[ENTP] EXTPs and I dont know what this is called issue

[sculpting]

Hello EXTPs.

So I keep hanging out with EXTPs of both varieties and they seem willing, even eager, to find specific individuals to blame when shit goes wrong. I, being a ridiculous enfp, will do everything I can not to assign blame to a specific individual, and instead point blame at either entire groups, management of groups, procedures or problems with the logistics of the group.

I explained to my entp best buddy that when she highlights a specific person, it either feels like she is talking trash or is "throwing someone under the bus". After a fifteen minute convo explaining what "throwing somebody under the bus" meant, I realized it was highly likely my ENTP had "thrown me under the bus" on occasion based upon her slightly nervous expression. This makes me giggle and I still love her.

This isnt about judging or giving you guys shit at all as obviously I am being a bit nuerotic and missing something here. She explained that everybody messes up and it is totally okay to complain when someone else pisses you off and fucks up. She said it is the Ti venting thing.

So my Qs-

Did I totally misunderstand this^^^?

How do you know if somebody else has fucked up a little vs a lot? Is it about how frequently everyone complains about them or some sort of modification of terminology or intensity of the complaint?

Is venting bonding?

What does it sound like if I shift the convo to something away from blaming an individual-like talking about the whole group, or processes or logistics-the EXTPs all get odd at this point and quit talking, and I am thus confused....it's how I vent, but they dont seem to get the shift in convo...

When i do talk about someone I must fuck it up as the EXTPs again get quiet-any ideas about what I am saying that is "sounds" wrong?

(I have been drinking thus this may be somewhat confusing, so interpret as needed.)

 

[Yussa Tampon]

When you enlightened your EXTP friend on "tossing people under the bus", it was probably a breath of fresh air to have someone like yourself put things in perspective for her in regards to "blaming individuals vs. if blaming is even relevant". She was most likely taking time to gather things from your point of view and interpreted it as she saw fit. I usually act or appear odd as you describe when trying to make sense of things.

But yeah, Venting is EXTP's special method of bonding! we don't just bitch to anyone, y'know.

 

[Shimmy]

No, you have to be deservant of our whining!

On the other hand. We rowers (it's the sport I practice, not a weird nickname for EXTP's) are notorious for blaming circumstances, our material or team mates when we don't row well. Within my team I'm particularly known for critiquing things I'm not happy with, not always to the pleasure of my fellow rowers, our coxwains or our coaches! This does not mean that I'm not an optimist about the team or training in general, or that I think I myself am better then the others. It's just my view of what went wrong and needs to be corrected. It's just my habit of isolating the weak points in a system and trying to improve upon them.

 

[funkadelik]

It's just my view of what went wrong and needs to be corrected. It's just my habit of isolating the weak points in a system and trying to improve upon them.

This.

I enjoy a good bitch fest. Get some ideas out in the open, freshen up the air, jazz things up a bit. But it's hardly ever personal (even if it involves pointing out individuals as the crux of the problem). So maybe she felt like your were implying that she was being too personal (and thusly, a tad cruel)?

I dunno. I get quiet in conversations for different reasons. Usually it's cause I'm trying to make sense of things. So yeah, go with that!

 

[A window to the soul]

This isnt about judging or giving you guys shit at all as obviously I am being a bit nuerotic and missing something here. She explained that everybody messes up and it is totally okay to complain when someone else pisses you off and fucks up. She said it is the Ti venting thing.

So my Qs-

Did I totally misunderstand this^^^?

How do you know if somebody else has fucked up a little vs a lot? Is it about how frequently everyone complains about them or some sort of modification of terminology or intensity of the complaint?

Is venting bonding?

What does it sound like if I shift the convo to something away from blaming an individual-like talking about the whole group, or processes or logistics-the EXTPs all get odd at this point and quit talking, and I am thus confused....it's how I vent, but they dont seem to get the shift in convo...

When i do talk about someone I must fuck it up as the EXTPs again get quiet-any ideas about what I am saying that is "sounds" wrong?

(I have been drinking thus this may be somewhat confusing, so interpret as needed.)

I don't waste time with blame; unless I'm trying to teach you something to help you. I may not sugar coat that for your listening pleasure. I don't really care how much someone screws up as long as they see where we're at and where we need to be. I'm quiet long enough to hear you out, but I'm almost always ready to leave screw-ups in the forgotten past where they're destined to be along with other obstacles. Tell me something brilliant and constructive. Let's move onward and upwards. Venting is bonding sure, as long as you are listening & responding positively to my moving past this. Again, we all know what we did, we all know what we need to do, let's move on.

As for people complaining, I'm not really focused on you and your complaining or my own headaches... I'm tuning you out once you start to repeat yourself or get too emo and nonsensical. I gotta focus on how we can move past this as quickly as possible at that point. I want to work together to achieve xyz goals. That's my passion. In that way I'm very selfish. Call that fake, but I know what needs to be done, I'll flex enough to cut through the BS to make it happen. Resistance is futile.

