[INTJ] INTJ sister.

[zarc]

I began writing about how I've dealt with my INTJ sis and whatnot but I must dash for a bit....as she's the one making me and standing behind me in a (ahh, she's ordering me to take that out and was even grabbing me in an attempt to delete what I'd wrote! ) threatening manner. She's upset but not at me! (though, now at me a bit! )

Mind you, we are extremely close and I adore her as well as all my INTJ kinsmen. Even when they are bothersome! Perhaps, especially when so!

So, I'm afraid I shall refrain for a while with my response, rainfall. =/ Hopefully others will continue to aid you as some already have.

 

[elfinchilde]

lol. DD, another protracted response. Conciseness, my dear.

thanks for helping with the clarification.

Yes. The use of parentheses denote a subpoint/digression within the point. i.e., cancel out the parentheses to read the main sentence.

But the brother-in-law was obviously a sticking point for rainfall, hence there is a (secondary) need to address it. The first being the issue with his sister. Thus my subsequent lines outlining a conceivable approach to take towards conflict resolution, via determining his own needs (raise self awareness first, rather than reacting in an emotional haze).

Agree with bananatrombone: rainfall, because all of us are just outsiders, we do not know the full complexity of your situation. Hence, all we're giving are stabs in the dark. So for yourself: it'd perhaps do you better if you were to pick pointers from here, rather than attempting wholesale application?

The summary for me is this: The situation has already occured. Hence, rather than focusing on fault finding, it is perhaps more prudent to focus on conflict resolution?

Let us know how it goes, as it goes.

 

[RDF]

An assumption seems to be developing hear that Rainfall is in someway at fault ["Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home..."]. Why say it if it's not the case?

Shall we allow Rainfall to allude to any extenuating circumstance before writing him off as a schizotypal loser?

Some behaviour is intolerable whatever the cause or however much the victim *deserves* it. Personally, I cannot think of one reason that indemnifies a bully.

Wandering is of course correct, nothing worse than shooting in the dark. The issues may be complex but abusive bahaviour is inexcusable - irrespective of the complexities.

I see this as a brainstorming exercise. The OP describes a situation, and the responses provide some possibilities for why the situation exists and/or how to address it.

I mentioned the possibility that Rainfall's living at home might be a complicating factor. In a brainstorming exercise, everything's fair game. In turn, Rainfall is certainly welcome to reappear and provide more input, guidance, or instruction (rule out certain approaches, clarify his living situation, etc.).

Hopefully there is no blanket condemnation here of either Rainfall or his sister. Sometimes one approach will grab people's attention and people will become focused on that in the thread. But again, it's Rainfall's thread. If it gets too far off-track, Rainfall can always reappear and steer it back in a more profitable direction by providing some clarification. [shrugs shoulders]

 

[proteanmix]

lol. DD, another protracted response. Conciseness, my dear.

thanks for helping with the clarification.

Yes. The use of parentheses denote a subpoint/digression within the point. i.e., cancel out the parentheses to read the main sentence.

But the brother-in-law was obviously a sticking point for rainfall, hence there is a (secondary) need to address it. The first being the issue with his sister. Thus my subsequent lines outlining a conceivable approach to take towards conflict resolution, via determining his own needs (raise self awareness first, rather than reacting in an emotional haze)...

I think the parents are a more important secondary issue than the brother-in-law. The brother is easily avoided but the parents and sister aren't.

 

[Wandering]

lol. DD, another protracted response. Conciseness, my dear.

*snort* Conciseness and DD don't go together

***

I see this as a brainstorming exercise. The OP describes a situation, and the responses provide some possibilities for why the situation exists and/or how to address it.

I mentioned the possibility that Rainfall's living at home might be a complicating factor. In a brainstorming exercise, everything's fair game. In turn, Rainfall is certainly welcome to reappear and provide more input, guidance, or instruction (rule out certian approaches, clarify his living situation, etc.).

Ne vs Ni But since Rainfall is NP, the brainstorming approach is probably perfectly appropriate.

 

[elfinchilde]

^ Yeps. will definitely concur with that. edit: i mean to proteanmix's point about the parents.

If i'm not mistaken, it's probably an entire mass of mess within rainfall now, such that all the trigger points seem to be flashing, and he may not be able to differentiate real cause from secondary causes (am speaking personally from own experience here. not sure if it applies tho? ). So yes, the first thing to do is to cool down, and to focus on identifying and prioritising the triggers.

Then to delineate the boundaries of what is acceptable, what is not; what he can give, what he expects in return; what is non-negotiable.

