[NT] NTPs and NTJs: Do you feel more in common with each other, or with STPs and STJs?

[Zarathustra]

NTPs: Do you feel more in common with the NTs on the other side of the tracks, or your STP brothers and sisters?

NTJs: Same question to you, but with regards to NTPs and STJs...









And here's the NF version of the same question...

 

[INTPness]

I do see similarities when I meet STP's - freewheeling, flexible, go-with-the-flow, calm, independent, a bit of a "rebel" at times (the whole "iconoclast" thing), but the way that other NT's think (NTJ's included) is just so much more alike. When I'm with one of my STP friends, it's very relaxed, crazy, and fun - in a "let's go do something we've never done before" kind of way. When I'm with one of my NTJ friends, it's more structured, intellectual, somewhat intense, but also fun in a "did you know that in 17th century France.......?" kind of way. Also, with NTJ's (it's both fun and annoying at the same time), it sometimes feels like the conversation is a big chess match.

They're both lots of fun, but in very different ways. I would say I feel closer to NTJ's, however.

 

[rav3n]

Do NTs feel closeness?

 

[Zarathustra]

I do see similarities when I meet STP's - freewheeling, flexible, go-with-the-flow, calm, independent, a bit of a "rebel" at times (the whole "iconoclast" thing), but the way that other NT's think (NTJ's included) is just so much more alike. When I'm with one of my STP friends, it's very relaxed, crazy, and fun - in a "let's go do something we've never done before" kind of way. When I'm with one of my NTJ friends, it's more structured, intellectual, somewhat intense, but also fun in a "did you know that in 17th century France.......?" kind of way. Also, with NTJ's (it's both fun and annoying at the same time), it sometimes feels like the conversation is a big chess match.

They're both lots of fun, but in very different ways. I would say I feel closer to NTJ's, however.

Phenomenal answer.

Do NTs feel closeness?

 

[Usehername]

I definitely feel closer to NFJs than any other personality set. We're in the same "space," and we like the same things, even if we're there for different reasons and because of different motivations.

 

[Zarathustra]

I definitely feel closer to NFJs than any other personality set. We're in the same "space," and we like the same things, even if we're there for different reasons and because of different motivations.

So you'd probably think NJ, NP, SJ, SP would be a better way to divide the types than Keirsey's method (NT, NF, SJ, SP)?

 

[Usehername]

So you'd probably think NJ, NP, SJ, SP would be a better way to divide the types than Keirsey's method (NT, NF, SJ, SP)?

I think it just depends on what you're describing and what your goals are. In terms of typing others and how they interact, I can see that Kiersey's method alerts you to roadblocks and priorities pretty effectively.

I just think "beingness" is more in line with the CP method: Ni, Ne, Si, Se aka NJ, NP, SJ, SP.

 

[Totenkindly]

I feel close to other TPs. We all approach life similarly. (Even ExTPs.)

I have a lot of trouble reading NTJs sometimes, depending on how well-rounded they are. I just can't get my head around them -- Ni leads to elusive conclusions for me, and Te can seem severe. I need more of their reasoning process explained, even while I'm trying to make the leap with them.

 

[Such Irony]

I feel the most in common with NTPs, followed by NTJs, then STJs, and lastly STPs. Even though ISTPs share the same dominant function, the fact that they have auxilary Se (which is very weak in me) and SP temperament (whose mindset tends to be very different from my own) makes us feel like worlds apart sometimes. I strangely enough identify with STJs more. I have pretty strong Si for an N type. With NTJs, the functions are different but at least they are in the same temperament so share some of the same core values but take a different approach to things.

 

[Zarathustra]

If you voted earlier in this thread, your vote unfortunately got erased.

It would be greatly appreciated if you were to vote again.

Thanks

 

[Amethyst]

What's with all this...'feeling' in here?

I think that I can relate more to STPs than NTJs, but then again I might be ESTP and not know it as I have as high Se function as Ne....So don't listen to me. I'm a bad example.

 

[rav3n]

To generalise, T over F, for ease of understanding. Drill down one level and TJs are easier to understand.

Keep in mind that being easier to understand doesn't necessarily mean having things in common or being able to connect.

Beyond that, it's on an individual basis.

 

[Zarathustra]

I think that I can relate more to STPs than NTJs, but then again I might be ESTP and not know it as I have as high Se function as Ne....So don't listen to me. I'm a bad example.

Noted.

See, I feel more in common with the STJs than the NTPs cuz Te is just such a different beast than Ti.

Based on the last test I took, my Si is either my lowest or second lowest function...

