[NT] NTP and Fe

[lunalum]

As someone a bit conflicted between I and E at the moment, this is relevant to my interests.

Being a self proclaimed ENTP, currently 29 years old (who doesn't really have a very strong sense of extroversion), I thought that maybe most INTPs will just be reformed into this more ENTP-ish phase once they get older. Honestly, I really feel more INTP-ish years ago.

So INTPs in their 20s tend to go through an ENTP phase? Or, ENTPs with weak E may look INTP until reaching their later 20s? *takes note*

You have to admit, INTPs do cling too much to their Ti.

Could the same be said for other types and their dominant functions?

It's like, you need to have a certain degree of social conformity (Fe) and creative flexibility (Ne) to pursue individualistic agendas. The individuality is still there in the agenda, but you need to make some compromises, instead of clinging to the virtue of your own intellect (Ti).

I agree with using Ne and Fe to pursue individualistic agendas, but I think some of the individualistic agenda is lost if one has to let go of Ti in the pursuit.

The gist here is, you find your niche to pursue your personal goals. You just can't do it alone.

Agreed here. Those other people are kind of helpful I don’t know about ‘niche’ in the singular though, more like a giant network.

Yeah, it can be tough for the INTP to let go of Ti. As you get older, you definitely see the need for it though. You see other people being successful (in social circles, in jobs, etc.) by letting go and not just being a Ti-monster.

I learned long, long ago that most other people don’t really like Ti. Especially when things get so unreasonable that Ti turns into a monster and shoots lasers at everything. So I don’t really let go, but since I value having a support network and going to school, I’ve learned to hide my true monstrous nature

For INTP's, we see that it's important to "fit in" and we see the importance of Ne and Fe, but it also feels like you're "letting go" of something that is so essential to yourself

Exactly. At the same time though, Ne is also very essential to me. I kind of get caught in a battle whether to sit on my own and complete my analysis, or to get input from the outer world to gather more ideas.

And I agree with the ENTP's that Ti can't do it all by itself. It needs help.

Of course it needs help. It’s just that in some INTPs it is helped by a bunch of mindless minion functions, and in some all of the functions are at the table together with about-equal input.

And I absolutely hate watching someone "butter up" another person using Fe for their own personal gain. It's like, "Hey, I didn't give a crap about you last week and I won't really give a crap about you the moment this conversation is over, but, yeah, do you think you could do a big favor for me today?" And, just because you're smiling at them and acting friendly towards them at that moment and you told a funny joke that made the person laugh before you asked the favor, doesn't change the fact that you're basically "using the person". The joking and the Fe is only a way of "making it look nice" - dressing it up. I see the personal value in it (my agenda will move forward), but I don't see the value in it for the other person - in fact, I usually see it as "unfair" to them especially when they have no idea they just got pwned by the ENTP and his Fe. It's valuable for "me" and "what I want", but it's just really hard for me to engage in that practice (and admittedly, I'm not that good at it).

I am oddly somewhat comfortable and very uncomfortable with this practice. It is hard to explain…

+1 Agreed completely, NTPs who are logic-whores IMO tend to be really unhealthy, as a former logic whore myself, I can definitely say that most of those NTPs who are afraid Fe or any sort of emotive expression or emotive reason for that matter, are sad little child, immature unhealthy people... frankly we need more healthy NTPs out there.

LOL, I am liking the term ‘logic-whore,’ and if I could phrase it slightly milder I would use it to describe myself. If ‘healthy’ means to let go of logic and use Fe naturally, then ‘healthy’ is overrated

I'm kind of interested in how Fe expression differs between male and female NTPs. I would say that females tend to be warmer, but at the same time I know I can be as big a troll as any guy.

I think I switch around a lot between warm and cold. It is hard to find a balance. People see me as this sweet little girl when I am on my warm side, and then get all confused when I switch to cold (and therefore seem less sweet and feminine).

Maybe it differs when male and female NTPs start to really pay attention to and value their Fe. Women might feel it sooner as their biological clocks are likely to run out sooner than men's. I know every once in a while I'm overcome with very strong, very strange maternal feelings for other people. And babies. My uterus is telling me I've only got X number more years of fertility. Gotta find me a husband and a steady income and start churning out some offspring! And that means opening up and caring for other people and building a support network to help break any falls I might have as I synthesize my new family.

Maybe this is part of the type shift too. This biological clock thing scares me, lol.