 

[miss fortune]

I thought that commiserating about something you don't like or a bad day was standard practice for feeling better

 

[A window to the soul]

I thought that commiserating about something you don't like or a bad day was standard practice for feeling better

Don't get me wrong. I'll rant, but it's brief and fleeting. I grew up with NFJ 's; I learned quickly that NOBODY wants to hear me rant!

 

[sculpting]

I thought that commiserating about something you don't like or a bad day was standard practice for feeling better

well, this is where this whole typological crap can be kinda helpful to be honest. innately I might think my entp friend was being mean when in reality it is as the other entps said-she was finding holes in the system. She says she assumes I already know the positives so why repeat them.

The problem is that based upon my own worldview, I would would be inclined to judge negatively when that is really unfair to the person being judged-so I try and start threads like this so I can understand what pieces I am missing and I dont fuck people over by being too judgmental. But I vent too, just in a different way which you guys tend to hear as whiny.

 

[Kasper]

One thing I cannot tolerate is someone not taking responsibility for their own fuckups, I don't dig on bitching or complaining, I don't dig on attacking others or cornering them and if I can see they acknowledge their mistake and will fix it and/or not make it again I would leave it alone. Thing is if something goes wrong I must understand why, sometimes it is the framework people are working with, other times it is the people, I do not consider either one easier to assign responsibility of fuckups to. I treat all circumstances equal, even if it comes down to human error.

I am not eager to assign "blame" I am eager to understand the issue and fix it, it is very, very rarely about blame, it's just not that personal.

How do you know if somebody else has fucked up a little vs a lot? Is it about how frequently everyone complains about them or some sort of modification of terminology or intensity of the complaint?

I use objective methods as much as possible, such as the result of their fuckup, how long they have been doing the wrong thing etc, the main subjective thing I rely on is their attitude towards their error.

Is venting bonding?

Yes, but I do not enjoy it personally.

What does it sound like if I shift the convo to something away from blaming an individual-like talking about the whole group, or processes or logistics-the EXTPs all get odd at this point and quit talking, and I am thus confused....it's how I vent, but they dont seem to get the shift in convo...

Wait, are you talking about venting for the sake of venting or raising an issue that needs to be resolved? The former is of no consequence to me and I'd just as soon ignore those who do that, the latter is of interest but shifting the focus of the conversation away from the cause if it is a person seems like covering for them or excusing them and that in my mind does no favours, if someone screws up it should be brought to their attention, they may raise other environmental concerns but the point is most people will not change something unless it is identified as an issue and specifically their issue.

I am all for doing that in a discreet manner wherever possible however.

 

[sculpting]

I use objective methods as much as possible, such as the result of their fuckup, how long they have been doing the wrong thing etc, the main subjective thing I rely on is their attitude towards their error.

What signs do you use to measure attitude?

Wait, are you talking about venting for the sake of venting or raising an issue that needs to be resolved? The former is of no consequence to me and I'd just as soon ignore those who do that, the latter is of interest but shifting the focus of the conversation away from the cause if it is a person seems like covering for them or excusing them and that in my mind does no favours, if someone screws up it should be brought to their attention, they may raise other environmental concerns but the point is most people will not change something unless it is identified as an issue and specifically their issue.

I would say this falls more towards raising an issue that needs to be resolved, although rarely do I see it happen in front of the other person.

To give my perspective-I rarely will assume an individual is to blame, almost always assuming that people inherently will do their best or lack sufficient information or knowledge, if performance is lacking. (Note: yeah, totally being idealistic about people). Once I do realize a particular person is screwing things up knowingly, my tendency will be to pull them aside and say "Hey, I realize you are working really hard (Fi), but I have noticed there are several things not getting taken care of.(Te)"

If at that point they try and raise environmental concerns, I will interpret it as making excuses, as I have already spent a great deal of time thinking about reasons environmentally that would have prevented them from completing the task. If I am called out on my lack of accountability, then I would tend to discuss no environmental concerns at all, feeling my own self to be making excuses, but totally take responsibility and do better the next time.

^^Not saying either of my responses are correct at all, just noting they differ symmetrically from your responses.

The diff explains a great deal and is very helpful in understanding why I have been stumbling some in interactions with an ESTP boss I have. Thanks!

 

[Kasper]

What signs do you use to measure attitude?

Are they scowling at me? That one is usually a give away! Iunno, reading people's moods and therefore attitudes is easy for me, they wear it on their face, in their voice and in their posture and gestures. Even if someone is masking their true feelings it's easy to see, and most people don't attempt to mask them.

To give my perspective-I rarely will assume an individual is to blame, almost always assuming that people inherently will do their best or lack sufficient information or knowledge, if performance is lacking. (Note: yeah, totally being idealistic about people).

My assumption is people are fallible, my other assumption however, unless we've been here before, is that they are not screwing up deliberately or without cause.

