• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] Am I a narcissistic sadistic SOB?

Tigerlily

unscannable
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
5,942
MBTI Type
TIGR
Enneagram
3w4
As a mother of three children who are growing up very fast please be nice to your mom. We sacrifice a lot and just want to be appreciated. I know how uncool all this sounds to most of you, but being a parent can be incredibly stressful. I worry all the time about our kids and they take up pretty much all my time so to think that one day they may want to take pot shots at my ego is really depressing.

Edahn this all sounds like a T/F thing between you two. You have the knowledge of MBTI, use it wisely.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I guess this all comes down to whether I investigate to hurt, to heal, or just to understand. Or maybe all 3.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
It's true but it's hard to stop. When I see her, the only thing that I see is her faults and I want to pick at them. Not just to hurt her, but to understand and solve. I guess it's like popping an emotional pimple. Hard to resist.

I really think it would be different if she carried herself with confidence. I know how fucked up that sounds, making it HER issue that I have little sympathy, but I do think it's true.
Could you consider resisting an exercise in developing maturity?
Is this an age thing or a maturity thing? Being more on the T side, I tend to evaluate ideas based on their substance, regardless of the source.
At this point, age is still going to be a factor. An FJ is probably going to have a sense of social appropriateness about this kind of thing which would make it not your place to intrude because you don't have the place of a trusted friend or a peer.

You do not have to say everything you think just because you think it. If she isn't asking, then it isn't your place to comment and even if she was asking, less would definitely be more.

She has to work out her own stuff just like you will and she has probably had to make a certain amount of peace and compromise with her situation because life is just like that sometimes. Taking away her coping mechanisms because you think they are no good is really not such a great idea unless you want to devote the next five plus years of your life helping her rebuild new ones.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Could you consider resisting an exercise in developing maturity?

If I could clearly see that resisting is the mature thing to do. Do you think it's mature because she's not ready for deep reflection in the manner I've presented it, or is this back to FJ appropriateness? Not that that's fatal or anything, I just want to know.

Taking away her coping mechanisms because you think they are no good is really not such a great idea unless you want to devote the next five plus years of your life helping her rebuild new ones.

I would love to help her out. I try, often, to bribe her with different perspectives, but she isn't willing. I get your point, though.
 

Tigerlily

unscannable
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
5,942
MBTI Type
TIGR
Enneagram
3w4
I guess this all comes down to whether I investigate to hurt, to heal, or just to understand. Or maybe all 3.
The fact that you even want to discuss this means you care, so no you're not a narcissistic sadistic SOB.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
If I could clearly see that resisting is the mature thing to do. Do you think it's mature because she's not ready for deep reflection in the manner I've presented it, or is this back to FJ appropriateness? Not that that's fatal or anything, I just want to know.
Both, really. Mostly because it's not appropriate, I suppose. She's an adult. It's not written anywhere that you have to self-actualize if you don't want to. You aren't her therapist, you aren't her spouse, or her friend of thirty years, she doesn't want your involvement so it is no more appropriate for you to try to force your way in than it would be for you to do so with, say, a professor or an employer.
I would love to help her out. I try, often, to bribe her with different perspectives, but she isn't willing. I get your point, though.
Helping her out wouldn't be enough. What you are doing is trying to pull little cards out of the bottom of her house. Would she be happier if she let it all fall down and rebuilt it on a better foundation? Probably. Does that mean she's ready to do it right now or that she's ever going to see it as worth the investment? Who knows?

What I do know is that you are not going to have time to invest what she will need in helping her rebuild and that even if you did, such a relationship would probably inhibit your own growth and development when you should be out building your own life and finding a parter, etc.

I'm guessing she didn't sacrifice herself and stay with your dad just to see you hindered and stunted by things she long ago accepted as part of the bargain.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
sorry- just woke up or would have answered the OP before!

Not sadistic- curious and occasionally a bit too blunt about it for some- but there's a difference between somebody who prods at somebody to hurt them and somebody who prods at somebody out of curiosity as to why they think a certain way.