 

[Neutralpov]

One problem is that I used to very very very solid and having a stable inner core; but with all the shift into Ne/Fe, I sometimes feel like my personality doesn't exist, I'm not sure who I am. When something external changes, I automatically change to accommodate it, and it bothers me / leaves me feeling unstable.

I also find myself shifting around trying to find stimulation from the external environment all the time, whereas I used to be happy being alone and doing things on my own, and shutting the rest of the world (people and surroundings) out. That feeling of instability, I'm wondering if that is far more typical of Ne and Fe strong people -- where you're changing to accommodate external reality so much.

I knee-jerk oddly when I see Fe characterized as group or social conformity?? Just because I can read the values or feelings shared does not mean I accept them. In fact I tested as individualistic in the StrengthsFinder test series. I think it is a skill to read the morale and values changing and difference in groups or gatherings of people/ friends but it is a great way for me to vet my own internal decisions, as I do see things in comparison well. And I use my insight with group leading and shaping.

I do think that Fe or Ne cannot exist in congruence sometimes with the introverted f(x). For me to react and use Fe well I am reacting to externals without my own intuitions interfering on my personal feelings on the experiences. I am intuiting for the others in front of me (not keeping an internal script).In fact need time away to intuit what I think or feel on the situation apart form the external interactions.

In fact one of the most unhealthy times in my life was overdone Fe and it does result in not knowing what you want (because it is highly external) and there is not internal story running while engaging in Fe for me.

 

[INTPness]

I knee-jerk oddly when I see Fe characterized as group or social conformity?? Just because I can read the values or feelings shared does not mean I accept them.

Fe likes to get everyone on the same page, everyone working together, it likes harmony between people, it enjoys social niceties. When the ENFJ that I know invites me to a social gathering and I don't want to go, she says, "Why? Why won't you go? Your friends will be there, people that care about you will be there. You haven't seen some of them in a while. In fact one of them was asking about you the other day." It's hard to put into words, but Fe kind of "wants everyone to get along" - and that's the "social conformity" that I think people are talking about.

My friend reads my feelings and, you're right, she disagrees with me. She wants me to go to all of the events that she plans and organizes. When I say no, she disagrees with me. But, she very nicely and diplomatically tries to get me to go, tries to convince me nicely of all the reasons why it's good for me to go.

Ti, on the other hand, is extremely individualistic. Sometimes overly, ridiculously individualistic. Sometimes when she's convincing me to "participate" and to "be a part of the group" because "she thinks it would be good for me" and because "everyone would love to see me", when she goes on and on like this, it irks me so much that I purposely don't go. It's a way of establishing that I am an individual and that, you can try as hard as you want to get me to join the group dynamics, but ultimately it's still up to me.

It's really hard to describe, but it's like the harder she pushes her ideals on me, the harder I rebel (just instinctively). If she pushes some event really hard (someone's birthday party, for example), the harder I will stand up and assert my individualism. If she would just chill out with the idea that I have to "conform" to group dynamics, then I'd do it more often. Fe is a trip, but so is Ti I guess.

 

[Coriolis]

I'm kind of interested in how Fe expression differs between male and female NTPs. I would say that females tend to be warmer, but at the same time I know I can be as big a troll as any guy.

i am always curious about others' thoughts on this question. For me, type differences have always far outweighed gender differences, but I am generalizing here from my own experiences which are obviously quite limited.

 

[INTPness]

i am always curious about others' thoughts on this question. For me, type differences have always far outweighed gender differences, but I am generalizing here from my own experiences which are obviously quite limited.

In regards to the NTP women I have known, I don't think there's any more natural inclination for them to use Fe than there is for me. But, I do think (at least at a younger age) that they maybe "try" to use Fe more because of social conditioning - the whole "you're a girl you're supposed to be tender and caring, etc, etc." I know 2 female ENTP's and 2 female INTP's (all between 40-60 years old) and they are all very capable of having that "coldness" to them. They are bubbly in some respects (ENTP's more than the INTP's), but that's mainly Ne when you first meet them. They are all capable of using Fe when the situation calls for it, but just like the male NTP's, it's not their primary operating mode.

 

[Forever_Jung]

Fe likes to get everyone on the same page, everyone working together, it likes harmony between people, it enjoys social niceties. When the ENFJ that I know invites me to a social gathering and I don't want to go, she says, "Why? Why won't you go? Your friends will be there, people that care about you will be there. You haven't seen some of them in a while. In fact one of them was asking about you the other day." It's hard to put into words, but Fe kind of "wants everyone to get along" - and that's the "social conformity" that I think people are talking about.