In conflict resolution, it is logic of emotions that apply. The protagonist must be able to first detach, so that he can see clear (esp for an intp; as we tend to get very emotionally vested: the implode til you explode scenario ). It's tough, but doable.

 

[Totenkindly]

My basic thoughts.

1. Sister's type: Definitely Te at work, and I would say either ENTJ, INTJ, or ESTJ. I don't feel comfortable going further than that.

2. I can see why PM might have thought Elfie was blaming the husband (EC seemed to excuse the sister's behavior when she said, "[the sister] is likely feeling somewhat inadequate about herself (ESTJ as a husband--likely domineering..." etc). I actually picked up on that too... but I don't think EC meant it that way; ESTJs are definitely capable of what she described. Still, my opinion is that the sis is a world-class you-know-what and I wouldn't excuse her behavior regardless.

3. EC certainly spent LESS time talking about the husband than Rainfall did in the OP. So I don't think EC focused on the husband, she probably gave more time proportionally to the sister than Rainfall did. And the "INxx" jibe was out of the blue and unnecessary in this particular situation, I don't think type bias had anything to do with EC's post here.

4. FL offered some good boundary advice. And I concur: Rainfall should make sure he is not intruding on someone else's boundaries, which would have given tacit permission for his family to act so poorly. (Note: Their behavior is not his fault, it is THEIRS -- but if he respects their boundaries, then he has credibility to draw his own and defend them and they'll have no excuse.)

5. The parents MIGHT tacitly be letting the sister run rampant on Rainfall. It is definitely one scenario -- they don't want to directly confront him about things they don't like, but they'll passive-aggressively condone the sister's rude behavior. Another excuse to get those boundaries figured out.

6. Rainfall, your sister is your sister so it sucks to have to defend yourself against her. Regardless of her reasons and the things going on in her life, she's bad for you and ends up being abusive and detrimental to your mental/emotional health. i don't think you need to chew her out or attack her... but I think you are well within your rights to tell her as much -- that the way she relates to you has a negative impact on your well-being -- and you would like to keep formal distance there until things change. If she doesn't like it, then perhaps she'd be willing to regulate her behavior towards you a little better...? You can tell your parents as much too, so they know where you stand.

7. They might disagree with you. Another reason to get your "own life" in place where you are not dependent on them. As long as you are dependent, you can't draw the boundaries you need. If you're independent, then you don't need them to react in any particular way; you can let them decide, and meanwhile stick to your own druthers.

In any case, your sister right now sounds like a world-class bitch, whatever her type is (sorry, I guess I'm in non-flex mode recently -- I just can't excuse that sort of behavior at the moment). I hope she figures out what she wants out of life and what sort of relationship she really wants with you, and maybe starts negotiating a little more for something more beneficial to you both. If you need the space from her to keep your sanity, don't let her shortchange you. There's a time to flex and a time to firm up the boundaries.

 

[Night]

You humans are curious: both in custom and in play.

I enjoy you.

 

[RDF]

You humans are curious: both in custom and in play.

I enjoy you.

Dr. Doom?

 

[matmos]

You humans are curious: both in custom and in play.

I enjoy you.

Dad?

 

[Wandering]

You humans are curious: both in custom and in play.

I enjoy you.

Mr Spock?

 

[Night]

Dr. Doom?

Dad?

Mr Spock?

Case in point - brilliant posts, all three.

Cheers!

 

[elfinchilde]

^ Night, in inimicable style.

 

[lastrailway]

I think you'd first have to think what you want from your relationship with your sister. To improve it, to maintain a minimal, typical relationship, to deal with her even if this means to destroy whatever relation you have?
From the way you're picturing her, I'd say that, weren't she your sister, you'd totally avoid this person. Which makes me think that you should give up trying to have any relation with her and treat her like some random acquaintance. A sibling has to respect you just as every other person does, and a sibling that does not respect you should be treated as you treat every other person who doesn't.
Now if you are looking for advice on how to built a good relationship with an INTJ, hopefully somebody else could offer you some. My advice is that you really don't have to take all that stuff from her or from anybody.
For the record, I barely talk to my siblings, except for my two sisters. I really don't feel I've lost anything from cutting the rest of them out of my life.

 

[cafe]

I appreciate the fact the many families can have strange (to outsiders) often complex ways of interacting. With respect, though, you are missing the point. Whether Rainfall lives in a shotgun shack or a middle class suburb is largely irrelevant. His issue is with his sister's behaviour towards him. He does not like being the butt of her ire or being belittled. It maybe his sister has issues with him! Maybe. But as we don't know, there's no point in guessing.

