[NT] Eight NTs more likely INTJs

[Ezra]

Because of reading this:

It is in their abilities that Masterminds differ from the other Rationals, while in most of their attitudes they are just like the others. However there is one attitude that sets them apart from other Rationals: they tend to be much more self-confident than the rest, having, for obscure reasons, developed a very strong will. They are rather rare, comprising no more than, say, one percent of the population. Being very judicious, decisions come naturally to them; indeed, they can hardly rest until they have things settled, decided, and set. They are the people who are able to formulate coherent and comprehensive contingency plans, hence contingency organizers or "entailers."

Reading Keirsey, I came to learn that the NT had a deep underlying sense of self-doubt and pessimism, but the INTJ seems to defy this notion.

 

[Night]

"The world is an unjust place. I am strong and I defend the innocent."

5w8

 

[Ezra]

*Gasp* So the legends are true. The 5w8 exists!

If you think you are a 5w8, Night, it's most likely that you are either a Five who has integrated into or who is secure at Eight, or an Eight much like myself; one who doesn't fit the typical picture of a "gutsy" kind of boss (I think was the way Palmer put it in The Enneagram in Love and Work).

 

[Night]

Very true, Ezra - this arrangement might explain why I'm notoriously difficult to type.


I'm quite gentle, but have an intense dislike for those who would fleece others for personal gain.

My disdain for bullies strikes an uneasy balance with my intensity for compassion.

 

[The Ü™]

*Gasp* So the legends are true. The 5w8 exists!

Not a 5w8, it's the line that connects 5 and 8 or 5 and 7. The wing is the neighboring type, in 5's case, 4 or 6. No, the 5 with an 8 wing does not exist -- the 5 with an 8 line does.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm quite gentle, but have an intense dislike for those who would fleece others for personal gain.

A woman I knew, often referred to by others as the "outgoing type", would present herself as being affable and easy to approach. Ultimately this was a ruse, designed to attract others to sate her needs for external stimuli and companionship.

An intellectual I knew, quite the clever fellow, came across as interested in deconstructing modes of thought and ideas for greater knowledge, but in the end his concern was only culling data from the external world to develop his personal theories and models.

A business type I once met would present himself as being interested in peddling his wares and services in the belief that they would make easier the lives of others. In truth, he wanted simply to profit so that he could grow his business.

The list goes on. Every one of these people, fleecing others for their own gain.

Sickening.

 

[Night]

A woman I knew, often referred to by others as the "outgoing type", would present herself as being affable and easy to approach. Ultimately this was a ruse, designed to attract others to sate her needs for external stimuli and companionship.

An intellectual I knew, quite the clever fellow, came across as interested in deconstructing modes of thought and ideas for greater knowledge, but in the end his concern was only culling data from the external world to develop his personal theories and models.

A business type I once met would present himself as being interested in peddling his wares and services in the belief that they would make easier the lives of others. In truth, he wanted simply to profit so that he could grow his business.

The list goes on. Every one of these people, fleecing others for their own gain.

Sickening.

Ha - and in each, we find ourselves. Well said, Mycroft.


In the end, my concerns are with the more...preventable.

 

[Ezra]

I'm quite gentle, but have an intense dislike for those who would fleece others for personal gain.

This contradicts neither Five or Eight (although it would certainly make 8w9 more likely). Also, I don't understand why you use "but". Surely you could be both gentle and have an intense dislike for those who would fleece others for personal gain.

My disdain for bullies strikes an uneasy balance with my intensity for compassion.

Again, I don't understand the conflict. How is it "uneasy"? No one likes bullies. It is indicative of neither type. I'd like to know how your compassion manifests itself before drawing any conclusions about type.

Not a 5w8, it's the line that connects 5 and 8 or 5 and 7. The wing is the neighboring type, in 5's case, 4 or 6. No, the 5 with an 8 wing does not exist -- the 5 with an 8 line does.

I was joking.

 

[elfinchilde]

Very true, Ezra - this arrangement might explain why I'm notoriously difficult to type.


I'm quite gentle, but have an intense dislike for those who would fleece others for personal gain.
My disdain for bullies strikes an uneasy balance with my intensity for compassion.

This contradicts neither Five or Eight (although it would certainly make 8w9 more likely). Also, I don't understand why you use "but". Surely you could be both gentle and have an intense dislike for those who would fleece others for personal gain.



Again, I don't understand the conflict. How is it "uneasy"? No one likes bullies. It is indicative of neither type. I'd like to know how your compassion manifests itself before drawing any conclusions about type.

I was joking.

1) Because the depth of his gentleness means his intense dislike includes a propensity for violence towards those who would fleece others. It is a gentleness which paradoxically includes a latent capability for violence. Hence the 'but'.

2) Because it is the bullies for which Night feels compassion.

 

[Night]

1) Because the depth of his gentleness means his intense dislike includes a propensity for violence towards those who would fleece others. It is a gentleness which paradoxically includes a latent capability for violence. Hence the 'but'.

2) Because it is the bullies for which Night feels compassion.

Quite impressive, elfinchilde.

Your insight is peerless.

 

[elfinchilde]

Quite impressive, elfinchilde.

Your insight is peerless.

Alternatively, it may simply mean I'm becoming a butterfly's head appendage. i.e., a Feeler.

