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[Fe] Fe use in INTPs?

EcK

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Not necessarily. As a matter of Fact, Fe's primary function is manipulation.

As a matter of Fact, a tool user's primary function is manipulation.

political statements 101 kiddo.
 

Andy

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I identify with the basic gist of both of your examples (and I do have an idea. I think I'm closer to the right type now. That or INTP. It wasn't Fi at all). One funny thing is how "respecting" the Fe side in myself shows up is when I'm just acutely aware of consequences.. Say, for example, somewhere like here. I enjoy bullshitting around here, so I don't really want to sabotage myself. Sometimes I speak my mind, and sometimes it may take me an hour just to phrase something. It's as if I have that monkey from Family Guy on my back, telling me not to go certain places. I used to give less of a shit.

If you have to deal with the Evil Monkey In The Closet I feel sorry for you.

ITPs can indeed be respecting. Fe is about what you feel needs to be done on a social level, rather than being directly emotions caused by social interaction. The primary Ti of ITPs creates a sense of value for certain things and by extention they are likely to respect other people who show/embody those things. The strong shadow Fi can be associated with a similar effect, even if they don't persue such things so vigourously themselves.

I suspect that Bruce Lee was an ISTP. He could be quite respectful of other martial artists, even as he strove to be better than them. That's the sort of difference between a Ti orientated value and an Fe style act.

Of course, like I said, there are some ITPs who go the other way and dislike any competition. As with all inferiors, they often struggle to find a middle ground.

you talk about social position and competitiveness in same thing, this doesent match at all. are you trying to say that intps tend to compete for their social position?

do you have some intp friend that tends to compete with you all the time? i got an intj friend who i tend to compete with about everything and it has nothing to do with Fe, its more like battle of Te vs Ti. it might have characteristics of alpha males battling, but its not really about social position at all, its just a fun activity for my Ti, i couldnt care less about social position since we are all friends. its just fun to own Te you see.

Yes. Alpha male battling - that's social jockying. There is more to the idea of social position than just a formal statement of upper, middle, working class or whatever. Even convicted criminal in jail have social levels. That almost pack level of social class sorting is the level poor Fe will sometimes work at.

i do tend to compete rarely with my entp friend too, but its more like drunken wrestling(or other physical activity) and i dont care if i win or lose, its all about fun and i dont see it effecting to my social position at all. i dont have this urge to compete with F types.

Fe + competition shouldnt be used in same sentence imo. Fe is about creating harmony and competition is braking harmony and it cant really be used to balance it either, creating harmony comes from good things, competition is the opposite if used as form of manipulating anything.

Fe isn't about harmony. FJs can be quite inharmonious when they see something they feel needs to be changed. I had an ESFJ great-great arnt who would often batter people into submission through shear force of personality, especially if she felt like they deserved it. That doesn't stop her from being a primary Fe though. She saw a social need and would respond to it, and she wouldn't stop responding till the poor bastard on the recieving gave up. She was one of the suffragettes, chaining herself to iron gates and protesting in the streets. In short, she raised one hell of a noise when a job needed doing. It's that need that defines Fe doms, not a desire for harmony.

5 is all about Ne and seeing the possible opportunities that Ne gives(and because of what if there will be a better opportunity). because seeing the possible opportunities, its not the preferred way to make a commitment since that might end up being the wrong decision when/if new opportunities arise. because of these possible opportunities, its hard for Ti to make a decision about commitment and P types tend not to make a decision of any kind if they are not sure about it.

So you are saying that an INTPs highest functions are the ones that cause them to become indecisive and uncertain? That turns the theory inside out. Those are the areas they are most sure of themselves. They may make mistake, as intelligence is outside function theory... but being paralysed into confused inaction? Unlikely. I think the weak Si (certainty of knowledge) and Fe (action towards social needs) are far more likely.

your variations about how Fe manifests in intp seems like classic case of intj not understanding whats going on. my intj friend makes this kind of mistakes all the time, its about Te seeing only the facts, but Ni composing a twisted picture about the whole. it happens because Te doesent look behind the scene, and Ni forms opinion about Te facts and what weak Se tells about what seems to be. i bet empathetic type of thinking of Fi has something to do with this, because it can lead the person to false image, due to too much unconscious assuming.

Reading this, and some of the other things you have written, lead me to believe you are using a very different set of ideas of what the functions are. I don't agree with what you think Fe, Te, Ne or Se (probably not the other four either). With no common ground for what function theory even does, I doubt this will go any where useful, so I'm inclined to call it a day.
 

INTP

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Yes. Alpha male battling - that's social jockying. There is more to the idea of social position than just a formal statement of upper, middle, working class or whatever. Even convicted criminal in jail have social levels. That almost pack level of social class sorting is the level poor Fe will sometimes work at.

but that alpha male battling has nothing to do with social status for me, its just pure entertainment -> its nothing as you described, and since its just pure fun, its not about some social position and Fe that you are talking about.
what i meant with that last part about "classical intj not understanding the situation", was exactly this. Te sees battle, Fi makes an assumption that this person wants to challenge me, Se sees what is happening and Ni puts these parts together in a twisted way, simply because none of those functions are aimed to look at why this person is doing this, and getting to the conclusion using objective deduction and trying to see behind the actions.