In the UK there is a code of conduct that prison officers must treat all prisoners with *respect* - however heinous the crime. If a murderer is deemed good enough to show respect to then maybe so is Rainfall. Even for the (alleged - but as yet unsubstanciated) crime of loafing around! I know the US penal system is not so forgiving...

If - if - there are issues with "overcrowding" at Rainfall's gaff, I would suggest a reasonable way of dealing with it is to talk Not construct some elaborate scenario to get rid of someone because you feel guilty about asking them to leave.

Exactly. What she is doing is not okay. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn't tolerate that among my children. Not everyone is a mature/clear communicator and I am assuming that is the case with his sister. Maybe she's just a witch with no redeeming values whatsoever, maybe she has some growing up to do but has a valid point somewhere in her immature head. Who knows? It doesn't hurt to explore the possibilities. No one here can change her behavior to something more constructive and acceptable. Rainfall can't either. He can only determine his own behavior. Sometimes exploring why someone is behaving a certain way can help us decide the best way to act ourselves.

 

[creativeRhino]

My Sis is an ENFP - technically meant to be a good counterbalance to each other.... but don't forget there's the potential for powerplay with in families and good old sibling rivalry.
When we were kids she asserted her "big sisterdom" on me, and I fought back.

We are very different. Her life tends to get very messy and drama filled - and she is very emotional about everything. Nothing "works out".

She thinks I have a perfect life (even though my husband died a few years back) because I get things to "work out".

Yet I am the butt of all the jokes in her family - I am the "mad aunt"??

Really it is a clash of styles with a very lethal dose of good old sibling rivalry. We want different things, think/feel differently so the rivalry is at "cross purposes". If we were similar in style and desires then we'd be in outright "competition" from her point of view. I don't compare myself to her but measure my progress/behaviour against my own standards, but she compares her accomplishments/material status to mine....

She had really gotten all the things she wanted, but they don't "make her happy", I tend to be way less emotional so I can see the good that can be found in not getting what I *think* I want. And that is really all about her being and F and me a T. We have overcome most of our needlessly frustrating interaction issues and accept each others different styles.

But what your sister does sounds more like powerplay than an INTJ thing - but of course it would be coloured by temperament!

Hey, my sister is 50 and I am just a couple of years younger. I always thought we'd grow out of it.

 

[Chemgrl82]

Honestly, I don't think there's any winning in this situation. I think the best thing you can do is just lay low until you can get out of the house altogether. She is probably set in her mindset with you, and we all know you can't change anyone... only how you react to them. Normally, I'm all about working things out and facing them head on, but it just doesn't seem right here. I think you should just keep it as simple as possible and move on ASAP. You don't need anyone in your life like that, and it's really not worth the energy to try and figure it out any further... it will probably only do more damage to everyone involved. Sorry you've got this to deal with this. This too shall pass.

 

[white]

Makes me angry to even think about it, and that's why I probably can't figure this on my own.

Let's see.

I got an INTJ sister. I used to tolerate her, but I can't say exactly that it was always pleasurable. When I would hang out with her, I always had to kind of watch what I had to say, so as not to say anything too "weird" or too "stupid" because she would instantly label it as so. Another thing, the belittlement, that really got on my nerves. Whenever I would hang out with her, at least once during the hang out she would rub it into my face that I'm a drop out (she was in college, so I guess that made her feel superior?). Another thing, she's got an ESTJ husband. I respect him, and I respect her choice, but I feel awful when near the guy. I worked for him, and every little single fucking thing I did slightly wrong was like a personal fucking insult to him. I wanted to murder the bastard. I mean, if you got the coffee the wrong size, it was the end of the mother fucking world. He would talk about it for half hour, as if I just murdered half of the human population. It was a BIG DEAL. So, I wanted to pretty much avoid the guy.

In any case, I begun seeing her less and less. Not so much by conscious choice. I guess the desire to call her wasn't there anymore. I need to get up on my feet and do stuff, and seeing her only made me weaker since she busted my balls, rubbing in my faults and weaknesses. It only made me feel more and more insignificant, weak, unable, incapable, broken. Thing is, being the loser I am, I still lived with parents. So she would come over to see parents, and if I hung around she would rub the school thing in even harder and I could see it made her happy to do so. And I just sat there, like a pussy, and took it all, feigning that it did not matter to me. The worst part was, when eventually she said that "my opinion does not matter, since you can't even finish high school". I could not even speak up at the table anymore, because everyone would politely wait till I was through and then pretend like I said nothing and say something like "Is the tea ready?" and move on.

I just stopped coming out of my room when she came over. I didn't need this shit. Then, I was constantly belittled by her whenever I did the mistake of actually going out of the room for something. "You've locked yourself into that room and you would not even see your own sister!". Right, I was the bad guy, because "it did not matter to me" when she came over. Catch 22, really.

