[INTP] INTP Girl IRL

[Red Herring]

http://typeandculture.org/Pages/C_papers93/9Barger_K.pdf

It was suggested to me that I post this here as reference material on the common experiences of female INTP. Ladies, do you identify with this?

Fuzzcrossed, you can consider it research material.

 

[A window to the soul]

^ I understand it, but I won't say I identify with Thorne & Gough's descriptors. In my opinion, the adjectives describe an unhealthy person. (Just because a person has a behavioral predisposition, doesn't mean they should behave that way.)

I relate to what was commonly experienced during childhood and adolescence. I came alive in college. I also relate to most of what was said about time alone and independence. I've always been independent (even when I was a little kid). I've always been mostly a loner too, but deep down inside it's not what I want.

I don't fully relate to the feeling function part of that study as far as recognizing feeling judgment. I know how I feel and I have no problem perceiving how others are feeling. I only have trouble in the area of expression and that's early on in a relationship. As a relationship progresses, I become more comfortable with verbal expression; although, I'm still not as verbally expressive as most people seem to be. I can articulate my emotions exceptionally well in writing.

 

[Tallulah]

Well, I've made it through 2 pages of that nonsense. It sounds so far like, "Wah! INTP women are mean and don't flirt with me or laugh at my jokes or make me a sammich!" disguised as an academic essay. I would say IRL that more people would describe me from the "least likely" list. I do keep people at a distance, though.

 

[Neutralpov]

Well, I've made it through 2 pages of that nonsense. It sounds so far like, "Wah! INTP women are mean and don't flirt with me or laugh at my jokes or make me a sammich!" disguised as an academic essay. I would say IRL that more people would describe me from the "least likely" list. I do keep people at a distance, though.

Explain that?

I also think prying is in need of definition. The genuine getting-to-know someone part I love and with the INTPs I know/ was close to loved it. That is a human general thing I am thinking?? I might call it prying by what you wrote though, not my definition though. I love to know all about another person I sense chemistry/connection or the possibility of connection with (and I think they have good character). Clarification please

 

[Kaizer]

Well, I've made it through 2 pages of that nonsense. It sounds so far like, "Wah! INTP women are mean and don't flirt with me or laugh at my jokes or make me a sammich!" disguised as an academic essay. I would say IRL that more people would describe me from the "least likely" list. I do keep people at a distance, though.

Explain that?

I also think prying is in need of definition. The genuine getting-to-know someone part I love and with the INTPs I know/ was close to loved it. That is a human general thing I am thinking?? I might call it prying by what you wrote though, not my definition though. I love to know all about another person I sense chemistry/connection or the possibility of connection with (and I think they have good character). Clarification please

If I may give input edgewise.
values first and then everything else which in this case imo works better in one case and lesser so in the other combination.
The INTPs you say loved it are likely to have had two things present in that situ... the trust and the commonality, and the lack of the intrusive kind of 'getting-to-know' as they defined intrusiveness/prying. I know that this seems a lil circular, but to see a shade of grey look at extremes and then go to the specific incident so that you can draw the general principle and the specific application of it. I'll clarify this with ENFJ males v/s females where more males go the ESFJ way, but generally, more so than not, the females don't. The particular ESFJ way of interaction I'm referring to, is highly intrusive and pries with lil awareness from a more wholesome perspective or the IN perspective, except for a traditional one or one that springs from the the-way-things-are-done outlook. To go to the extreme of this particular manner of interaction/this outlook, consider values based in crass and almost unabashed selfishness, self-centered-ness and a user-like predisposition/drive. It is there that this prying is likely to be visible in its extreme and bare form.
on the one hand traditional idiom says that 'familiarity breeds contempt'; whereas the 'other' outlook might see familiarity as enriching and movement/organic growth towards wholesomeness.
fwiw

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I read some of the article. Of course the responses are going to be such... If it is true that 60-65% of American women lean towards Fe and they were selected the negativity is envitable, but what they fail to realize is that the only reason why it's negative is because their Fe is going on what they believe society as a whole may be and if it changed towards a more Ti nature, then the dom/aux Fe may begin to lean that way too thus changing the results. Or am I completely missing the point of the article?