Narcissitic? You come across as somewhat intellectually arrogant- like you have perfect faith in your own mind and ideas- It seems to come from the blunt way that you phrase things and the more certain terms you use (not very many qualifiers for you). Some of your posts reveal that you actually are a nice guy underneath who struggles with himself, but then you go back to being somewhat abrasive soon afterwards- almost like you're half ashamed to admit that you're human, even though your human side appears to be quite nice.

no- you're not a narcissistic, sadistic SOB, but you can come across as one sometimes- I just remind myself that you're a decent person beyond the abrasiveness :)
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
I think you're picking at your mom because you see yourself in her, and you want a reason for your being the way you are. I think if you felt better about yourself, you'd have more compassion for her faults, even if they are largely the same as yours. That doesn't mean you're a terrible person in general, but you have to realize that no one likes having their faults pointed out to them, especially when you tell them that watching them interact with their friends embarrasses you. It's just mean. What do you expect her to do, kiss your feet for making her see the light? Knowing you have a problem is only part of the solution, so in essence, you're just hurting her with the "knowledge" and giving her no hope to get better. Look, I'm an INTP, and I have had to learn the hard way, too, that not everyone wants to hear our brilliant insight just because we think it's nifty. Especially not unsolicited. Especially not when it has to do with their flaws.

I have enjoyed your posts here and on INTPc, and generally think you are very insightful, and you seem like a cool guy to me. In this particular case, I think your mother is right. You weren't thinking of her. You were trying to deal with your own issues through her, without thinking of how it would make her feel.
 

disregard

mrs
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
7,826
MBTI Type
INFP
An unhealthy narcissist would not question whether or not he is one. So if you do possess narcissistic tendencies (which I do not doubt, as you've mentioned your father is one).. they certainly aren't as malignant as you think they might be. Of course, I'm sure you've got an ex-girlfriend somewhere who's just dying to give me the 411 on that matter. The only way to know is to examine your close personal relationships.. it's hard to uncover the truth about yourself by asking relative strangers whom of which have never been subject to the sadistic tendencies you allude to.
 

runvardh

にゃん
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
8,541
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
My mother needs all the life advice she can get, but I refrain because it's a pointless excercise in futility. I've only told my mother what I think when she asks and only comment on what she's asking about. I've hurt her repeatedly doing this when she's asking for it. But, yeah, don't offer if it's not asked for. She's an adult, let her hit the wall herself if she's blind to it. You have no responsibility to her.

However, no, you're not narcissistic or sadistic.
 

CzeCze

RETIRED
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
8,975
MBTI Type
GONE
<placeholder for future comments>

Ooh, I so do want to contribute.

I'll say for right now I used to think you could be so blunt and out of left-field with your unsolicited comments and observations that I thought you were kinda mean.

Sometimes they were done with obvious humor and could be funny (partly in the way things are when you go, wow, I can't believe they said that) so I figured you just lacked that level of social propriety and awareness of other's feelings that comes more naturally to NFs. And/or just had a more 'blunt' sense of humor which is not uncommon IRL, especially amongst guys, and especially amongst NTs.

I didn't think you were doing it on purpose to be a jerk though -- or not as big of a jerk as some people might think. In fact I got the impression you were mostly oblivious to the fact how someone might personally take something you say. So, true to type in that way. :rolli:

But I don't think (like others I've seen) you get pompous or defensive about it, as if you are somehow above emotional peons and feelings are for losers or you are uncomfortable with this facet of your personality. You like honesty, but I think kinda like Whatever alluded to, you have a hard time distinguishing from your own personal truth and the objective truth. Oftentimes trying to 'analyze people' comes down to your own POV after all.

So yes, emotionally navel gazing in that way as someone said. I think you are very thoughtful, even sensitive, you want to live correctly, and as an NT it gets expressed a bit clinically -- like you want to 'correct' people including yourself by focusing on their actions and telling them to 'fix' them. But as you can see, people generally don't respond well to that (look at how unpopular Dr. Phil is!) especially when unsolicited. And people will disagree with you on what is actually broken or in need of correction, i.e. POV.

And remember, INTPs can get really stuck inside their heads on one-track loops and generally need someone else to pull them out of it. Perhaps what you're doing here? So maybe not so much narcissistic, just stuck on a loop. Narcissistic implies you assume you are better than everyone and are inherently deserving of more and better things in life. It's a little different from self-consciousness or the 'self-focus' that comes from therapy. But again, I guess it would be up to friends and ex-girlfriends to give a better picture!