I do, however, understand the idea that NTs prefer to think more about abstract ideas than do STJs and STPs, and thus are more alike one another in that sense.

It really comes down to how much you value the similarity of abstract thinking vs. the sharing of the same judging function (Te vs Ti).

 

[Tallulah]

I seem to relate pretty well to INTPs and INTJs, and I feel like I connect easily with INFJs, especially here. I relate to female ENTPs, but not as much to male ones, for some reason. I can mostly relate to all IxTx on some level.

 

[highlander]

I feel things in common with both STJs and NTPs but edge slightly towards NTPs vs. having things in common equally.

It's interesting that the pull of intuition in a different attitude would feel stronger than having Te in common.

 

[Uytuun]

I feel equally close to both. ISTJs are fairly easy to be around, soothing...Te, but especially Fi is a factor in this. They are also dominant perceivers. On the other hand their SJness always, always leaves a distance. INTPs share an INT attitude towards life, a rarity that pervades every interaction, but at the same time the radically different personality make-up is ever-present and the dominant judging factor can have an alienating effect. I like high Ne in both types. I think the comfort vs. fascination factor may explain why the ISTJ I know best is female (I'm female too) and my INTP friends are mostly male.

 

[Totenkindly]

I feel equally close to both. ISTJs are fairly easy to be around, soothing...Te, but especially Fi is a factor in this. They are also dominant perceivers. On the other hand their SJness always, always leaves a distance. INTPs share an INT attitude towards life, a rarity that pervades every interaction, but at the same time the radically different personality make-up is ever-present and the dominant judging factor can have an alienating effect. I like high Ne in both types. I think the comfort vs. fascination factor may explain why the ISTJ I know best is female (I'm female too) and my INTP friends are mostly male.

Thanks for this. I understand what you mean by the ISTJ always seeming to have distance there... especially female ISTJs (for me). The male ISTJs, depending, seem able to natter away on lots of hobbyist areas that make them seem warmer to me or at least offer lots of points of connection; but the only ISTJ females I've known have been rather austere and, even if I can predict how they'll respond to something (so it's clear I "know" them), I don't feel any sort of personal warmth. There's always a gap.

The INTP/INTJ thing is just weird to me. Yes, there can be quite the commonality there, like two siblings seeing the same sorts of things but always missing each other's hands when they go to say goodbye. (Well, if INTx's actually said goodbye, rather than just mumbling something indecipherable while playing their games or reading their books or working on their projects...) Ni, if coupled with strong Te, just is a distancing mechanism for me; I can't see within the black box of Ni, and the Te can seem abrasive to my nuanced conceptual logic, as well as controlling to my flexy Ne. I'm guessing it's the more intuitive INTJs with a decent tertiary Fi that I find it easier to connect with -- our discussion shift out of impersonal T approaches into some other form of interaction, lessening the friction factor.

 

[Uytuun]

I don't feel any sort of personal warmth. There's always a gap.

Hmm, I actually do, that's why I mentioned Fi...but it remains very...unspoken. It actually is like fragile ropes across the gap (say they do something that indicates they're aware and considerate of something that's really important to me...the ropes will vibrate). The gap for me lies in the fact that they cannot meet me on an N level and often dismiss crazy N-ness and theorising, in fact it's not just the N, it's the Si (as opposed to Se). An SFP and I will be able to talk about Fi stuff, for example, whereas for most ISTJs I know, though they share Fi with us, they will resist freely (!) exploring it. Either way, I end up feeling like they don't fully grasp me and that they wouldn't be interested in me explaining myself (which is a major difference with INTPs). But I do feel personal warmth...or maybe it's more like I feel there's a connection, something of significance...I think it manifests most "visibly" in something like unspoken loyalty.

The INTP/INTJ thing is just weird to me. Yes, there can be quite the commonality there, like two siblings seeing the same sorts of things but always missing each other's hands when they go to say goodbye. (Well, if INTx's actually said goodbye, rather than just mumbling something indecipherable while playing their games or reading their books or working on their projects...) Ni, if coupled with strong Te, just is a distancing mechanism for me; I can't see within the black box of Ni, and the Te can seem abrasive to my nuanced conceptual logic, as well as controlling to my flexy Ne. I'm guessing it's the more intuitive INTJs with a decent tertiary Fi that I find it easier to connect with -- our discussion shift out of impersonal T approaches into some other form of interaction, lessening the friction factor.

