[NT] Negotiating salary from the NT perspective

[JDG26]

And another good point MoneyTick made, is that so often these negotiations are full of empty demands and rhetoric. And that's what I hate about them.

"We'll pay you X."
"No, I need Y."
"We'll give you X + 1, but not Y"
"How about Y - 1"

There's no real substance in a discussion like that. It's just a power struggle and who is willing to give in first and you never know what the other party's breaking point is - the point in which they will say, "Just forget the whole thing. We'll look elsewhere." It's just a huge guessing game. All the more reason that pay should be based on results, I suppose.

Correct, it is a power struggle that you will lose. You will be replaced with a person who follows orders. A TJ type will make the decision without your input. If they like you, they will go their boss and make the case. Your input does not mean sh.. to them. It is their world, their plan, their office, ad infin.

 

[MoneyTick]

You're a typical INTP getting lost in the what ifs (details). A J has his/her mind made up about you, and there is not a damn thing you can do to change it.

And what if the ENTJ has made up his mind the Mr. INTPness is qualified for the position?

As you stated, the ENTJ is interested in getting the plan executed by virtue of hiring qualified people that will get the job done right.

If Mr. INTPness can get the job done right, and be an accessory to the organization's goals - wouldn't it make sense for the ENTJ to hire him/her?

If INTPness can prove that he/she is valuable, then it would make perfect sense to have him be a part of the organization.

Pleading for mercy will not move an NTJ, revealing potential value for the NTJs goals will.

 

[JDG26]

Correct, it is a power struggle that you will lose. You will be replaced with a person who follows orders. A TJ type will make the decision without your input. If they like you, they will go their boss and make the case. Your input does not mean sh.. to them. It is their world, their plan, their office, ad infin.

INTPs think that intelligence and competence will get them what they desire, but that is just not true in most settings. INTPs are better off as entrepreneurs, programmers, scientists, professors, etc. Flee from the corporate setting unless you're the owner.

 

[rav3n]

It is rarely about one's experience and/or competence when dealing with the TJ; they have a plan and expectations and you are there to take orders. You're a typical INTP, running all the what ifs in your mind. Now, you can negotiate with Fs, they actually care about people's lives, etc. I would leave the job before your boss trashes your self esteem.

You're a typical INTP getting lost in the what ifs (details). A J has his/her mind made up about you, and there is not a damn thing you can do to change it. I am an INTP and my wife is a ENTJ (property manager). The TJs are always moving personnel around (hiring and firing) in pursuit of the perfect implementation of their plans. You are nothing but a worthless cog to your boss regardless of your experience and competence. He/She will replace you with someone more of their liking. Your replacement may very well be far less competent and/or experienced, but what matters is that they take orders.

You don't understand NTJs very well. If you believe what you've spouted, your belief stems from a mistyping of your wife. E/ISTJ. Either that or you've bought into the Kiersey Kook-aid.

We E/INTJs come in all kinds of sizes and shapes, same as INTPs. Clone behaviour is the byproduct of a simple mind.

 

[INTPness]

INTPs are not well adapted to the corporate world or office settings. INTPs always question authority, even if the questioning is not overt or even intended. What matters most in a corporate/office setting is fit.

We're a little bit "on the fringe" - I will grant you that. We often feel confined by corporate "structure". I'll even grant you that the corporate world may not be the single best fit for us career wise. But, that doesn't mean that we are incapable of functioning (and functioning well) in that setting. We are flexible, competent people who can do what we put our mind to. You give INTP's a bad name by implying that we can't function in certain settings. We can function if we choose to function - and at a very high level to boot.

 

[JDG26]

And what if the ENTJ has made up his mind the Mr. INTPness is qualified for the position?

As you stated, the ENTJ is interested in getting the plan executed by virtue of hiring qualified people that will get the job done right.

If Mr. INTPness can get the job done right, and be an accessory to the organization's goals - wouldn't it make sense for the ENTJ to hire him/her?

If INTPness can prove that he/she is valuable, then it would make perfect sense to have him be a part of the organization.

The I/ENTJ already knows exactly how to execute their plan; they do not want input. Competence and/or experience means little to them. They will have a map laid out and the employee is there to do what is noted. TJs work very long hours going over details and controlling every aspect of their plan. While Mr. INTPness may be very well qualified and deserving of a raise, he almost certainly comes on as an employee who questions the boss (even implicitly by adding input).

 

[JDG26]

You don't understand NTJs very well. If you believe what you've spouted, your belief stems from a mistyping of your wife. E/ISTJ. Either that or you've bought into the Kiersey Kook-aid.

We E/INTJs come in all kinds of sizes and shapes, same as INTPs. Clone behaviour is the byproduct of a simple mind.

No, the typologies cannot be fitted into all sizes and shapes. That undermines the purpose of the typologies.

 

[JDG26]

We're a little bit "on the fringe" - I will grant you that. We often feel confined by corporate "structure". I'll even grant you that the corporate world may not be the single best fit for us career wise. But, that doesn't mean that we are incapable of functioning (and functioning well) in that setting. We are flexible, competent people who can do what we put our mind to. You give INTP's a bad name by implying that we can't function in certain settings. We can function if we choose to function - and at a very high level to boot.