But, I only had to handle her few times a month though. It was bearable, and I could slowly started thinking that maybe I was still a human being. However, this all changed when she got pregnant. She quit college for now, and she and her husband and my parents bought a house. Now, she would visit them almost every day or every second day. I just try to stay in my room when she comes over. Actually, I just go to sleep because her presence instantly makes me feel that I am the lowest scum and should just die. I instantly feel tired and drained, and for few hours I am incapable of any activity that would better my situation, so I just sleep.

This could be just my mistake of perception, but I have a sense that she feels miserable when I do good and great when I do bad. When she, who was in a fucking chess school her entire childhood, won a game of chess against me, who played the fucking game only 20 times in his entire life, she jumped up unable to contain her pride and glee. I just kind of sat there like "It's just a game, right?" thought I.

One day she stormed into my room, basically, and told me not to date a certain person. I was threatened that if I did do something, it would be taken up with everyone and the whole thing would basically turn into a shitstorm. Being drunk, and sort of merry and happy at the moment, I just said yeah, okay. But later I realized that I felt even more castrated since I wasn't even allowed to make that decision for myself. [Although, it was a bad decision, I still think I should be allowed to make bad calls on my own...]

I ignored her from that point on and never came to visit her anymore at all. She got mad at that. She said she "wanted a brother who would come visit her, would be interested in how she's doing" etc. And she probably is, she probably really wants me to be friendly with her.

I don't know, I'm sure I have my flaws. Maybe I'm failing to see this the proper way. Maybe I am the bad guy here. Regardless, I have to build up from scratch and begin my own life. I need to start taking care of myself. I think that interaction with this person brings a level of complexity that I am not capable of handling in a suitable manner, and I think that this person has negative impact on me. She maybe a well meaning person who's just got caught up in her own game of acting like she's tough, but I do not think I have the resources to deal with that in a mature manner. I'm barely starting to take care of myself, and I honestly don't think I can handle this as well. Fuck, I don't wanna be mean and cut her out, but fuck, I don't wanna be nice and live with my parents and her for the rest of my life.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Here's to hoping she would not come across to this page. *fingers crossed* ... I'm sure it would just give her material to fire at me...

Perhaps we should leave all talk of type aside in this discussion, since it could lead to us being blindsided - under stress afterall, anything goes, and we do not know how close to "type" each of the persons are, nor how they really are.

rainfall, from your post, it sounds as if the situation is untenable to you.

The question then is, what alternatives do you have besides staying on?

Thus far, you've discussed your feelings of your sister, and it is good to air it out (I hope she doesn't come here too, for your sake ), but your feelings of helplessness will not be helped by constantly thinking of how she makes you feel.

Shift your focus, to what could you do instead to get you out of it, and start planning for that.

It could take 6 months, to a year, but the important thing is to start creating distance from what is toxic to you, and to move forward.

Hang in there.

 

[Atomic Fiend]

Edit: Completely aside, this Edit is for a Spider who keeps trying to bite me and needed to see me a bit webbed. :rolli:

:hi:

Thank you.

 

[rainfall]

IIIIINCOOOOMINNNNNNNNG!!!!

-what is it about her behaviour towards you that you cannot tolerate? Phrase it in rational terms: INTJs will not take emotions very well. It is their blind spot.
Though I have failures, I do not wish to sit there and listen to everyone regurgitating them. It has no positive effects on me, but rather only further reinforces a negative view of myself. I do not like being picked on.
-What is it that you wish from her? (in terms of leaving you alone, support, etc?)
Leave me alone would pretty much sum it up.
-What does she wish from you? And then: what of it can you give, what can't you give? --And in return for giving these things to her: what can she give you in return?
She said that she wants me to "grow up". That is, to work, move out, etc. Then she will respect me. I will, eventually, do all of those things, but I can't say I'll have any respect left for her by that time, due to her behavior.
PS: was the pregnancy unexpected? if so, my guess is that it actually makes her feel inadequate (and hence more domineering over you), since it spoils her immaculately laid out plans for herself and her life.
Yes, she got knocked up (faulty condom) and had to leave college so that she can have a baby. She's planning to go back