 

[Red Herring]

The way I read it the point of the article was that female INTPs in different cultures share a lot of common experiences. The first few pages were the weakest part and supposed to introduce the problems some of them face by showing the negative perception of their frequent deviation from gender roles. The idea was to show that in cultures that expect women to be ESFJ (the part where they are asked about the expectancies in their respective cultures), being the opposite of that can cause alienation, sort of a no-brainer.

I was interested in hearing to which point you identified with the quotes from the women about their childhood experiences, life in college, relationship to family, friends, colleagues and men, etc.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Ah, I'm not a women so my ideas don't really count, but I suppose it seems rather obvious. Unless you were able to shut down Fe completely as a defense in which you might not relate, but with that I ask if the pressure actually disappears if you do shut down all connections to the outer world?

 

[A window to the soul]

I would say IRL that more people would describe me from the "least likely" list. I do keep people at a distance, though.

^ Yeah, me too. Funny what you said about being pried open. I feel like I'm being pried open when I'm given too much, too soon. Often followed by "how do you feel about me?" Sometimes followed by tears. By the time I respond, it's not enough to stop the projection of anger/fears upon me. This happens often enough that I'm looking for a preventative measure; even though I would prefer a more natural progression. Life is a journey, not a rush to the finish!

 

[Tallulah]

Okay, just read the rest of it. The experiences were mostly relate-able, but it just kind of comfirms to me that no one has the same experience.

I can relate to not liking gender expectations and deferring to men (even as a kid, I couldn't understand why so many women thought that things were better coming from a man), d and I always treated people from either gender equally, no matter their age. I respected my elders and teachers, and was kind of the teacher's pet type. I loooooooved learning, and it fed my self-esteem to be perceptive and have the right answers. About 8th grade, I realized I could make the other kids laugh with my comments, so I became sort of a respectful class clown type, so the teachers would understand I wasn't undermining their authority, but I could entertain myself and also exercise my wit. I hated school spirit, team sports, and most stuff teens were supposed to like. I wasn't popular, but no one actively disliked me. I was a beta chick, for sure. The only guys that liked me probably turned out to be gay. I think I intimidated the straight ones, and the gay ones liked that I had a strong personality (much stronger back then because I was trying on personas for size).

My parents were mostly supportive of letting me be myself and pursue whatever interests I had. I do remember that my mother often called me critical and opinionated, though. I could never understand why opinionated was a bad thing. I think she felt like I swayed my sister's opinions--if I didn't like something or pronounced it stupid, so would she. I always just thought, hey, it's my opinion. Feel free to have your own. I'm not making you think a certain way.

Dating has always been awkward for me, because I'm really not a typical girl. I have to find guys who don't need the overtly girly element, because that stuff makes me feel stupid, like I'm playing a role. I definitely need my own space, too. I never really wanted kids, never had a maternal instinct at all. But as I get older, I reaaaally think it wouldn't be a good idea to have kids. Most of my enjoyment in life comes from pursuing my own interests and improving my talents and skills. If I had to put all of that on hold and be totally focused on someone else, never having a moment to myself, never getting to relax and sleep late, and stuff, I think I'd be a seething ball of resentment.

Heather, I'll come back and answer your question.

 

[Salomé]

I agree with Tallulah. Pretty lame study and I'm not sure I understand the point of it. To tell us we're the most hated type in existence? Well ok then.
Fortunately, we're also the type least likely to care.

Our interpretation is that characteristic behaviors of INTPs when displayed by
women in the U.S. are interpreted by others in negative ways because of cultural
assumptions about how women should be and behave. Whether the descriptors for
women in this study were significantly influenced by the cultural biases of the
observers, or the behavior and adjustment of these women was influenced by their life
experience with cultural/family values is impossible to judge from the evidence.

Not impossible at all if you know how to construct a study properly. Plenty of work has been done in this field which conclusively demonstrates that behaviour which is rewarded or condoned in men is punished in women.

