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[NT] reverse class discrimination

Elfboy

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I'm sorry, I just extremely annoyed when certain people are being pseudo-intellectual. Especially when they're being pseudo-intellectual passive-aggressively at my expense.

Of course, certain people are always pseudo-intellectual and have attempted to reduce human relationships to mere caricatures of what they really are because any kind of real emotional introspection frightens them.

But I think you're right, Elfboy, and I think the more complex "class system" you named earlier in the thread was more descriptive than what we've currently been discussing.

Unless new information comes to light. Still waiting.

was that an apology or an accusation of being passive aggressive? (serious question) in any case, in regards to the second part of your post, you're probably right
 

Thalassa

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Neither.

I wasn't talking about you in the first half, I was merely explaining my contention with the issue.
 

Beargryllz

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He or she is making money as he or she plays golf. That's pretty much what many of us have a problem with.

This is true, but this is largely a result of a mechanism initiated by the golfer for the purposes of generating income, wealth creating wealth, for example. I remember once, I was driving down the interstate, and I remembered that, all this time, as I drove into the night, my meager assets were multiplying in some savings account. If I had millions, I would have been making a lot more money as I drove down that highway, but I don't, so I wasn't.
 

Thalassa

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This is true, but this is largely a result of a mechanism initiated by the golfer for the purposes of generating income, wealth creating wealth, for example. I remember once, I was driving down the interstate, and I remembered that, all this time, as I drove into the night, my meager assets were multiplying in some savings account. If I had millions, I would have been making a lot more money as I drove down that highway, but I don't, so I wasn't.

The difference being that by putting your money in a savings account you weren't exploiting other people.
 

Elfboy

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Neither.

I wasn't talking about you in the first half, I was merely explaining my contention with the issue.

my bad, your comment just really confused me at first :laugh:
 

Beargryllz

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The difference being that by putting your money in a savings account you weren't exploiting other people.

Why am I absolved from this, but not other people? Why is my money more clean? Somebody, somewhere, had to generate that wealth, and I have done essentially nothing to get it, except wait around, hands on lap.
 

Thalassa

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Why am I absolved from this, but not other people? Why is my money more clean? Somebody, somewhere, had to generate that wealth, and I have done essentially nothing to get it, except wait around, hands on lap.

Nobody's money is more clean...lolwut? It doesn't matter how much money a person makes, if they put it into savings, they aren't actively exploiting anyone. There are ways to make money without overtly exploiting people, and no I don't mean by being in one of the "helping professions" either. You can own a business and run it ethically.
 

Beargryllz

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Nobody's money is more clean...lolwut? It doesn't matter how much money a person makes, if they put it into savings, they aren't actively exploiting anyone. There are ways to make money without overtly exploiting people, and no I don't mean by being in one of the "helping professions" either. You can own a business and run it ethically.

We should establish a baseline for exploitation and ethics. Who exploits? Who is practicing business ethically? If one were to exploit, what would he or she have to do, if one were to be ethical in these matters, what would he or she have to do? Could you be both at the same time, or rhythmically? Or would you usually only fall definitely into one or the other?
 

onemoretime

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And what constitutes a lower-class value system, a middle-class value system, and an upper-class value system?

Quick sketch:

1. Working class - hard work, "playing through the pain", unwillingness to take charity, "hustling" or having side ventures to make extra money, little use for non-practical education, respect for accepted authorities, traditionally solidarity, importance of religion, high standards of personal conduct, expectation of and forgiveness for failures, intolerance of perceived laziness, disdain for haughty or arrogant attitudes, focus on local affairs, low priority of global affairs

2. Middle class - perceived ideal of work/leisure balance, pain is an annoyance to be medicated away, cutthroat competition with an expectation of taking care of vanquished opponents in some way, entrepreneurship, education the most important thing, authorities seen as a means to an end, individualism, diminished importance of religion, some measure of hedonism tolerated, as long as it doesn't get in the way of work, failure means diminished self-worth, intolerance of perceived inefficiency, disdain for ignorant or dismissive attitudes, focus on regional to global affairs

3. Upper/capitalist class - focus on the "right kind" of work, pain is a reminder that you too are human, charity is expected of you, patronage of talent seen as a virtue, education of "the whole man" both intellectual and physical, taking one's place as an authority in society, individual is representative of a family, religion important as a preserve of family tradition, high standards of personal conduct, pleasure to be taken from traditional pastimes, ostracism arising from failure and unwillingness to correct oneself, intolerance for lack of refinement, disdain for flattering or selfish attitudes, local affairs are global affairs
 

yenom

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Anyone in his right mind dislikes and despises greedy, self-important people who don't play well with others.
Ambition for the sake of knowledge is an awe-inspiring thing, and it is commendable. So is making a lot of money by your own work.
I love when people are really good at what they do, and I strive to be that myself.
But when that tips over into capitalizing off of the work of others? No, that is *not* something good or natural.
For most of our duration on this planet, that was not how things worked. It is just an abominable social construct devised during the last few thousand years.

