[NT] Negotiating salary from the NT perspective

[INTPness]

I'm negotiating salary with a prospective employer. Having met him a few times now, I can see he is ENTJ. He offered x, I counter-offered with y (plus a small incentive). He then came back and said, "x is the absolute highest that HR will allow me to go. The organization has recently hired 2 individuals that will be doing the same work you will be doing and they have at least as much experience as you, if not more. That is HR's justification. But I will personally throw in the small incentive out of my own operating budget. So, I can offer you x plus the incentive, but not y."

Questions: my gut tells me to say, "I can't do it for x. I need a little bit more than x. I can accept if you can't pay me y, but I need more than x (the gap between x and y is roughly a 17% difference)." I think he is playing hardball and putting me to a decision - he's saying, "last offer buddy."

I want to call what I believe to be a bluff, but then there's the chance I won't get called back.

a) For those of you who have negotiation skills, what are your thoughts here?
b) Would ENTJ's be more prone to respect you more if you played hardball back and showed that you were willing to walk away on principle?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Do you have other options for employment?

 

[INTPness]

Good question. The answer to that is that I don't have anything lined up. I can find work, but of course it would take more time. I'd really like to have this job, to be honest. The work environment would clearly be the best I've ever worked in (facilities, office, the city it's in, the vacation time, etc.)

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Well... I'd say its a gamble.

And that sounds like a legit argument he has.

It actually sounds like he's telling you he would be forced to hire someone else with similar qual's before HR would allow him to pay you more.

 

[INTPness]

That is basically what he is saying. But, my intuition (lol, this is an MBTI website) tells me it's a bluff. I really do believe at this point that he cannot pay me y. I think I came in a bit high with my counter-offer. But, I do believe he can pay more than x and since gap is significant between what I'm asking for and what he's offering, there's got to be wiggle room. I personally believe that he's playing "the big bad HR department" against me.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

If you're confident swing for the fences...

Just know the stakes and don't ask for too much more.

 

[rav3n]

It really depends on how the ENTJ normally operates and what restrictions are hard coded into their corporate culture. Without more information, it's difficult to say.

Whenever I went into negotiations, I was fully prepared to walk away. This was from either side of the fence. You can't negotiate from a position of weakness and in your case, fear of losing this opportunity.

Can you also expand on what this incentive is comprised of without giving detail? I do have a reason for asking since there might be flexibility in this area.

Also, I'm a bit confused. Since when does an employee's salary not come out of a manager's operating budget?

 

[INTPness]

It really depends on how the ENTJ normally operates and what restrictions are hard coded into their corporate culture. Without more information, it's difficult to say.

Whenever I went into negotiations, I was fully prepared to walk away. This was from either side of the fence. You can't negotiate from a position of weakness and in your case, fear of losing this opportunity.

Can you also expand on what this incentive is comprised of without giving detail? I do have a reason for asking since there might be flexibility in this area.

Also, I'm a bit confused. Since when does an employee's salary not come out of a manager's operating budget?

The incentive is moving expenses. In this situation, the organization received money to put towards expansion - they wanted to bring in people that would help the organization grow. So, a few of the departments were told, "You must hire someone into this new position with these funds." The ENTJ didn't necessarily want to or need to (I honestly don't know his thoughts, but another interviewer told me he didn't even think the position was necessary - he thought it was a waste - lol). So, he has to hire someone. Another thing in my favor here is that I was given inside info that I was the onlly person they considered and interviewed (that doesn't mean they couldn't interview more later) and that I have that as leverage and that I should take a hard line in the negotiation process because they will certainly try to low ball me. So far it's playing out exactly the way this guy said it would because what they are offering, is indeed very low for the position.

 

[rav3n]

The incentive is moving expenses. In this situation, the organization received money to put towards expansion - they wanted to bring in people that would help the organization grow. So, a few of the departments were told, "You must hire someone into this new position with these funds." The ENTJ didn't necessarily want to or need to (I honestly don't know his thoughts, but another interviewer told me he didn't even think the position was necessary - he thought it was a waste - lol). So, he has to hire someone. Another thing in my favor here is that I was given inside info that I was the onlly person they considered and interviewed (that doesn't mean they couldn't interview more later) and that I have that as leverage and that I should take a hard line in the negotiation process because they will certainly try to low ball me. So, far it's playing out exactly that way because what they are offering, is indeed very low for the position.

Is your work output quantifiable enough for some kind of real step-up incentive bonusing and/or defined salary increase?

 

[INTPness]

Is your work output quantifiable enough for some kind of real step-up incentive bonusing and/or defined salary increase?

It is definitely quantifiable. After 1 year, these new positions are either going to get cut or re-funded, based on results. He mentioned to me that, "we see this as a position that can become very rewarding down the line." I said, "Well, I understand that nobody in the organization has gotten any increase of any kind in the last 3 years (total freeze on raises of any kind) and that, most likely, it will be the same way in 2011, so I can't bank on getting an increase." His response: "You are correct about that."