When women display the necessary confidence in their skills and comfort with power, they run the risk of being regarded as 'competent but cold': the bitch, the ice queen, the iron maiden, the ballbuster, the battle axe, the dragon lady . . . The sheer number of synonyms is telling. Put bluntly, we don't like the look of self-promotion and power on a woman. In experimental studies, women who behave in an agentic fashion experience backlash: they are rated as less socially skilled, and thus less hireable for jobs that require people skills as well as competence than are men who behave in an identical fashion. And yet if women don't show confidence, ambition and competitiveness then evaluators may use gender stereotypes to fill in the gaps, and assume that these are important qualities she lacks. Thus the alternative to being competent but cold is to be regarded as 'nice but incompetent'. This catch-22 positions women who seek leadership roles on a 'tight-rope of impression management'. In an empirical investigation of this damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation for women leaders, Victoria Brescoll and Eric Uhlmann found that while expressing anger often enhances men's status and competency in the eyes of others, it can be very costly to women in terms of how they are perceived.

Rutgers University psychologist Laurie Rudman and her colleagues have recently discovered that what people find particularly objectionable in professional women are status enhancing behaviours like being aggressive, dominating and intimidating. For instance, in one study students read a letter of recommendation for an academic applying for promotion to English professor. The fictional candidate was superb, an internationally renowned and highly intelligent author and literary critic. To this information it was added either that the applicant's style of literary criticism was tactful or ruthless. And, as you have already guessed, in one version of the letter the applicant was female, in the other male. The tactful version of both candidates were equally well liked and rated equally hireable. However, the ruthless version of the male candidate was considered significantly more likeable than his female counterpart. The pitiless "Emily" was less hireable because she was disliked, and she was disliked because she was seen as more intimidating, dominant and ruthless than the identical Edward. - from Delusions of Gender

I'll wager most INTP women would rather be considered competent than nice, and apparently, women can't be both.

 

[A window to the soul]

I relate to these quotes from the study:

I'm too tired to put this in my own words. Most of these didn't appear to be from the US.

“I was very independent.” “I’ve spent my life finding out how different I am.”
“My extraverted sister took all the space—she didn’t invade my space, she took it.”

“I sometimes made remarks which I thought were clever or humorous and other people experienced as sarcastic and hurtful. I was surprised to find I had this reputation.”

“Most of the time, I felt like an outside observer.”

“I was always searching for the truth, never being on time, embarrassing my family by sticking out, sticking my mind into things...” “I had a few good friends—we went for long walks, pretending.”

“I never listened to lectures. I thought I should read and think by myself. During a class, I would be reading a textbook which had not been covered, or I would be thinking about something else.” “I had a pretty good academic record. I did not stand out in the class— I was pretty quiet, so the teachers were not upset about my attitude.” “I envied those who were popular... I made an effort to become popular, but I did not succeed at all [laughing].”

“I spent a lot of time reorganizing classes at university. I would sit and analyze and watch and reorganize classes.”

“I took a perverse amount of pleasure out of doing something successfully that people said couldn’t be done.”

“In terms of my job, I’ve always been independent. People don’t have power over me.” “I am a very thorough perfectionist at work. I have a very quiet style, but have been in and continue to take leadership roles.”

“I identified with my dad. I felt closer to him.”

“Women do small talk, which is not easy for me.” “I saw my mother’s and father’s relationship and arguments from my dad’s perspective.”

“I’ve always been calm, in control. I have had these lash-out experiences of anger.”

The study makes INTP women sound ridiculously masculine and unfriendly. I'm neither.

 

[Neutralpov]

This is good to see. I had a best friend INTP/INFP (exactly split) and I heard her say she was misunderstood several times. I took and do take great pains to understand people I let into my closest relation and it bothered me somewhat that the misunderstanding was almost a victim card. I think I temper it now and am seeing it must be hard to be the minority (and I saw her dating experiences up close and the problems) but what about taking the time to understand the other? At some point the being misunderstood can't be an excuse? Maybe I saw it oddly.

And also I know that my close friends see that I push for good and I do rush sometimes to get to know people. But that I learned in the past few years doesn't work. It is still a bit of a knee-jerk response since I am a person of initiative and my skills are that connection making/bonding and great INTPs may not step out to seize the great benefits of solid relations( be it life-long friend or significant O).