Te sees that the person is challenging me and decides that i must do a counter attack or i will lose.
Fi generates unconscious subjective simulation about the reasons why the other persons is acting like this and challenging me. because of the subjective nature of this simulation, the intj is using his own reasons on why this person is using this type of approach, not the intps reasoning. and because of the unconscious nature of this simulation, the intj is not able to see why this would be true or false, he just feels that he is attacking because this.
Se just sees whats going on, again without looking behind the show and trying to understand why.
Ni just puts all of these together, generating view of the big picture and the intj is convinced that this is how it goes because he trusts this function so much and doesent question it.

but what ever, i bet you are just as stubborn as my friend and you wont understand this and challenge your Ni, even tho it should be crystal clear to anyone who is able to read.


So you are saying that an INTPs highest functions are the ones that cause them to become indecisive and uncertain? That turns the theory inside out. Those are the areas they are most sure of themselves. They may make mistake, as intelligence is outside function theory... but being paralysed into confused inaction? Unlikely. I think the weak Si (certainty of knowledge) and Fe (action towards social needs) are far more likely.



Reading this, and some of the other things you have written, lead me to believe you are using a very different set of ideas of what the functions are. I don't agree with what you think Fe, Te, Ne or Se (probably not the other four either). With no common ground for what function theory even does, I doubt this will go any where useful, so I'm inclined to call it a day.

what theory is it turning upside down? the one that says that types are lead mainly by their first and second function? do you think that lower functions are the ones that cause uncertainty in the type? if so its just that when using the lower functions the type is uncertain if the function is giving him the right answer, again classical intj thinking to not to be able to tell these totally different two things apart.

instead of just saying that you disagree with me, try to explain whats wrong with my idea of the functions and why yours is the right one or this will last forever.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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Your saying Inferior Fe makes way for selfishness? How is inferior Fe related to selfishness?

If you conform to the whole in attempt to take over and control the whole for your own purposes. Ti judges that the use of Fe only works when wanting to get something specific from a group and if this is the only motive behind your action it can be seen as selfish. Technically it's a blind spot in Introverted Thinking and Extraverted Intuition. If Fe were more of a power player like in an ENTP the two front-runners would be able to see many possiblities for the Fe. So it's Fe's fault for being inferior and Ne-Ti's fault for not being able to see a wider range of purposes for it. Circular, but it does end when you realize that Fe has several more purposes than just to gain something for yourself.
 

Craft

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As a matter of Fact, a tool user's primary function is manipulation.

political statements 101 kiddo.

I don't get it. Could you explain, mister?

--
Btw, Undeveloped Judging Function simply means Bad Judging. Nothing else. Further ideas are only bullshit tendencies.

Also, Inferior Fe =/= Undeveloped Fe.
 

Craft

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If you conform to the whole in attempt to take over and control the whole for your own purposes. Ti judges that the use of Fe only works when wanting to get something specific from a group and if this is the only motive behind your action it can be seen as selfish. Technically it's a blind spot in Introverted Thinking and Extraverted Intuition. If Fe were more of a power player like in an ENTP the two front-runners would be able to see many possiblities for the Fe. So it's Fe's fault for being inferior and Ne-Ti's fault for not being able to see a wider range of purposes for it. Circular, but it does end when you realize that Fe has several more purposes than just to gain something for yourself.

Well....the "self" bit here is rather vague, at least to my eyes. First of all, can we not define having a value of "helping others" as a self-oriented act? It acts within one's personal value, not some objective feat. Fe may have direct connection to collective value but INTP's may not necessarily go according to collective value.
 
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ReflecTcelfeR

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Well....the "self" bit here is rather vague, at least to my eyes. First of all, can we not define having a value of "helping others" as a self-oriented act? It acts within one's personal value, not some objective feat. Fe may have direct connection to collective value but INTP's may not necessarily go according to collective value.

So you are helping others as end of itself and not the means? If so this is what Fe, or a healthy user and perhaps a dom- Fe user would be best at, on that I can agree, but in the scope of an INTP's function to see Fe as an end is not likely because of your last statement. Ti needs that logical reason to help others, that's the barrier that creates the motive behind Fe.
 

Andy

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what theory is it turning upside down? the one that says that types are lead mainly by their first and second function? do you think that lower functions are the ones that cause uncertainty in the type? if so its just that when using the lower functions the type is uncertain if the function is giving him the right answer, again classical intj thinking to not to be able to tell these totally different two things apart.

instead of just saying that you disagree with me, try to explain whats wrong with my idea of the functions and why yours is the right one or this will last forever.