Call me a simpleton if you will. If I lacked enough heart to be the greedy bastard with sharp elbows and no care for others that lives in all of us (and that normal people fight), then perhaps I could be a greedy psychopath like most successful business people are.
But no, I don't want to be that guy. I care for others, and I am most definitely a team player.
Trust me, you guys are just a waste product of too much peace. In trying times your rampant individualism would not be tolerated, and you would be crucified.

All in all, I'd like to be rich and I probably will be someday, because I work harder than anyone else. However. I probably need to remind you again, it is not being rich I despise.
It is the method of obtaining said $ through the work of others that is truly despicable and wrong. This isn't Sparta, yet there are slaves.
The only reason paid labor has it any better than slaves did is that the industry and farming nowadays is more effective, the slave owners remain the same bastards they always were.

Haha
 

onemoretime

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Why am I absolved from this, but not other people? Why is my money more clean? Somebody, somewhere, had to generate that wealth, and I have done essentially nothing to get it, except wait around, hands on lap.

Your money isn't profiting off of paying people less than the value of their labor to you. When you put money in a savings account, you're actively denying yourself the use of that money in exchange for the interest paid to you. The interest is the consideration for the detriment incurred through the lack of access. Interest is set at a particular level for the most part, so it's nothing more than a standard rent agreement.

Capital investments, on the other hand, only make money because at some point, you pay people less than their labor or commodities are worth to you, or you charge people more than costs (including salary paid to self) to oneself. Tolerance for this depends on information imbalances between parties, and it is through the exploitation of this imbalance that this practice is of dubious morality (don't believe me? Ask Adam Smith).

We should establish a baseline for exploitation and ethics. Who exploits? Who is practicing business ethically? If one were to exploit, what would he or she have to do, if one were to be ethical in these matters, what would he or she have to do? Could you be both at the same time, or rhythmically? Or would you usually only fall definitely into one or the other?

Exploit - use information or power imbalances to one's own advantage and another's disadvantage
Ethical practices - fairness and open dealing with everyone a person does business with

The two are generally mutually exclusive. Problem is that the game is rigged in favor of those who cheat. That's why you need heavy regulation to maintain a market with many actors.
 

onemoretime

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All of those qualities are present to such an extent at all economic levels above an 'under-class' that defining class in such a way is essentially pointless.

How did I know, even before I clicked on the thread, that you were going to respond that way? Oh right - because you've already decided what you think, like you always do, and immediately will dismiss any disagreement entirely, rather than discuss the points that were raised, or provide an alternative definition.

It's OK, though - we can't have those evil thoughts infecting your brain. You might learn something, and that would be simply terrible.
 
O

Oberon

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Capital investments, on the other hand, only make money because at some point, you pay people less than their labor or commodities are worth to you, or you charge people more than costs (including salary paid to self) to oneself. Tolerance for this depends on information imbalances between parties, and it is through the exploitation of this imbalance that this practice is of dubious morality (don't believe me? Ask Adam Smith).

I think it's really incumbent on those who see inherent injustice in this brand of capitalism to start industrial or commercial ventures of their own, ventures that are explicitly not-for-profit and which exist solely for the purpose of returning fair value for labor. Failing that, the laborers themselves should organize into employee-owned companies and so provide labor market competition for the old-school capitalists. Doing so would help direct employees considerably, and would exert upward pressure on wages across the market.
 

entropie

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I think nobody on Earth will be born happy with the things he does / did. It's a problem I think every person has when he asks himself if he couldnt have done something differently and would have ended up somewhere differently what was better. I suffer from worries like that to a huge extent but my girlfriend has the ability to seize my thoughts and ease my mind. It's maybe a flaw in Ne-people of never really being happy with the own achievements and may they be the highest possible. What makes it worse for me is that I know I procrastinated a lot and could have easily really have done it better, but well... here I go again.

I really still have to learn that I could just embrace life because it is good for me and I live a good life. Yet somehow, sometimes, one is too stupid to actually recognize what he has
 

lowtech redneck

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How did I know, even before I clicked on the thread, that you were going to respond that way? Oh right - because you've already decided what you think, like you always do, and immediately will dismiss any disagreement entirely, rather than discuss the points that were raised, or provide an alternative definition.

It's OK, though - we can't have those evil thoughts infecting your brain. You might learn something, and that would be simply terrible.

I've already provided an alternative definition; income. Its the only criteria that is objective (outside of a caste system) and its not so amorphous as to be practically worthless. There are some cultural traits more common in certain classes than others, but that affects the likelihood of upward and downward mobility, not the class someone is in.

As for 'learning something', I already read everything you had posted in sociology textbooks, you haven't provided any new information or ideas to digest.
 

chachamaru

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The very rich can afford to give offense wherever they go.
-Pride and Prejudice
 
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