Example: Sounds silly but the last guy I dated (architect) I saw he was socially uncomfortable and not as skilled (he danced with some girls and they even joked after that he was too serious and not fun) and I smiled and walked on over. That is where I excel and if that is the biggest weakness it is a great compliment to his character and it did work (for that time we dated this year).

Prying also might be very different in the level of closeness of I could see it annoying anyone if you don't want it or think they are a snoop.

 

[Salomé]

Of the 12 women, 10 reported feeling “different” within their families, feeling
unsupported, feeling like an outsider. All recalled numerous ways in which they did
not “fit.” Half reported strong feelings of rejection and lack of support from families.

Never felt rejected by my immediate family... but I can't say I ever felt supported by them either (never been sure what "support" actually means...) Mostly they fail to understand me, which is unsurprising. But I fit because I'm me and I was never made to feel there was anything wrong with me. Quite the opposite.

Of the 12 women, 9 reported being smart or especially good in school; none reported
academic difficulties. Three different behavior patterns were reported, with several
indicating more than one of these: 1) being a leader; 2) being a good girl; 3) being
aggressive/rebellious—"contrary.” The “aggressiveness/rebellion” generally took the
form of rejecting statements/rules which were “not logical” and reading books in class
which were not assigned.

Academic work was effortless for me. I wasn't a leader, but I wasn't a follower either. A good girl - yes. Still am. Aggressive/rebellious? I don't think anyone would have described me in that way as a child. Apart from when I got into fights...
I was surreptitiously rebellious. Played truant, etc if I thought the class would be boring. I got away with a lot of shit because I was "gifted".

 

[Tallulah]

Heather,

I have had some bad experiences with people who pry in the past, because some of them didn't have great motivations. They'd use their people skills to get me to open up, then blab my business to others or figure out some way to use it against me. These were mostly people who were after the same roles I was in the theatre dept in college. So I learned pretty quickly that not everyone can be trusted, and now, if you want to get to know me, you have to demonstrate that you're genuinely interested, and that you may be sticking around. You have to be trustworthy, because I'm not your entertainment, and I'm not telling you my private stuff if I'm not sure of your motivations. I'm a very slow opener-upper anyway.

I have an ENFJ friend that I met in grad school that asked me a TON of questions about myself when we had just met, and it made me feel really weird and put on the spot. I didn't understand what her motivation was. But then I mentioned that she asked a lot of questions, and we had a good laugh about it, and she definitely demonstrated that she was genuinely interested in me as a friend. So I relaxed about the prying.

In general, and this frustrates some of my friends, I don't like being asked a bunch of direct questions about myself. I like to share when the moment arises organically. I'm not hiding anything, necessarily; I just feel weird talking about myself.

Even with good friends that I trust, it feels weird when they demand self-disclosure from me. I hate the phrases, "Tell me something about yourself!" and "What's something I don't know about you?" Those will actually cause panic in me. I feel like they're demanding something that I'm not sure I can give. I don't know what they expect. What's good enough? Does it need to be juicy? I've never been one of those girls that uses personal sharing to bond. I don't get slumber party bonding. I'm not a "girl" in that way. I especially don't like it when girls want to hear something embarrassing or secretive or whatever, because that always feels like they're trying to take you down a peg--like they're uncomfortable with your level of confidence. I hate that.

 

[A window to the soul]

This is good to see. I had a best friend INTP/INFP (exactly split) and I heard her say she was misunderstood several times.

This is where I'm at.

I took and do take great pains to understand people I let into my closest relation and it bothered me somewhat that the misunderstanding was almost a victim card. I think I temper it now and am seeing it must be hard to be the minority (and I saw her dating experiences up close and the problems) but what about taking the time to understand the other? At some point the being misunderstood can't be an excuse? Maybe I saw it oddly.

No I don't think you saw it oddly. I think you're seeing to the heart of the matter. I have done a lot of thinking about this subject lately. Fixing the breakdown in communication can't be one-sided in a relationship; it takes two. When one is willing and the other is acting like a fool, all bets are off. I don't know the details, so it's hard to speculate as to how she could be so misunderstood and which side of this she falls.

I face challenges, I fail, I figure it out eventually because I have good intentions. My intentions are what's most commonly misunderstood. At that point, I have two options: I can shutdown & play the victim, or I can swallow my pride and try to understand. When you care, you take the time, you make the effort.