INTPs do not function well in corporate settings. I have the experience of working in both corporate and academic settings. I am working as a professor now, but I did work as a urban planner in both private and government settings.

 

[MoneyTick]

The I/ENTJ already knows exactly how to execute their plan; they do not want input. Competence and/or experience means little to them. They will have a map laid out and the employee is there to do what is noted. TJs work very long hours going over details and controlling every aspect of their plan. While Mr. INTPness may be very well qualified and deserving of a raise, he almost certainly comes on as an employee who questions the boss (even implicitly by adding input).

I disagree.

I am always eager to hear what other people have to say about my plans. Albeit, I usually seek the council of other NTs since other types may get too emotional or creative about a plan.

The totalitarian steamrollling king of the hill type of manager would be an INTJ. Whereby, the INTJs plans are not open for interpretation and any discourse would be settled with a "just shut up and do it."

I have to agree that yes, I do want things done my way - but I will always embrace other's ideas if they can offer a better way that I like.

I always foster an environment that revolves around discussion and input, however, my J "filter" will rule out only the best viable alternatives that I will incorporation into the plan.

 

[INTPness]

INTPs do not function well in corporate settings. I have the experience of working in both corporate and academic settings. I am working as a professor now, but I did work as a urban planner in both private and government settings.

I also have experience in both corporate and academic settings. Here's what you are missing:

YOU didn't perform well in corporate.
Don't project that on to me. I've done well in every position I've ever been in - whether corporate or academic. I've been happier in some than others - and that's where I agree with you that corporate isn't necessarily the best fit for INTP's - but that's where our agreement ends. Just because you were unable to perform in a corporate setting, doesn't mean that I'm incapable in the same setting. I might face similar struggles since we are both INTP, but your failure does not mean that I am doomed to fail as well.

 

[JDG26]

No I won't. Speak for yourself.



You're jaded and cynical. I understand that there are differences and sometimes those differences are large. But, they are not so large that two reasonable human beings cannot work through the differences in a professional manner.

Yes, I am quite cynical but I am realistic. Success in these settings is a power struggle where promotions, etc. are based on subjective assessments of fit rather than competence and/or experience.

Remember the professor who went boinkers and shot her colleagues? She possesed competence and was really stellar in her research. They did not grant her tenure because she was perceived to be a bad fit. The department was not looking for stellar scholars; they were content with mediocrities doing meddling research.

When I interviewed at a state university, an old dean took be aside and told me: "Son, the most important thing in making tenure is your relationships with your colleagues and the chair." He told me it was important to make relationships outside of my department because such persons might end up on your tenure committee. If they don't know you well, they will base their decisions on hearsay, intuition, rumors, politics, etc.

 

[JDG26]

I disagree.

I am always eager to hear what other people have to say about my plans. Albeit, I usually seek the council of other NTs since other types may get too emotional or creative about a plan.

The totalitarian steamrollling king of the hill type of manager would be an INTJ. Whereby, the INTJs plans are not open for interpretation and any discourse would be settled with a "just shut up and do it."

I have to agree that yes, I do want things done my way - but I will always embrace other's ideas if they can offer a better way that I like.

I always foster an environment that revolves around discussion and input, however, my J "filter" will rule out only the best viable alternatives that I will incorporation into the plan.

You're the rare TJ who has matured, probably through adverse circumstances, etc. You've were thwarted at some point from continuing to exercise totalitarian tactics, i.e. temper tantrums, yelling, hitting, etc.

 

[JDG26]

You're the rare TJ who has matured, probably through adverse circumstances, etc. You've were thwarted at some point from continuing to exercise totalitarian tactics, i.e. temper tantrums, yelling, hitting, etc.

STJs can be excellent leaders. The contention between Captain Sobel (INTP) and Maj. Winters (ESTJ) in Band of Brothers comes to mind.

 

[INTPness]

I have a question for JDG. Answer it honestly. Do you think INTP's are inherently "better people" than TJ's? That's where your viewpoints seem to stem from.

-you show support for the professor who didn't get tenure
-you imply that MoneyTick is one of the few TJ's who have reached any level of maturity
-you imply that TJ's are virtually incapable of veering from their original plans
-you imply that TJ's are incapable of receiving new input and incorporating it into their plan

I know you don't see it, but it comes off severely jaded. As if you yourself have been passed up for tenure or slighted by a TJ. You, my fellow INTP, can do anything you put your mind to. You are limiting yourself and your own thinking. If a TJ (or 10 of them) have slighted you, look within to overcome that instead of blaming them for the shortcomings, whatever they may be. At the end of the day, it's nobody else's fault whether you have achieved your dreams or not. It's just not. If you see life as a game of chess and you don't carry out what you set out to do, it's not the other chess pieces who are to blame. It's your own strategy and/or maneuvers that were faulty.

 

[slowriot]

And another good point MoneyTick made, is that so often these negotiations are full of empty demands and rhetoric. And that's what I hate about them.