My friend reads my feelings and, you're right, she disagrees with me. She wants me to go to all of the events that she plans and organizes. When I say no, she disagrees with me. But, she very nicely and diplomatically tries to get me to go, tries to convince me nicely of all the reasons why it's good for me to go.

Ti, on the other hand, is extremely individualistic. Sometimes overly, ridiculously individualistic. Sometimes when she's convincing me to "participate" and to "be a part of the group" because "she thinks it would be good for me" and because "everyone would love to see me", when she goes on and on like this, it irks me so much that I purposely don't go. It's a way of establishing that I am an individual and that, you can try as hard as you want to get me to join the group dynamics, but ultimately it's still up to me.

It's really hard to describe, but it's like the harder she pushes her ideals on me, the harder I rebel (just instinctively). If she pushes some event really hard (someone's birthday party, for example), the harder I will stand up and assert my individualism. If she would just chill out with the idea that I have to "conform" to group dynamics, then I'd do it more often. Fe is a trip, but so is Ti I guess.

I don't want to seem like a Fe-basher, but I feel like this as well. I find large social gatherings overwhelming to my Fi, but my Fe-heavy friends seem to think that it's because I don't realize the benefits, or that I dislike the people present. And so they try to convince me, and even though they're doing it ever so tactfully it just makes me feel resentful, I don't like to be coerced by outside factors, even if it's done with sugar and spice and everything nice. My "I don't think so" becomes a "HELL NO", and we both end up feeling a little insulted.

It's like when movies are trying really hard to make me cry the whole time, I end up feeling manipulated/overwhelmed and I go cold instead. But I cried during "Knocked Up", because I didn't feel like the movie was forcing me into feeling that way, and I didn't expect it to touch me either.

Also, the way INTP's are talking about Fe reminds me of my relationship with Te. I see the need, but I suck at it, and it feels like I am betraying myself. But dammit, Te gets results, and sometimes needs to supersede my precious Fi. It's hard to let it go, and to slow WAY down and try to use my Te.

 

[INTPness]

I don't want to seem like a Fe-basher, but I feel like this as well. I find large social gatherings overwhelming to my Fi, but my Fe-heavy friends seem to think that it's because I don't realize the benefits, or that I dislike the people present. And so they try to convince me, and even though they're doing it ever so tactfully it just makes me feel resentful, I don't like to be coerced by outside factors, even if it's done with sugar and spice and everything nice. My "I don't think so" becomes a "HELL NO", and we both end up feeling a little insulted.

It's like when movies are trying really hard to make me cry the whole time, I end up feeling manipulated/overwhelmed and I go cold instead. But I cried during "Knocked Up", because I didn't feel like the movie was forcing me into feeling that way, and I didn't expect it to touch me either.

Also, the way INTP's are talking about Fe reminds me of my relationship with Te. I see the need, but I suck at it, and it feels like I am betraying myself. But dammit, Te gets results, and sometimes needs to supersede my precious Fi. It's hard to let it go, and to slow WAY down and try to use my Te.

I can't believe you. You're such an Fe-basher

But, no, it's true what you say. At first when the Fe-dom asks me to be involved with their plan (their "master plan") I might say "no" in a nice way. When they keep harping on me, then it becomes a, "Listen here, stop trying to tell me how to live my life and why I need to do everything you say. Just back up a few steps and chill yourself out."

Interesting that you say Te kind of has a similar feel to you as Fe does for INTP's. Likewise, Te can irk me much in the same way that Fe can irk me. Te-doms who "want to get stuff done" can sometimes really get on my nerves too and my reaction to them can be similar to my reaction to Fe-doms. "Look here you Te-mongrel, I'm not your little trick pony, ready to respond to your every beck and call. Back off." That's one of the few times you'll see a Te user with a confused look: It's like, "Yeah, I said it. Back off!" I'm very, very flexible and you have to REALLY put me over the edge to get me to say something like that, but yeah, Fe and Te can be a little pushy and overbearing at times.

Sometimes too, when I'm using Fe, I think to myself, "I'm such a panzie for using this approach. Grow a pair and say it like you mean it." It's just so "soft" and "do you think you could do a favor for me" and "would you like to go get some ice cream". LOL. It has it's place, no doubt, like calming or diffusing awkward/tense situations or making people feel comfortable or at ease when they have been hurt or made to feel bad, etc. It has a soothing effect and an "I'm here for you" effect to it. I guess like any function, it has its pros and cons.