Once I do realize a particular person is screwing things up knowingly, my tendency will be to pull them aside and say "Hey, I realize you are working really hard (Fi), but I have noticed there are several things not getting taken care of.(Te)"

Don't see how that's Fi-Te, I'd use the same approach myself, it's simply a matter of the approach that would get the best outcome, embarrassing someone in front of others will be met with resistance. In a work situation we're not there to spoon feed people but for an environment to be pleasant and therefore productive people need to be given an opportunity to explain things... then not do it again. When reprimanding someone I try to begin on a positive, move towards the negative then end on a mutual positive we've agreed on, I don't want to sap their motivation.

If at that point they try and raise environmental concerns, I will interpret it as making excuses, as I have already spent a great deal of time thinking about reasons environmentally that would have prevented them from completing the task. If I am called out on my lack of accountability, then I would tend to discuss no environmental concerns at all, feeling my own self to be making excuses, but totally take responsibility and do better the next time.

Excuses are often the first thing that come out of the mouth of someone caught doing the wrong thing, their poor timing doesn't invalidate them, if an environmental issue is being blamed as part of the reason then I would do everything within my power to remove that issue so they could never blame it again, therefore if the same situation arises again they would be in the shit. It would be made clear that their "excuse" will be removed so pull your thumb out and do what you're supposed to.

 

[A window to the soul]

I, being a ridiculous enfp, will do everything I can not to assign blame to a specific individual, and instead point blame at either entire groups, management of groups, procedures or problems with the logistics of the group.

I explained to my entp best buddy that when she highlights a specific person, it either feels like she is talking trash or is "throwing someone under the bus". After a fifteen minute convo explaining what "throwing somebody under the bus" meant, I realized it was highly likely my ENTP had "thrown me under the bus" on occasion based upon her slightly nervous expression. This makes me giggle and I still love her.

^ Orobas I know you mean well, but your generalizations (i.e., xNTP's, Fi-Te) don't make any sense, nor do I identify. Have you studied the cognitive functions? Here's a quasi-definition for Fe (xNTP)... "Extraverted Feeling relies on the outward, left-brain criteria of custom and law to mark off decisions that go beyond our immediate experience to affect the larger community." (source)

Fe (xNTP) is left brained and logical. Fi (xNFP) is right brained and value driven. (source)

I don't think it's reasonable to say that an xNTP is more likely to throw you under a bus than an xNFP. Does it sound logical to say that since you assume your xNTP co-worker threw you under a bus (based on her facial expressions towards you), then you as an xNFP might make an emotional-based decision to throw her under a bus if your feelings get hurt in the future? (...because for whatever reason it appears you would rather assume & generalize, than just be direct and ask your co-worker the pertinent questions.) For instance, did you ask your co-worker/friend if she threw you under a bus?? I'm not understanding your assumptions that she did just because she's xNTP and looked at you funny; that's not logical and I don't relate. Maybe I misunderstood you.

Edit: Are the 'greater goals' from directly and candidly communicating with folks 'at work' not clear? If they're not and something is bothering you, it's best to face it directly to resolve it. Don't be afraid to define the boundaries and speak up when it counts.

Don't see how that's Fi-Te,

^ It's not. (It's not reasonable to assume the attitudes/behaviors are uniquely Fi-Te xNFP.)

Don't see how that's Fi-Te, I'd use the same approach myself, it's simply a matter of the approach that would get the best outcome, embarrassing someone in front of others will be met with resistance. In a work situation we're not there to spoon feed people but for an environment to be pleasant and therefore productive people need to be given an opportunity to explain things... then not do it again. When reprimanding someone I try to begin on a positive, move towards the negative then end on a mutual positive we've agreed on, I don't want to sap their motivation.

^ I'm with you on that.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I don't waste time with blame; unless I'm trying to teach you something to help you. I may not sugar coat that for your listening pleasure. I don't really care how much someone screws up as long as they see where we're at and where we need to be. I'm quiet long enough to hear you out, but I'm almost always ready to leave screw-ups in the forgotten past where they're destined to be along with other obstacles. Tell me something brilliant and constructive. Let's move onward and upwards. Venting is bonding sure, as long as you are listening & responding positively to my moving past this. Again, we all know what we did, we all know what we need to do, let's move on.

As for people complaining, I'm not really focused on you and your complaining or my own headaches... I'm tuning you out once you start to repeat yourself or get too emo and nonsensical. I gotta focus on how we can move past this as quickly as possible at that point. I want to work together to achieve xyz goals. That's my passion. In that way I'm very selfish. Call that fake, but I know what needs to be done, I'll flex enough to cut through the BS to make it happen. Resistance is futile.

The bolded part is one of the great appeals that ENTPs have for me. If left to my own devices I can sit and wallow in guilt, self-pity, blame, whatever, until galaxies collide. Having someone who thinks so differently from me in regard to this really does help me to get out of emo mode much faster. Not that I don't still have my moments when I need to have them, but their rate of occurance is much less.