 

[The Ü™]

I never liked Keirsey's description of the INTJ, at least not in Please Understand Me II. I do, however, think his description in Lifexplore fits me well -- I believe that description was in the original Please Understand Me. Kroeger's description in Type Talk is dead-on in describing me. I was actually an underachiever in high school and was often placed in remedial classes, although this was mostly because of my iconoclastic behavior more than anything, but regardless, I was never really that good in school, period, unless the subject either interested me or related directly to my internal conceptions.

I enjoy probing the external world and looking to see how things can be improved. I'm mostly comfortable with that kind of open-ended thinking, but I also want a clear structure and order in my daily life. Like the INTJ description in Type Talk, I get absorbed in an idea that I never get down to its practical reality because detail work makes me impatient. And like Beren's description of the Conceptualizer Director, I'm more confident of giving the blueprints to others to realize and coordinating their efforts. Unlike the Ti-dominant INTP, I am not interested in pure logic.

I do share tendencies with the ENTP in that I like to play Devil's Advocate and debate issues for fun along with bounce ideas off of others and have brainstorming sessions, but my Ne is also well-developed.

But I am not an 8. I'm not very self-confident of realizing my ideas like the 8 would be, and I'm certainly not outgoing. However, my 5 is lined more to 8 than it is to 7. And my wings are strong on both 4 and 6, only marginally stronger at 4.

 

[Metamorphosis]

I wouldn't consider an INTJ any more likely to be an 8 than an ENTJ.

 

[The Ü™]

I wouldn't consider an INTJ any more likely to be an 8 than an ENTJ.

I tend to think the INTJ 8 is more likely to be 8w9 while the ENTJ 8 will more likely be an 8w7.

 

[Metamorphosis]

I tend to think the INTJ 8 is more likely to be 8w9 while the ENTJ 8 will more likely be an 8w7.

Good point. I'd have to agree.

 

[Maverick]

No, it's ENTJ's. INTJ's are nowhere near as assertive and outspoken.

 

[redacted]

No, it's ENTJ's. INTJ's are nowhere near as assertive and outspoken.

seriously. Te dom has to be more assertive than Ni dom...

 

[redacted]

1) Because the depth of his gentleness means his intense dislike includes a propensity for violence towards those who would fleece others. It is a gentleness which paradoxically includes a latent capability for violence. Hence the 'but'.

2) Because it is the bullies for which Night feels compassion.

what about type 1?

not to derail...

 

[Athenian200]

Why do INTJ's (at least two that I know now) seem to be unable to comprehend the underlying nature of a system (such as the enneagram) and the delicate interconnections and interdependencies of it, and that breaking it just to describe your personality in a way you think is accurate is to forfeit much of the functionality that made the system more useful than a more simplistic archetype system?

I think it makes more sense to design a more comprehensive system from the ground up based on principles taken from an existing system, rather than breaking and force-fitting things in ways that render it useless for anything other than your intended use.

I would have to say that an INTJ's strong-willed spirit of determination to reach their visions is probably their real strength.

This "system breaking" is one trait of INTJ's that I find particularly annoying, although I like them overall.

 

[The Ü™]

Why do INTJ's (at least two that I know now) seem to be unable to comprehend the underlying nature of a system (such as the enneagram) and the delicate interconnections and interdependencies of it, and that breaking it just to describe your personality in a way you think is accurate is to forfeit much of the functionality that made the system more useful than a more simplistic archetype system?

We're not interested in comprehending systems, we're interested in either:

• Giving the system our own meaning, either by:
  • Changing its existing meaning, because we don't see any real reason why, for example, the 8 is an aggressive, cold-hearted bastard while the 4 is a wimpy crybaby -- why not have the 4 be the evil bastard while the 8 is the wimp?
    • With that said, why not distort the meaning so that it could accord with the way we want things to be?
      • Example: I want to be an 8 because 8 is a cool number, so now 8 will come to mean that I am a wimp.
    • Since the Enneagram was created by man, anyway, I don't see why it shouldn't be distorted by man.
  • Understanding what it means to us -- what it makes us think of -- in a way that is totally unrelated to anything external.
• Using the system against our enemies by:
  • Using its ideas to manipulate a mindless crowd.
    • However, I'm not sure if the Enneagram is entirely useful for that purpose.
  • Turning it into a physical weapon of some sort.
    • Again, I'm not sure how the Enneagram could be useful for this purpose.

Bottom line is that:

• We are not interested in understanding the environment, we INTJs are interested in using it to:
  • Stimulate our own minds.
  • Applying it to our own theoretical models.
    • Examples:
      • Finding and keeping a hammer and nails because I know it will be useful for building that tool shed I've conceptualized in my mind.
      • Taking a calculus course not because I'm interested in it, but so I can have more efficient ways of making my roller coaster design ideas into something more tangible.
      • Getting my hands on advanced CGI technology so that I can realize my far-out visions for a movie in a relatively small amount of time.
        • I intuit this is how George Lucas' mind works and this is why I stand by the notion that he is an INTJ.
          • Anyone who disagrees with me ought to be sterilized.
  • Basically probe for external possibilities as a means to effectively communicate our visions.
• We INTJs are not necessarily interested in coming up with new ways of doing things as much as we are interested in getting our conceptions out in the open by any means necessary.
• We are also not necessarily interested in communicating in symbols, we are interested in making our visions into a concrete reality, which means:
  • In our creative works, we are not interested in asking more questions or in communicating in ridiculous and phony metaphors. We're NJs, we want closure.
  • We are not really interested in communicating symbolism in our work, we are interested in making our abstract conceptions as concrete as possible.
  • We are interested in making in impact, not through physical expression, but through the expression of ideas.