Alright, I'll add more later! Time for class! Don't worry, I have more honest things in a kind, respectful tone to say. :)
 

hotmale

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
232
MBTI Type
ESTJ
<placeholder for future comments>

Ooh, I so do want to contribute.

I'll say for right now I used to think you could be so blunt and out of left-field with your unsolicited comments and observations that I thought you were kinda mean.

Sometimes they were done with obvious humor and could be funny (partly in the way things are when you go, wow, I can't believe they said that) so I figured you just lacked that level of social propriety and awareness of other's feelings that comes more naturally to NFs. And/or just had a more 'blunt' sense of humor which is not uncommon IRL, especially amongst guys, and especially amongst NTs.

I didn't think you were doing it on purpose to be a jerk though -- or not as big of a jerk as some people might think. In fact I got the impression you were mostly oblivious to the fact how someone might personally take something you say. So, true to type in that way. :rolli:

But I don't think (like others I've seen) you get pompous or defensive about it, as if you are somehow above emotional peons and feelings are for losers or you are uncomfortable with this facet of your personality. You like honesty, but I think kinda like Whatever alluded to, you have a hard time distinguishing from your own personal truth and the objective truth. Oftentimes trying to 'analyze people' comes down to your own POV after all.

So yes, emotionally navel gazing in that way as someone said. I think you are very thoughtful, even sensitive, you want to live correctly, and as an NT it gets expressed a bit clinically -- like you want to 'correct' people including yourself by focusing on their actions and telling them to 'fix' them. But as you can see, people generally don't respond well to that (look at how unpopular Dr. Phil is!) especially when unsolicited. And people will disagree with you on what is actually broken or in need of correction, i.e. POV.

And remember, INTPs can get really stuck inside their heads on one-track loops and generally need someone else to pull them out of it. Perhaps what you're doing here? So maybe not so much narcissistic, just stuck on a loop. Narcissistic implies you assume you are better than everyone and are inherently deserving of more and better things in life. It's a little different from self-consciousness or the 'self-focus' that comes from therapy. But again, I guess it would be up to friends and ex-girlfriends to give a better picture!

Alright, I'll add more later! Time for class! Don't worry, I have more honest things in a kind, respectful tone to say. :)

Those are great comments CzeCze, very analytical and observant.

I read somewhere that most successful people possess narcissistic traits- but when it becomes a personality disorder is when they are unable to function in society. I think what narcissists- the ones with problems- have in common is that they suffer from a deep hatred of themselves and of humanity.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
i think your mom's response was uncalled for. she was obviously lashing out because you hit a nerve. you just wanted her to contemplate that perspective so that maybe she'll change.

then again, you gotta be careful when you make observations of others to their faces; i have no idea what your tone was, maybe you were very gentile. but i somehow doubt that. i'm sure you wouldn't respond that way to an observation about yourself, but she seems very fragile...

btw, i have observations about everyone i surround myself with. my closest friends are the ones that can hear them (i know maybe 3, only 1 of whom i see on a somewhat regular basis). i wish i wasn't so sensitive to everyone else's feelings. you're lucky enough to be able to break through that. but you probably go too far sometimes...

but yeah, i think you do that because you want someone to do it to you. you want to be challenged...you just want to figure yourself out. but not everyone does...unfortunately.
 

Kanamori

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
361
I never figured you as one of the mean INTP's. The opposite actually, with streaks toward 'coldness' that any T would be able to understand.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Both, really. Mostly because it's not appropriate, I suppose. She's an adult. It's not written anywhere that you have to self-actualize if you don't want to. You aren't her therapist, you aren't her spouse, or her friend of thirty years, she doesn't want your involvement so it is no more appropriate for you to try to force your way in than it would be for you to do so with, say, a professor or an employer.

Helping her out wouldn't be enough. What you are doing is trying to pull little cards out of the bottom of her house. Would she be happier if she let it all fall down and rebuilt it on a better foundation? Probably. Does that mean she's ready to do it right now or that she's ever going to see it as worth the investment? Who knows?

What I do know is that you are not going to have time to invest what she will need in helping her rebuild and that even if you did, such a relationship would probably inhibit your own growth and development when you should be out building your own life and finding a parter, etc.