Yeah, when it's just Ni+Te and Ti+Ne it's like water and oil...I find that it helps when you explain your "modus operandi" to INTPs (and by that I actually mean constantly leave detectable traces of it in your conversations) and I think that that requires an awareness of self that only comes with getting a better grasp on Fi. Also, extraverting Ni and Fi (in the personal realm, as warmth and craziness, but also in the intellectual realm, in terms of doubt and unfinished ideas - which they might bash) and thus making yourself vulnerable and lowering the Te shields simply facilitates interaction (with anyone, really). And just realising that the kind of conversation you'll have with INTPs (casual-cooperative...it's like playing with building blocks!) is different from what you have with NTJs (formal-destabilising, forceful...it's like throwing darts). It's much easier to find value in playing with blocks when you (NTJs) gain more appreciation and use of your own tertiary and inferior functions...as they are more about sharing and interacting and they're way more process-oriented. Paired with decent Ne-Fe in an INTP it gets much more rewarding to interact. There will still be misunderstandings, but at least you get the feeling you're interacting. With INTPs...it's like a solid landscape with sudden tears and schasms that at times feel infinitely deep. You're walking, you're walking, you're skipping, you're tumbling...and all of a sudden you keep falling (these days often because my nuanced Fi logic feels alienated by abrasive Fe...you put it very well).

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

My sample size is one on both sides, but I do get along equally with both. Great friendships in their own respects.

 

[Totenkindly]

Hmm, I actually do, that's why I mentioned Fi...but it remains very...unspoken. It actually is like fragile ropes across the gap (say they do something that indicates they're aware and considerate of something that's really important to me...the ropes will vibrate). ...But I do feel personal warmth...or maybe it's more like I feel there's a connection, something of significance...I think it manifests most "visibly" in something like unspoken loyalty.

Ah, that makes sense.

I actually was just in a project meeting and I had forgotten about the PM -- she's an ISTJ, but actually personable and engaging. (At least I think she's I, not E.) And when you said this (sorry, I shifted a few things around to put all your ideas together), I got that "aha" moment, yes, the personable-ness in her is when I get this vibe from her. She's actually listening to what people say.

She just also is very strongly the following way:

The gap for me lies in the fact that they cannot meet me on an N level and often dismiss crazy N-ness and theorising, in fact it's not just the N, it's the Si (as opposed to Se).

Yes, I see a big difference between Si and Se in terms of ideas, Si digs in and defends their singular perspective; and I have the same experiences with SFP that you have, except I'm connecting my Ne with their Se as our common thread -- we're bouncing ideas all over and brainstorming as our means of connect.

We've had the Si vs T battle on our analyst team before -- the ISTJ has already pulled the, "I object!" and our "objection overruled" and her final "But I strenuously object, so that's just the way it is!" strategy, which had to go upstream to the Grade 14 branch chiefs to get resolved. The PM was telling us analysts how to do our job, even though all of us disagreed with her... and her only reasoning was the, "But I object, so THERE!" maneuver.

But when she's not in that mode, I think she's the first female ISTJ I've actually felt a large degree of warmth from. Part of it's because she looks at everyone on the team as an individual person, not just some calculation or part of her structure to be shuffled around. She's well-rounded.

An SFP and I will be able to talk about Fi stuff, for example, whereas for most ISTJs I know, though they share Fi with us, they will resist freely (!) exploring it. Either way, I end up feeling like they don't fully grasp me and that they wouldn't be interested in me explaining myself (which is a major difference with INTPs).

Yes, I think INTx always wants to understand, it's just the language that blocks us sometimes.

And just realising that the kind of conversation you'll have with INTPs (casual-cooperative...it's like playing with building blocks!) is different from what you have with NTJs (formal-destabilising, forceful...it's like throwing darts). It's much easier to find value in playing with blocks when you gain more appreciation and use of your own tertiary and inferior functions...as they are more about sharing and interacting and they're way more process-oriented.

Great imagery; and yes, I'm far more interested in process than results, even if I have a goal. I guess in a way, I instinctively believe good process brings good results, even if the results aren't what I anticipated, and so those results are the "ideal" for me vs some preformulated goal.

(Case in point -- running for a position on another forum, and someone criticized the voting process, and I agreed with them, and they said, "That was rational but stupid; you're giving away your advantage," and I was like, "Well, if it's the best process, then that's what we should use." Yes, it would be nice to win; but I'm happier with the process making the most sense and the outcome is sort of superfluous.)

Paired with decent Ne-Fe in an INTP it gets much more rewarding to interact. There will still be misunderstandings, but at least you get the feeling you're interacting.

That's kind of where I have found a point of connection with an ENTJ friend o' mine. Not totally sure why that works, but if it does... good.