And also I know that my close friends see that I push for good and I do rush sometimes to get to know people. But that I learned in the past few years doesn't work. It is still a bit of a knee-jerk response since I am a person of initiative and my skills are that connection making/bonding and great INTPs may not step out to seize the great benefits of solid relations( be it life-long friend or significant O).

You sound like a caring friend. Sometimes it seems like being a friend is like a fine art that takes years to master. I think you've illustrated the principles very well in your post: learn to understand how we make people feel, meet them them in the middle somewhere.

Example: Sounds silly but the last guy I dated (architect) I saw he was socially uncomfortable and not as skilled (he danced with some girls and they even joked after that he was too serious and not fun) and I smiled and walked on over. That is where I excel and if that is the biggest weakness it is a great compliment to his character and it did work (for that time we dated this year).

Prying also might be very different in the level of closeness of I could see it annoying anyone if you don't want it or think they are a snoop.

I think if someone is uncomfortable opening up and sharing, it doesn't always mean there's something wrong with you; it more likely means there's something wrong with them. That's the reality. I'll eventually figure this out.

 

[Salomé]

In general, and this frustrates some of my friends, I don't like being asked a bunch of direct questions about myself. I like to share when the moment arises organically. I'm not hiding anything, necessarily; I just feel weird talking about myself.

Even with good friends that I trust, it feels weird when they demand self-disclosure from me. I hate the phrases, "Tell me something about yourself!" and "What's something I don't know about you?" Those will actually cause panic in me. I feel like they're demanding something that I'm not sure I can give. I don't know what they expect. What's good enough? Does it need to be juicy? I've never been one of those girls that uses personal sharing to bond. I don't get slumber party bonding. I'm not a "girl" in that way. I especially don't like it when girls want to hear something embarrassing or secretive or whatever, because that always feels like they're trying to take you down a peg--like they're uncomfortable with your level of confidence. I hate that.

And they call us suspicious of people's motives...
I'm the same way. I used to be absurdly trusting and would tell/give anyone anything because I didn't have a strong sense of property and boundaries and I didn't intuit how fucked up and evil some people are. Young INTPs are the Dodos of social interaction. After a few hard knocks, the pendulum swings in the opposite direction.

 

[Neutralpov]

This is good stuff here. I think Tallulah you have answered this now that I see it. I have read something similar in a thread before from you. ( I read threads a ton more than I post). I had to soak in the responses. Really I can't measure online answers to the questions. In real life I guess I run into INTPs that are warm and love the deep personal, and I run into the ones that are rebuffed by my desire for intimacy in close relations and the touchy-feely. And I only speak of people I have nudged to take the real test. No guessing.

Perfect girl I agree with this: "Fixing the breakdown in communication can't be one-sided in a relationship; it takes two." That was the ultimate reality I accepted and moved on. Sad face but reality is a good thing and I was freed up to make other good friendships. Also I like reading your responses! Thanks.

And Tallulah I remember this in the bonding conversation about sharing when the moment arises organically (Tallulah, 2010). It was something that did become a barrier to close friendship and this is where internet conversations are limitations. I need someone who opens up I concluded for the closest ring of trust in my life. Sad for me but I cannot say in the future for close relations or best friends if I would do an INTP again as they vary and making an absolution doesn't hold without knowing a person! So that was a null statement I guess?

The not opening up because you learned that people can’t all be trusted is human. I hear it all the time and it is the adult process when you first have your trust betrayed or awake to the dangers of the world. I hear this frequently in counseling class/cases as a student. I think what we are discussing is self-containedness or reserve or time to warm up to someone. And I will say I think walls cause loniliness. So as long as the process is healthy I understand the slow investigative stage but not distance from the good that should be let in at a cost. Someone wanting an embarrassing story is bridge building with your humanity and the group, not taking you down a peg per say. They can't see a common ground and your human foibles are a sure bridge to connection.