"We'll pay you X."
"No, I need Y."
"We'll give you X + 1, but not Y"
"How about Y - 1"

There's no real substance in a discussion like that. It's just a power struggle and who is willing to give in first and you never know what the other party's breaking point is - the point in which they will say, "Just forget the whole thing. We'll look elsewhere." It's just a huge guessing game. All the more reason that pay should be based on results, I suppose.

you need to show your value is worth more than what the minimum reqiurements are in the ad for you to have an upperhand in getting higher wages. Additional demands or clauses should ony be brought in depending on what the job position is. Like an evaluation period if you work in sales and if specific goals set in the contract are not satisfactorily met you'll go down in wages.

Personally Id not go with the asslicking even for a manager position, those kind of people lack dignity and are pathetic parasites thats usually lacks talent. If you want to advance take control of your working life, make a plan, show you want to advance by taking the neccesary courses and so on to get there. Be an asset not an asslicker.

 

[INTPness]

Be an asset not an asslicker.

Duly noted.

 

[strawberries]

it seems you want the job too much to be in a truly strong negotiating position. you're not prepared to walk away. that's dangerous when negotiating with an entj - they can smell fear.

i would not advise drafting a letter with words like 'employees are a corporation's life blood' in it, as was suggested earlier. i had a ruthless prick entj boss for a while - he'd laugh his arse off at that kind of clichéd schmaltz. you need to present yourself as valuable/unique, but do it in an original, engaging way.

without knowing more about the role/sector/your experience it is difficult to provide you with new angles/leverage. any advice we provide here will be quite general and likely be things you've already considered.

good luck with your new job - it's pretty clear you're going to take his offer.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

To be honest, I did not have the patience to read through all the responses so my apologies if this has already been suggested and/or addressed.

I have been in a similar situation (although I never gave a thought to his type) and my solution after the second round of negotiation was to accept the second offer with a specific timeline of when my performance (and salary) would be reviewed. A sort of probationary period, if you will. I found this to be beneficial because:
#1 I had a job!
#2 I had a timeline for when I wanted to see improvement in my compensation
#3 If my expectations were not going to be met, I had a time-frame within which I could explore other options

 

[JDG26]

I have a question for JDG. Answer it honestly. Do you think INTP's are inherently "better people" than TJ's? That's where your viewpoints seem to stem from.

-you show support for the professor who didn't get tenure
-you imply that MoneyTick is one of the few TJ's who have reached any level of maturity
-you imply that TJ's are virtually incapable of veering from their original plans
-you imply that TJ's are incapable of receiving new input and incorporating it into their plan

I know you don't see it, but it comes off severely jaded. As if you yourself have been passed up for tenure or slighted by a TJ. You, my fellow INTP, can do anything you put your mind to. You are limiting yourself and your own thinking. If a TJ (or 10 of them) have slighted you, look within to overcome that instead of blaming them for the shortcomings, whatever they may be. At the end of the day, it's nobody else's fault whether you have achieved your dreams or not. It's just not. If you see life as a game of chess and you don't carry out what you set out to do, it's not the other chess pieces who are to blame. It's your own strategy and/or maneuvers that were faulty.

No, I never said that INTPs are superior; we certainly have our inherent faults. So what if I show support for the professor that did not receive tenure. It does not mean I support what she did. She has a history of mental illness. She did deserve tenure based on her research.

My comments are mainly about the dynamics between INTPs and TJs in particular. As I noted, TJs often make excellent leaders because they gain respect rather easily and they follow through. I used an example from Band of Brothers: Captain Sobel (INTP) lost his position to Maj. Winters (ESTJ) even though technically Sobel did everything "right", e.g. exhibited competence. The ESTJ overrode Sobel and indeed did turn out to be a respected and feared leader.

And, those characteristics of TJs are for the most part correct. That is why they make good leaders. General Patton is another good example. He did not listen to others even his superior officers (higher ranking generals). He came very close to getting canned several times. He had a powerful will to push his plans through.

And, I don't feel limited at all. I've always been a very independent person, which has often got me in trouble with authority figures. I did not fail to receive tenure and my prospects are excellent. I have several degrees including a PhD from Ivy League universities. Persons oriented inwards towards ideals often have a difficult time getting along with "doers" like the ESTJs. And, yes some TJs can mature just like some INTPs can mature (maybe you are one of them). This usually comes through facing very adverse situations where one is forced to come face-to-face with one's faults. I've been there. I am not a feeling person, although I understand emotion via analysis and observation.

 

[JDG26]

it seems you want the job too much to be in a truly strong negotiating position. you're not prepared to walk away. that's dangerous when negotiating with an entj - they can smell fear.

i would not advise drafting a letter with words like 'employees are a corporation's life blood' in it, as was suggested earlier. i had a ruthless prick entj boss for a while - he'd laugh his arse off at that kind of clichéd schmaltz. you need to present yourself as valuable/unique, but do it in an original, engaging way.

without knowing more about the role/sector/your experience it is difficult to provide you with new angles/leverage. any advice we provide here will be quite general and likely be things you've already considered.

good luck with your new job - it's pretty clear you're going to take his offer.

Good analysis! It reflects what I said about ESTJs' instincts.