Have you asked your sister why she's so antagonistic towards you?
No, I don't recall asking her that.
Has your relationship with her always been like this?
No. In childhood, as far as I remember, she pummeled me because "I was annoying". I'm not saying that I was an angel, I threw scissors (I think she said something that made me go berserk) into her leg once and they stuck fairly deep in it. She is six years older than me and I tried to fight her back, but always lost as I was considerably weaker until I hit 11 or 12. Then, one day, when she shoved me, I was finally strong enough to sent her across the hall, where she smashed into a door. Physical violence pretty much stopped after that. I'm pretty sure I mostly ignored her from that point on and she could not do much else because I was now strong enough to deliver an ass kicking.
Can you think of reasons why your parents don't intervene between the two of you?
They felt same way when I was living with them, and now that we're all living together, they wouldn't want to get in her way anyways. I don't mind though. I must learn to fend for myself on my own.
Would your family be willing to have a real discussion about this problem because it seems like it's a family dynamic issue as well.
Probably. Would it be constructive? No. I'm a shitty verbal combatant and would only lose, especially if she manages to make me lose my cool.
Is it possible for you to move out?
In a year and a half. I have several sources to complete so that I have GED and then I can move to a college to study. My plan is to do that, take a loan, and move to a another province (since my loan will be approved for that college).

Have you tried playing the sympathy card with your parents when they berate you for not wanting to be around her? Telling them that you are really trying to work up the confidence to get on your feet, but when she says those things to you about not finishing school, etc, that it makes you feel like you never will and you lose all motivation?
Yes, actually. My mom has explained it in the way that makes most sense now - don't worry about the sister and just get on your feet. She'll respect me then.

You just work on doing what you need to do in order to make a life for yourself and write her off (for now) as someone who has a lot of insecurities.
I'm a tryin

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/156475-post2376.html

I'll give it a read. Gotta catch up with the rest of this thread that suddenly exploded.

For example, if you're a grown adult living rent-free with your parents, then your parents and your sister may feel perfectly justified in invading your space and making you feel increasingly uncomfortable. They may think that you're taking advantage of your parents and need to move out or at least pay rent.
I have no problem with my parents giving me crap. I don't agree that this should be a concern of my sister, however. She does not have to pay a cent for me.

So I wonder if this is similar to Rainfall's situation. Some people abhor direct confrontation and WILL NOT actively say anything to the kid or voice what they're feeling.
Occasionally (every second day) my mom reminds of what I need to do.
Maybe the sister is acting with the parents blessing, which is why I also wonder if the relationship between him and his sister/parents has always been like this.
I don't think this is the case. They operate on equal terms due to financial situation, so I think they would merely consider it unwise to agitate a conflict.

FWIW, my INTJ daughter is capable of behavior that is close to what rainfall is describing. She gripes about her spoiled younger siblings already and would probably be worse if she thought it would fly. She works hard and follows the rules and she expects everyone else to do the same and to carry their weight. If they do not, she holds them in contempt to some degree. It's not that she hates them or she's evil, she just has high expectations for herself and for others.

Well, um, they apparently wanted a boy, and, um, I was a second child (so they relaxed on me). Therefore I was allowed a little bit more. Well, I suppose, in her eyes, a lot more. Worse yet, I was without restraints she had, and would take it all and ask for more, whereas she would be too shy and modest to ask same things? As a child, I had no problem nagging for money, for ice cream or gum or soda or what not. What's worse, I was persistent and pretty much undeterred by initial request denials. I'd keep asking for something and eventually I got what I wanted, even if only to get rid of me, or because I was favorite. For instance, we had an old bike that was broken and no one used, and it just sat there. I'm sure she asked dad to fix it few times, but he probably was too busy and forgot all the time. It did not matter to me, since I didn't know how to ride it. However, one summer vacation, I learned to ride a bicycle. When I came back from vacation and saw that "hey, we got a broken bicycle" I nagged dad daily, sometimes twice a day to fix it. He would come home and hear "Have you fixed the bike yet?" He tried to stay strong, but after three months he was annoyed enough to fix it. I wonder how she felt when the bike got fixed for me, but not her. Whatever the case, I'm pretty sure that all this has had some impact on her, her who would never ask for money in the first place or much less nag for something.

But the brother-in-law was obviously a sticking point for rainfall, hence there is a (secondary) need to address it.

Don't mind the guy, actually. I mean, he's up there somewhere, and 99 percent of time I don't have to see him. However, the sister constantly bitches that he's drinking with his brothers instead of spending time with her. And then she says, "why can't you be like that and spend time with me?" "Can't you be a good brother to me?" :steam:

The summary for me is this: The situation has already occurred. Hence, rather than focusing on fault finding, it is perhaps more prudent to focus on conflict resolution?
I'm just trying to figure out what's going on, first.

And erm, I know I haven't responded to all of you, but you guys kind of ESSPLODED on me there. I must go do something right now, but I'll be back later.

EDIT: Sorry for red on green. Didn't realize it would look that ugly.