I'm guessing she didn't sacrifice herself and stay with your dad just to see you hindered and stunted by things she long ago accepted as part of the bargain.

Very good comments. Do you think there's any use in trying to help a person out by pointing out there flaws? I guess I'm not doing the right way, if there is a right way. I see my mom and see how she suffers and it bothers me. I deal with that by trying to point out her own suffering and make her stronger. My approach is shitty, but the question remains: do you have some kind of duty to help someone sort out their issues, even if that entails temporarily stirring things up for the worse? If so, how do you do that?
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Very good comments. Do you think there's any use in trying to help a person out by pointing out there flaws? I guess I'm not doing the right way, if there is a right way. I see my mom and see how she suffers and it bothers me. I deal with that by trying to point out her own suffering and make her stronger. My approach is shitty, but the question remains: do you have some kind of duty to help someone sort out their issues, even if that entails temporarily stirring things up for the worse? If so, how do you do that?
The first thing is that pointing out someone's flaws is kind of putting yourself in a superior position. If the person solicits you for that and you are in a mentoring role, it can work. I haven't seen it work too well outside of that.

I don't think we do have a duty to help someone else sort out their issues unless they solicit it and even then the best approach is usually that of a listening ear. There really aren't any short-cuts to growth (with the possible exception of horrible catastrophe and it's best not to set those in motion intentionally). People just have to work out their own stuff most of the time and they usually have to get enough of it in order to be motivated to leave the hell they know, so to speak.

You can't fix people with a figurative hammer and screwdriver. The best you can do is just be there and be supportive while they do the real work themselves. I think you are using a hammer/screwdriver approach and to me, that is an impatient approach. It may make you feel better right now, but it doesn't really do the other person much good. It just hurts.

FWIW, I don't think you should assume that your mother's willingness to take stuff she maybe shouldn't is necessarily weakness. Sometimes people choose to carry a heavier load because they believe they can do it more easily than others because they know they are strong.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
UPDATE

Well, my mom and I just had a talk. Here's what we figured out:

1. I don't respect her opinion. I dismiss her opinion like my father dismisses other people's opinions unless they can out-logic him.
2. A small part of me really wants to help my mom, but mostly, I use her as a punching bag. I must have some sadism in me. I actually think it has a lot to do with outgrouping and aggression. I don't see my mom as part of the ingroup (because I don't respect her opinion) and compete with her instead of cooperate. Thank you, social psychology.
3. I might be projecting my anger onto my mom and then making her feel shitty for it because I'm unable to deal with these same issues.
4. It's hard for me to respect my mother as she always seems to be getting out of people's way and submitting to them. My father treats her with little respect, she treats herself with little respect, and I treat her with little respect.

The strangest part of this whole thing is how relaxed I am about all this. I even felt the urge to laugh at a couple points.
 

Seanan

Procrastinating
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
954
MBTI Type
INTJ
It was recently been pointed out by my mother that I'm a narcissistic sadist who enjoys watching people get angry. I contend that I do it to better people even though my questions might be blunt. Still, there's some truth to what my mom said -- I do have a tendency to fixate on people who are weaker than I, find their buttons, and exploit them.


I'm not looking for people to validate me or to create an argument for the OP, just to tell me if they've really thought this about me or not. Please don't pull any punches. Even Jen. I won't be defensive; in fact, I won't even answer unless someone asks me a specific question. Thanks.

There's a problem with your logic. If your goal really is to "better people," the best way is to first create a comfortable relationship with them. Self-appointed therapists, like yourself, haven't been trained in that skill. As an INTP, I think you know your "reason" for being an a$$hole is a cop out.

For most of us, no one knows us better than our mothers. Maybe you should give some thought to what she says? Could it be that she actually wants to see you become successful in relationships? Doesn't knowledge on how to accomplish that start with being successful at the longest term ones you've had? If you're not successful in those, what does your future hold?

How the truth is spoken is a choice.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
There's a problem with your logic. If your goal really is to "better people," the best way is to first create a comfortable relationship with them. Self-appointed therapists, like yourself, haven't been trained in that skill. As an INTP, I think you know your "reason" for being an a$$hole is a cop out.

I think you're right, with the caveat that the formal training is irrelevant. Informal training can be just valid.

How the truth is spoken is a choice.

True.
 
Top