I will say though I've felt starved out and I learned equal disclosure because of becoming an adult ( I tended to share to make the other comfortable and take the first step). This is one case though. And I noticed the INTPs I knew responded to the negative consequences of feeling left out with effort (but pushing or pulling isn't always good and can be tiresome).
But maybe that is something you have heard before as a request from an other to share? What do you do? Or do you not become close with people who tend to do this? It may be me since I am an NF and desire emotional connection not just the mental connection.
In the end I am still open to thought and exploration but I can’t make sweeping statements I guess.

Also side note:
Strengths of Fe:
The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure....We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them. (Beherens, 2004).

 

[Tallulah]

Interesting thoughts, Heather--I'm sure I've definitely frustrated some feeler friends by not being forthcoming with details. But here's the thing: These people who give me a hard time because I haven't volunteered stuff like being rejected by the popular guy in high school or living two months in Georgia always forget that they are the ones that I share my life with now, by sharing the everyday things, expressing frustration sometimes, doing things for them. It's really frustrating for me to know that I AM sharing with them, but they don't recognized it as sharing. They want tidbits and details. And I feel weird just volunteering tidbits and details. Those aren't the things that make me who I am. I"m no the same person I was even five years ago, so it just kind of feels moot.

Another thing is the reciprocated sharing-as-bonding thing. I tend to attract friends who want to tell me their life story, want to vent, want me to talk them down, need advice, whatever. I have no problem with this (as long as you aren't an emotional leech). BUT I don't care for it when someone does all this and then gets all upset later because I don't do the same thing to them. First, I didn't know there was a contract, and second, I deal with a lot of my stuff internally. I will come to you when I need to, but I am pretty self-contained, and it's not an insult to you. I mean, I see it as kinda like this: I accepted you on your terms. I didn't tell you to calm down and think about this rationally. I knew you needed to get it all out, and I want you to do it in the way that's most helpful to you. So, I would like the same consideration. We react differently. You like that about me when I'm the listener. Don't assume there's a constant rumbling of emotion deep inside me that I'm keeping from you. I'm not you. I think that can be an issue with Fe doms--the tendency to think that everyone is like them, but they're just holding back or being difficult.

 

[Neutralpov]

I hear you. Is this classic Pygmalion project with NF/NT? I know STs I have been close with can be self-contained as well.

The fact that you are sharing must have gone under the radar or it was just so out of proportion to the other person. I think you just said something good for me to hear so I can appreciate instead of attack (irl mentally criticize in this case next time). Isn’t loving someone when you can get this acceptance and support their preferences in the negotiating process?

I don't know I felt awful/”wow I feel really stupid” when sharing and then getting "but I am private" ( no thanks, 2008). That felt like a slap in the face and I wouldn't have shared if I knew up front it would be that way. I think it is my (or the initiating sharer's responsibility) but in terms of expecting reciprocity yeah it doesn't feel good to have an unequal connection. Its called putting yourself out there for a reason. In fact it seems to feel like I am vulnerable and the other isn't or I have no control (even though I think control is an illusion). So this can’t be a surprise too much? I would say the majority would think reciprocity will follow by the balance desire inherent in us. Some may not, or maybe gender skews this? But yes I know better after that experience several years ago and I just guard my instinct to share seek intimacy with trustworthy ppl.

I would move my life to someone who did reciprocate or just let the friendship exist on the level you/they want. I think it is something I would wish for but if it is who you are then that will be exhausting and frustrating so I would just have to let the friendship be more surface or activity based. But that is life right!? ha I have a closest ISTP girl friend currently and I do lots with her but I know that the private stuff and vulnerable stuff won't be told to me. That being said I won't be happy without someone I can share inner me with. The potential irks me! It’s like you know this friend, significant other has everything right except this sharing thing? It is like a 86%-92% perfect? The potential is like arggghhh if you add this element that they could do they hooorraaay! So in the future it will come to how important this element is. Only in real life decisions where something is on the line do you get forced to weigh what really matters.

This isn't a fixable thing either I think it is a dance or balancing act but seeing the potential I just see a wish? Reality is my friend and maybe want and need are two different things I have blurred in this scenario. Real life I can't see yet on this issue so I am back where I started AGAIN. But it is the exploration and journey that is the fun right. So I can lay this one to rest and get on with some witty banter pleeassseee.

- H {insert holiday emoticon here}