And there in lines the point. Functions don't generate answer at all. To do that they would need to be skill sets or abilities and there not. You can try to asses them that way if you feel like it, but the more time you spend looking at it, the less sense it makes. I think that's why many people get thrustrated with the whole theory and throw it out.

Functions are motivations (Or perspectives as Eric B puts it). They are representative of the drives that people have to act or think in a particular way. The first two are those drives that are most intrinsic and familar to use - thus my objection. Why would the most familiar motivations cause confusion over what we want to get out of something? Surely those motivations we explore the least readily will be the most foriegn and puzzling.

If you want to look at them as perspectives, as is Eric point of view (Please forgive the pun, Eric, if you read this!) then why do we get confused when looking at the world in our usual light? Confusion comes when we are forced to look at it in a new, unfamiliar way.

This is also why I also oppose your views about certain functions not looking behind the scences. Again, I'd say that no function does that, because they are just what helps us to determine what we want. Seeing the tenebrous and obfuscal is a function of intelligence, which is not governed by the theory. At best, it indicates where one focus most of their efforts and in one genreral areas they will find such obscurities.
 

EcK

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I don't get it. Could you explain, mister?

--
Btw, Undeveloped Judging Function simply means Bad Judging. Nothing else. Further ideas are only bullshit tendencies.

Also, Inferior Fe =/= Undeveloped Fe.

I mean that manipulation is mostly used as a somewhat or clearly negative term when people face other people better at what they do than they are themselves.
I don't mean you, i don't know you, i'm describing the use of the term and how it mostly shows the vision of the world the speaker conveys rather than describe any structurally different type of human interactions.


Btw, Undeveloped Judging Function simply means Bad Judging. Nothing else. Further ideas are only bullshit tendencies.

Also, Inferior Fe =/= Undeveloped Fe.
On a side note, that statement doesn't make much sense. If it's bad it's actually more of a value judgement than 'underdevelopped'. And under developped would be say, some quantitative (non binary like good\bad)way of rating something. But then it all depends on what you're comparing it to (since under implies the use of another norm) (so does developped to a lesser extent)
I do get the whole internal vs external frame of reference etc., it's just that a non negligable quantity of individuals don't seem to understand what comes out of their mouth so I educate them and such. When i can be bothered.
I generall dont, since saying that sort of things hints at poorly internalised knowledge (poor reprocessing), and therefore a lower chance of me having a meaningful impact and my words \ time being work efficient.

And a good day to you sir
 

entropie

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I've always found introverted functions to be the most manipulative. Fe holds societal values and norms which makes it easier for you to get your things moving and it is some form of manipulation in the most narrow sense, but the subjective truth primary Ni, Si, Ti or Fi wielders sometimes hold in their opinion, I sometimes find more threatening. Especially when they are irrational or not clearly understandable for a extrovert thinking being.

I dunno, I have the feeling that it is easier to be manipulated as a Fe - user than vice versa
 

wildcat

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How do Fe usage in INTPs manifest?

Do INTPs use Fe on a regular basis?

I'm mostly thinking about the belonging to a group aspect, and speak(validly or not) for the whole group.

The complementary figure does not manifest in the original context.
It is therefore it is the complementary figure.
A dichotomy (= a group) cannot contradict itself.
 

INTP

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And there in lines the point. Functions don't generate answer at all. To do that they would need to be skill sets or abilities and there not. You can try to asses them that way if you feel like it, but the more time you spend looking at it, the less sense it makes. I think that's why many people get thrustrated with the whole theory and throw it out.

Functions are motivations (Or perspectives as Eric B puts it). They are representative of the drives that people have to act or think in a particular way. The first two are those drives that are most intrinsic and familar to use - thus my objection. Why would the most familiar motivations cause confusion over what we want to get out of something? Surely those motivations we explore the least readily will be the most foriegn and puzzling.

If you want to look at them as perspectives, as is Eric point of view (Please forgive the pun, Eric, if you read this!) then why do we get confused when looking at the world in our usual light? Confusion comes when we are forced to look at it in a new, unfamiliar way.


i agree that functions are perspectives. when did i say that they arent? you see, its just that different type of perspectives lead to different type of answers.

there are flaws in mbti simply because functions have been simplified too much from the real psychological functions that people use. there are more brain regions that process information in different ways than there are functions in mbti and mbti functions are just sets of these actual functions working together in a way that they usually work. so there arent really so strict ways how the functions work, because they are compilations of many actual functions. some things what you said is in contrary of other stronger functions or just clear misunderstanding caused by putting too much weight on facts and putting the facts together without thinking why these facts should be the ones that go hand in hand.

jung did this psychological type thing way better than myers and briggs. mbti is pretty much the simplified version from jungs psychological types, because jungs stuff is too hard to understand for people with no real interest trying to figure it out.


This is also why I also oppose your views about certain functions not looking behind the scences. