one, but I'd even settle for a casual short-term one. I'm frankly just tired of being alone for so long.
2) I attempted to ask the INFP, but got a bizarre roundabout answer that did not settle anything whatsoever (plus she was emotionally damaged and had cheated on me twice previously). The ENFP barely acknowledges me in public and will not respond to any electronic methods of communication whatsoever, so that particular option is not viable.
I think you have serious self esteem problems. It is called pseudo self esteem:
trying to compensate for deficiencies; a pretense at a self-confidence and self-respect; the effort to protect self-esteem with denial and evasion, which only results in a further deterioration of self-esteem.
Takes some time to recover the lost self esteem, but the first step is valuing yourself and (subtly) demand people to treat you in conformity. Seriously, chasing a girl that had cheated on you twice? You gotta respect yourself more.
Oh, and you shouldn't need a woman, in first place. That is the worst place to begin. To start, you need to be happy alone. Otherwise, this is what is gonna happen:
1st Initial Attraction (both)
2nd Clinginess (You)
3th Attraction decrease, usually combined with respect decrease (Her)
4th Game over
 

Coriolis

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I think you have serious self esteem problems. It is called pseudo self esteem:

Takes some time to recover the lost self esteem, but the first step is valuing yourself and (subtly) demand people to treat you in conformity. Seriously, chasing a girl that had cheated on you twice? You gotta respect yourself more.
Oh, and you shouldn't need a woman, in first place. That is the worst place to begin. To start, you need to be happy alone. Otherwise, this is what is gonna happen:
1st Initial Attraction (both)
2nd Clinginess (You)
3th Attraction decrease, usually combined with respect decrease (Her)
4th Game over
I doubt Engineer is clingy. I do agree that the sense of "needing" a woman (or a man, for women) is not healthy, and likely to lead to bad decisions/relationships. Not sure he feels this way, either, though he seems to enjoy the companionship.

The idea of self-esteem is a bit more complicated. INTJs usually have strong self-esteem overall, and Engineer seems to be no exception. As some type descriptions say, though, we know what we know and we know what we don't know. Most of us know when it comes to relationships, we are not the competent experts we are in other facets of life. We may thus have low self-esteem or perhaps confidence in this specific area, leading to an attitude of, "why would anyone like/love ME?" I have had this feeling myself from time to time. It quickly disspates, however, when I remind myself that the world is ful of people, many far stranger (and less responsible, intelligent, considerate, etc. etc.) than I am; and that I don't need everyone to like me, just a few people, who must surely exist somewhere. I also have the proof of this, in the friends I do have, and in my own longstanding relationship. When I was Engineer's age, though, I lacked the experience to give me this security.
 

violet_crown

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Hello all. I am back again, this time with a new question and/or discussion opportunity.

Having recently come to understand certain signs and behaviors, I have given up my long-term pursuit of the ENFP I've been on about for awhile now. Seeing as I'm an INTJ, and the "glorious plan" had to be entirely scrapped, I'm sort of at square one again and am currently reviewing the leftovers of previous relationships to establish some form of pattern of failure. In all of them, there seems to be a mysterious point where the woman's interest in me ends-- not really slowly, but all of a sudden, a great drop-off: the bugzapper effect. Things will be going fine one week, the next there's nothing going on at all.

With my INFP ex, this happened after a week, with my ENFP prospect, this happened after a single day, and developed into a downward spiral where I am apparently not allowed to ignore her, but she is allowed to ignore me all she wants. Even recently, girls that seem interested will pull away mysteriously after a couple of days.

What exactly am I doing wrong here? Is my robotic inside just that uninteresting? Am I too cold, too morbid, too awkward? Asking from a stance of genuine curiosity here, not like I'm being emo. I'd like to fix this, as I have been told that I am in the 7.6 to 8.2 range of looks, so having an equally-attractive method of approach would be nice.

As for discussion, has any other NT had this happen to them as well? Is it that we seem a bit too calculating to other people or what? I am honestly confused, since this has happened five times in a row now and is seriously (super-super-cereal, guys) getting old.

Help?

To begin with, it sounds like the girls you're dealing with kind of suck. I can't comment on what you may be doing wrong with the hot/cold phenomenon, because I don't know you that well. I think that dating for NTJs is difficult because it really takes a certain kind of individual to be able to maintain a long-term, intimate relationship with us. You inevitably kiss a lot of frogs (or frogettes) as you're working out exactly who that person is. The fact that most people aren't going to work out for you should be taken as a given. If you think of dating as a process it becomes difficult to view the things that may go wrong as personal failings. There's always someone else out there, and (hopefully) you're constantly learning from your mistakes.

I lol'ed at the mention of the "glorious plan". Our most basic tendancy definitely works against us when it comes to dating. Whether I care to admit it or not, I get fairly attached to my little plans and pet projects. I don't like my agenda to be derailed elsewhere, and am guilty of bringing those feelings into the relationship realm. The problem with that mentality crops up when you've long since recognized that the person's not right for you, but you're so hell-bent on the plan that you become willing to compromise, make excuses, and cling to something that should really be allowed to die. It also generally blows to be wrong. I think the sort of corollary to this idea is the ability to sense something in another person, and holding on as you're waiting for that wonderful thing to emerge when the house is falling down around your ears. That may be a general intuitve thing. It may be more of a woman thing. But I've always seen the two as the same issue--blinding yourself with your own mind's eye.

The last thing I'll suggest is the possibility that you're insecurities about dating may have created a fairly common viscious cycle. You feel bad about self and ability to date--> date women you probably know on some level it won't work out with-->it doesn't work out-->feel bad about ability to date, ect. I don't really know how to resolve this one as I live more or less in the same world. I'm uncertain as to why it moved me, but I know [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] made an interesting post not too long ago about love, what it means to be in love, and what it feels like when you're on the right track. He said something I'd definitely heard before, but in a way that click for me. It might be interesting to you. I'm quoting him here:

uumlau said:
It wasn't easy! Moving forward will be a challenge, too. I have to let go of a lot of the old emotions that I associate with romance (because despite their intensity they have nothing to do with love) and almost start from scratch.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I've been saying for a long while (and not just on your blog). Fortunately, it isn't "almost from scratch." You already know how to love, you just happened to put the "love" label on the wrong thing.

Here's a clue. Love feels like what you feel right before you "fall in love." You feel more you. You feel that you are with someone who makes sense in your life. The "falling in love" and "romance" is the fear of losing that feeling. But the feeling is just the signal that love is present, it isn't love itself.

Have you ever had those times in your life, however brief, where everything just "went right", that you couldn't do anything wrong, that everything right just happened by itself? That's the state of mind you're trying to capture. Doing "not doing." Just being yourself, and being yourself is exactly why everything goes right. Yes, this all maps back to the Tao and the other books I mentioned.

Real love feels "normal," not romantic. The romance is there, the fun is there, the attraction is there, but the fear isn't there. The love "just is." It's a part of what you do and who you are. It's special and important, yes, but it's not as mind-blowing as when you first meet a new love. When something becomes a part of you, a part of your life, it must necessarily "feel normal," otherwise you wouldn't be yourself, and it wouldn't really be love.

Even though I really want to find someone special to share the rest of my life with, I'm starting to think that I might need to simply let that go and date for a bit.

Dating is good. Even better is just meeting people and getting to know them. If you look too hard for love, you won't find it, because you're going to end up disregarding all the "normal" goodness that would fit in your life, and looking for the special goodness that you think represents love, but isn't really love. Just be yourself, learn to become an even better version of yourself by becoming more you, and let your natural qualities shine through. Eventually, you'll find someone (probably several people) who like you just the way you are. Of those, some might even be in appropriate circumstances that something long-term is possible.

Anyways. Hope any of that is helpful to you. Happy hunting, man.
 

Engineer

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I think you have serious self esteem problems. It is called pseudo self esteem:

Takes some time to recover the lost self esteem, but the first step is valuing yourself and (subtly) demand people to treat you in conformity. Seriously, chasing a girl that had cheated on you twice? You gotta respect yourself more.
Oh, and you shouldn't need a woman, in first place. That is the worst place to begin. To start, you need to be happy alone. Otherwise, this is what is gonna happen:
1st Initial Attraction (both)
2nd Clinginess (You)
3th Attraction decrease, usually combined with respect decrease (Her)
4th Game over

I appreciate your concern, but I don't believe that's my situation at all. Perhaps back in my teenage years, it would have been true, but I've had enough experience to know that women like men who are detached and independent.
The INFP situation was one where she was quite emotionally distraught, and had just come out of an abusive relationship with another guy. For her sake, I did not want to slam the door on her, but attempt to be as forgiving and loving as possible. Of course, even that has its limits, which is why it ultimately ended.
No disrespect intended when I say this: I've been living alone for over two decades. I'm quite comfortable being single, thanks. I have not, and likely never will, predicate my existence on being in a relationship, and I certainly did not say that I needed a woman, merely that I'd like one. To be frank, it's become rather old, being by myself. I'd like to see what a successful relationship has to offer, change up the way it's been for awhile, you know?

I have great confidence, as a matter of fact. The one complaint I get from people who don't know me well is that I'm unbelievably arrogant. People who've worked with me for awhile know I'm only like that when I actually know what I'm doing, so they respect it.

Thank you anyways for your concern and advice.

Oh, also...
I believe [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION]'s post sums up my position quite concisely (almost poetically, I'd say as well). Thanks, Cor. :)

To begin with, it sounds like the girls you're dealing with kind of suck. I can't comment on what you may be doing wrong with the hot/cold phenomenon, because I don't know you that well. I think that dating for NTJs is difficult because it really takes a certain kind of individual to be able to maintain a long-term, intimate relationship with us. You inevitably kiss a lot of frogs (or frogettes) as you're working out exactly who that person is. The fact that most people aren't going to work out for you should be taken as a given. If you think of dating as a process it becomes difficult to view the things that may go wrong as personal failings. There's always someone else out there, and (hopefully) you're constantly learning from your mistakes.

Oddly enough, I agree... My problem is that I forget that one kind of super-crazy person that's right for INTJs is quite rare, and will just go after what I think will work in the short term. I go for chemistry rather than assessment. But at the same time, I've got a neurotic list of reconnaissance on each potential subject listing pros and cons of each, so maybe I'm waffling between extremes. I'd definitely say I learn from mistakes. Makes all those failures mean something if you learn from them.

I lol'ed at the mention of the "glorious plan". Our most basic tendancy definitely works against us when it comes to dating. Whether I care to admit it or not, I get fairly attached to my little plans and pet projects. I don't like my agenda to be derailed elsewhere, and am guilty of bringing those feelings into the relationship realm. The problem with that mentality crops up when you've long since recognized that the person's not right for you, but you're so hell-bent on the plan that you become willing to compromise, make excuses, and cling to something that should really be allowed to die. It also generally blows to be wrong. I think the sort of corollary to this idea is the ability to sense something in another person, and holding on as you're waiting for that wonderful thing to emerge when the house is falling down around your ears. That may be a general intuitve thing. It may be more of a woman thing. But I've always seen the two as the same issue--blinding yourself with your own mind's eye.

I feel like this is what drives my relentless attitude towards keeping the relationship alive. If I can take responsibility for it, I can fix it, and it won't break. I factor out that other people are nigh-impossible to control via INTJ-schemes, and suddenly -blam- it blindsides me. You are absolutely right in the bolded text. Absolutely.

The last thing I'll suggest is the possibility that you're insecurities about dating may have created a fairly common viscious cycle. You feel bad about self and ability to date--> date women you probably know on some level it won't work out with-->it doesn't work out-->feel bad about ability to date, ect.

To some degree. The problem I face is that the girls I'm interested in usually turn out to be absolutely crazy, and I'm having a hard time realizing that from surface analysis alone. The cycle is pretty spot on, though. Thanks for the uumlau quote, as well! I knew there was a reason he was one of my favorite people on the forums...
 

mujigay

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The fact that you're making a "project" of these girls, and constructing elaborate plans to win them over may be a problem in and of itself.
 

violet_crown

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Oddly enough, I agree... My problem is that I forget that one kind of super-crazy person that's right for INTJs is quite rare, and will just go after what I think will work in the short term. I go for chemistry rather than assessment. But at the same time, I've got a neurotic list of reconnaissance on each potential subject listing pros and cons of each, so maybe I'm waffling between extremes. I'd definitely say I learn from mistakes. Makes all those failures mean something if you learn from them.

That's always the balance, isn't it? I think it takes an attraction that knocks an NTJ on their ass to be willing to go through all the ridiculous hoops that dating/intimacy/relationships require. Even if you're madly in love with someone the objective part never goes away. You see them for what they are, but something always gets lost in translation when it comes to your own actions. Feelings are just like...basically unhelpful when it comes to knowing how to function. Shenanigans I tell ya!


The problem I face is that the girls I'm interested in usually turn out to be absolutely crazy, and I'm having a hard time realizing that from surface analysis alone.

Everybody's crazy. If you get involved with someone and a little crazy doesn't start showing up within the first couple of months, you need to back away slowly as they're probably, like, legit crazy. Like, Ted Bundy crazy. From what I gather, the best you can do is to find someone whose level of crazy is manageable and meshes well with your own.
 

ceecee

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That's always the balance, isn't it? I think it takes an attraction that knocks an NTJ on their ass to be willing to go through all the ridiculous hoops that dating/intimacy/relationships require. Even if you're madly in love with someone the objective part never goes away. You see them for what they are, but something always gets lost in translation when it comes to your own actions. Feelings are just like...basically unhelpful when it comes to knowing how to function. Shenanigans I tell ya!

Soooo true.
 
G

Ginkgo

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The fact that you're making a "project" of these girls, and constructing elaborate plans to win them over may be a problem in and of itself.

I don't know man. That's just kind of what guys do. They strategize, plot, and figure out how to get what they want. Figuring out what to expect in a relationship may not necessarily result in him completely compromising his hide. Even if he's making a project out of it, projects have the potential to be mutually beneficial.
 

Engineer

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The fact that you're making a "project" of these girls, and constructing elaborate plans to win them over may be a problem in and of itself.

I don't know man. That's just kind of what guys do. They strategize, plot, and figure out how to get what they want. Figuring out what to expect in a relationship may not necessarily result in him completely compromising his hide. Even if he's making a project out of it, projects have the potential to be mutually beneficial.
If I'm interpreting him correctly, I believe he means I'm overthinking and not letting it come naturally. Forcing is a bad idea, and I've been trying to ramp down the time-pressured parts of my designs. INTJs can't help making plans, but trying to map out a relationship is never a good idea. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your post. I could be very wrong. You are both correct to some extent, I feel.

That's always the balance, isn't it? I think it takes an attraction that knocks an NTJ on their ass to be willing to go through all the ridiculous hoops that dating/intimacy/relationships require. Even if you're madly in love with someone the objective part never goes away. You see them for what they are, but something always gets lost in translation when it comes to your own actions. Feelings are just like...basically unhelpful when it comes to knowing how to function. Shenanigans I tell ya!
This is literally the most apt explanation of the INTJ-romance conundrum I've heard today. The line between rational/planning and irrational/rushing becomes unbelievably blurred and it's extremely difficult to make any sort of decent decision without being compromised. At least we're more aware of it, though (at least in my experience, we are). My ENTP roommate just doesn't get that emotions can bleed through to the thinking side, and he's been having a really rough time with his recent breakup.

Everybody's crazy. If you get involved with someone and a little crazy doesn't start showing up within the first couple of months, you need to back away slowly as they're probably, like, legit crazy. Like, Ted Bundy crazy. From what I gather, the best you can do is to find someone whose level of crazy is manageable and meshes well with your own.
Agreed. I've decided it's going to take a special kind of crazy lady to settle down with a semi-detached, calculating, blunt, and socially-awkward professional killer. She's out there somewhere, but damn it-- I'm going have to sift through this entire beach of rhinestones to find that particular diamond.
 

Coriolis

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If I'm interpreting him correctly, I believe he means I'm overthinking and not letting it come naturally. Forcing is a bad idea, and I've been trying to ramp down the time-pressured parts of my designs. INTJs can't help making plans, but trying to map out a relationship is never a good idea. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your post. I could be very wrong. You are both correct to some extent, I feel.

This is literally the most apt explanation of the INTJ-romance conundrum I've heard today. The line between rational/planning and irrational/rushing becomes unbelievably blurred and it's extremely difficult to make any sort of decent decision without being compromised. At least we're more aware of it, though (at least in my experience, we are). My ENTP roommate just doesn't get that emotions can bleed through to the thinking side, and he's been having a really rough time with his recent breakup.
You can't stop the rational assessment and planning processes Trying to do so is just another way to stop being yourself - never a good idea. You can keep that process and its results to yourself, however, and make room for the spontaneous, "natural", feeling part to operate in parallel. In short, leaving room for the other person to affect the relationship, and for you to respond in suit.

Letting the line between the two become blurred will cause confusion, but a balance can still be maintained. We cannot control the whole relationship, because we are responsible for only half of it. We can, however, know our own limits and values, and where we are willing to compromise, and where not. Keep your vision as a possibility in the background, allowing for likely permutations, and evaluate day by day based upon actual evidence, both subjective (how you feel about the relationship) and objective (observable facts). I think of it as making a decision piecewise, a bit like the crude method of adding up the area under different segments of a curve instead of calculating a proper integral from the function (especially useful when you don't know the function!).
 
G

Ginkgo

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If I'm interpreting him correctly, I believe he means I'm overthinking and not letting it come naturally. Forcing is a bad idea, and I've been trying to ramp down the time-pressured parts of my designs. INTJs can't help making plans, but trying to map out a relationship is never a good idea. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your post. I could be very wrong. You are both correct to some extent, I feel.

I agree. Not everything goes as planned, so living in the moment of the relationship would probably alleviate any frustration. Then again, if you plan things out but don't like... steamroll them with some feeling that "THIS MUST HAPPEN MY WAY", then you could manage it. If you do plan then you're probably going to have to ask many questions and gather information about what's around the corner. I hope your romantic interests will be open to that eventually, but in all likelihood you're probably going to have to ease into it blind and take what opportunities you can when they arise. I'm being vague but hopefully you get it.
 

ceecee

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If I'm interpreting him correctly, I believe he means I'm overthinking and not letting it come naturally. Forcing is a bad idea, and I've been trying to ramp down the time-pressured parts of my designs. INTJs can't help making plans, but trying to map out a relationship is never a good idea. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your post. I could be very wrong. You are both correct to some extent, I feel.

As an INTJ who can barely function without plans, I understand this very well. I also think this is one of the key reasons we can be so craptacular with relationships. The one thing I did is make sure I brought my ENFJ on board with my "vision" of the relationship route and not keep it to myself like I tended to do. I showed him I was willing to make adjustments to that and that his vision had to be as important as mine but it didn't have to be exactly the same as mine and I was good with that.

I don't think even trying to stop overthinking is a good idea. It won't happen. You can only keep it in perspective. You can't map it. You can only turn the sails into the wind and hopefully your partner has the rudder and vice versa.
 

Engineer

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You can't stop the rational assessment and planning processes Trying to do so is just another way to stop being yourself - never a good idea. You can keep that process and its results to yourself, however, and make room for the spontaneous, "natural", feeling part to operate in parallel. In short, leaving room for the other person to affect the relationship, and for you to respond in suit.

Letting the line between the two become blurred will cause confusion, but a balance can still be maintained. We cannot control the whole relationship, because we are responsible for only half of it. We can, however, know our own limits and values, and where we are willing to compromise, and where not. Keep your vision as a possibility in the background, allowing for likely permutations, and evaluate day by day based upon actual evidence, both subjective (how you feel about the relationship) and objective (observable facts). I think of it as making a decision piecewise, a bit like the crude method of adding up the area under different segments of a curve instead of calculating a proper integral from the function (especially useful when you don't know the function!).

That sounds like excellent advice. I just need to actually step back and look the relationship over objectively from time to time, especially before I get lost in the whole "IT'S OK GUYS I CAN STILL FIX IT" mentality. Combining the two is going to be difficult, but with a bit of effort I'm sure it's a habit that can easily be learned.

I agree. Not everything goes as planned, so living in the moment of the relationship would probably alleviate any frustration. Then again, if you plan things out but don't like... steamroll them with some feeling that "THIS MUST HAPPEN MY WAY", then you could manage it. If you do plan then you're probably going to have to ask many questions and gather information about what's around the corner. I hope your romantic interests will be open to that eventually, but in all likelihood you're probably going to have to ease into it blind and take what opportunities you can when they arise. I'm being vague but hopefully you get it.

I love doing the questions bit. Makes me feel like I'm a detective... and they don't know that I'm getting information from them! Ha! Subtle information gathering (at least, I think it's subtle... some rare people know what I'm up to and that kinda weirds me out). I think I get what you're saying. Some days it's best to trust the Force rather than the targeting computer.

As an INTJ who can barely function without plans, I understand this very well. I also think this is one of the key reasons we can be so craptacular with relationships. The one thing I did is make sure I brought my ENFJ on board with my "vision" of the relationship route and not keep it to myself like I tended to do. I showed him I was willing to make adjustments to that and that his vision had to be as important as mine but it didn't have to be exactly the same as mine and I was good with that.

I don't think even trying to stop overthinking is a good idea. It won't happen. You can only keep it in perspective. You can't map it. You can only turn the sails into the wind and hopefully your partner has the rudder and vice versa.

My problem is that I can't usually get as far into the relationship as to feel comfortable being that honest with my partner. It comes across as a bit too evil mastermind/creeper to some people... I like the last part there, though. Gotta roll with what it is-- do the best I can to plot my course using the winds available to me.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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sp/sx
That sounds like excellent advice. I just need to actually step back and look the relationship over objectively from time to time, especially before I get lost in the whole "IT'S OK GUYS I CAN STILL FIX IT" mentality. Combining the two is going to be difficult, but with a bit of effort I'm sure it's a habit that can easily be learned.
It is not that hard, once you get into the habit, though it is best done when you are alone. Experience and enjoy whatever feelings, hopefully positive, the relationship engenders, but when they have settled a bit, recap events from the perspective of the proverbial fly on the wall. Also take note of things that make you feel uncomfortable, even if they seem trivial. These can be lost in the noise of the good experiences, and you can start deliberately ignoring them to keep things going, but they may turn out to be important. Don't make them into more than they are, but don't sugar coat them, either. Just examine to be sure nothing is there that violates What Must Not Be Compromised.

My problem is that I can't usually get as far into the relationship as to feel comfortable being that honest with my partner. It comes across as a bit too evil mastermind/creeper to some people... I like the last part there, though. Gotta roll with what it is-- do the best I can to plot my course using the winds available to me.
You can share the vision with a girl eventually, but if you do it too soon, it might easily turn out as you say, or just plain overwhelm her. As you get to know each other better, and mean more to each other, you can let her into it more gently and gradually. (A related aside: my SO had an excellent stereo system when we started dating. I had been about to upgrade my cheap, old one but decided to hold off since, if we stayed together, I wouldn't need one. I revealed this part of the vision only after we had lived together for almost a year!)
 

Rex

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Jul 28, 2010
Messages
600
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INTJ
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Interesting.

I guess you will over time figure out the girls. What types that are unstable and so on.

And btw don`t stress too hard. it makes it worse. been there done that. i think you where reading the posts i made when girls where in my focus.

But regardless of sucsess.. it is usually extremely interesting and a big learning experience.
 

ceecee

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Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
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8w9
My problem is that I can't usually get as far into the relationship as to feel comfortable being that honest with my partner. It comes across as a bit too evil mastermind/creeper to some people... I like the last part there, though. Gotta roll with what it is-- do the best I can to plot my course using the winds available to me.

Right but I agree with Coriolis, you can't do this too soon. As time goes on in a relationship, you can disclose this AND ask what her vision is. I always did this with my ENFJ, although he was less likely to have the detailed plan that I did. The bad thing about that kind of planning is when things veer off somewhat, in my head I go... this is FUCKING UP MY MASTERPIECE!!! Then I quickly grab it all back and put it into perspective.
 
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