 

[rav3n]

It is definitely quantifiable. After 1 year, these new positions are either going to get cut or re-funded, based on results. He mentioned to me that, "we see this as a position that can become very rewarding down the line." I said, "Well, I understand that nobody in the organization has gotten any increase of any kind in the last 3 years (total freeze on raises of any kind) and that, most likely, it will be the same way in 2011, so I can't bank on getting an increase." His response: "You are correct about that."

So, you're risking relocating for a job that might get cut in a year and they're offering you 17% below what you want with no near future relief but willing to pay for part of your moving expenses. You're taking some risk especially considering the attitude of your potential employer that the position isn't necessary and he's being forced into hiring. No wonder he's using hard tactics. A possibility might be that he's trying to scare off prospectives and use the inability to hire talent as the excuse not to do so.

Are you sure you really want this job?

 

[INTPness]

So, you're risking relocating for a job that might get cut in a year and they're offering you 17% below what you want with no near future relief but willing to pay for part of your moving expenses. You're taking some risk especially considering the attitude of your potential employer that the position isn't necessary and he's being forced into hiring. No wonder he's using hard tactics. A possibility might be that he's trying to scare off prospectives and use the inability to hire talent as the excuse not to do so.

Are you sure you really want this job?

You make good points, but consider this: I actually want to relocate to this city. I'm single with no kids and I really like the place I'd be relocating to. It's in a city that has a lot of entrepreneurial things going on and people that I can work with on an entrepreneurial venture of mine. The move would be a good one, and the goal is that in 1 year, I'd be able to transition to being a business owner anways. That's all extra information, however. What I'm looking at is strictly salary right now: Can I squeeze more out of this situation? I know that nobody will have a "yes" or a "no", I just wanted to get different view points and/or insight on how employers might play the negotiating game.

 

[rav3n]

You make good points, but consider this: I actually want to relocate to this city. I'm single with no kids and I really like the place I'd be relocating to. It's in a city that has a lot of entrepreneurial things going on and people that I can work with on an entrepreneurial venture of mine. The move would be a good one, and the goal is that in 1 year, I'd be able to transition to being a business owner anways. That's all extra information, however. What I'm looking at is strictly salary right now: Can I squeeze more out of this situation? I know that nobody will have a "yes" or a "no", I just wanted to get different view points and/or insight on how employers might play the negotiating game.

The other employees being hired within the company at the same salary as he's offering, are they taking the same amount of risk as you are? If not, this could be a negotiating point for you. He doesn't need to know the relocating city is one you want to move to.

 

[INTPness]

The other employees being hired within the company at the same salary as he's offering, are they taking the same amount of risk as you are? If not, this could be a negotiating point for you. He doesn't need to know the relocating city is one you want to move to.

I don't know them or their personal situations. And, for all I know, he's telling a tall-tale about how much they got hired at. I can't take him at his word on that. Maybe I should take him at his word, but I'm not sure I believe it because it's a relatively low number.

Decisions, decisions!

 

[slowriot]

Id not just relocate for any job. Is there opportunities for similar jobs in the area within a certain timeframe? What are the prospects for growth in the region?

Since I dont know your line of work, why dont you ask for a guarantee that its more than 1-2 years of employment if you are to accept the low salary? Its a gamble, I know but atleast you'll be secure for some years, even if its at a low salary. And as long it pays your bills....

 

[rav3n]

Would you be willing to risk the loss of this job for another 8.5% increase in salary? You could work it on the angle of risk, that maybe he can go to HR and discuss the risk factor with them to see if they can meet you halfway. Out of curiosity, the moving expense thing. What percentage in relation to your requested salary did it equate to?

 

[INTPness]

Id not just relocate for any job. Is there opportunities for similar jobs in the area within a certain timeframe? What are the prospects for growth in the region?

Since I dont know your line of work, why dont you ask for a guarantee that its more than 1-2 years of employment if you are to accept the low salary? Its a gamble, I know but atleast you'll be secure for some years, even if its at a low salary. And as long it pays your bills....

1. I want to relocate. The relocation is a non-factor in this particular scenario.
2. I'm not too concerned if the job ends in a year. It's a job in my field of past experience that I will work until I'm in a position to transition out of it.

 

[INTPness]

Would you be willing to risk the loss of this job for another 8.5% increase in salary? You could work it on the angle of risk, that maybe he can go to HR and discuss the risk factor with them to see if they can meet you halfway. Out of curiosity, the moving expense thing. What percentage in relation to your requested salary did it equate to?

I won't give a percentage of salary, but the amount is enough to rent a place to live (first month and deposit), and still have enough left over for dinner and a movie if there are any cuties in the new city.

 

[INTPness]

And yes, Metaphor, you have a good point about using that angle. I'm not sure it's a strong angle, but it's an angle nonetheless. Might have to sleep on it.

 

[rav3n]

Ha ha, I was trying to get a feel for what percentage this incentive would have factored into his negotiating calculations!

Something else to consider if you're able to match your existing city to your potential city:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp

Anyways, I get the feeling you're taking this job so I'm going to wish you much luck in this.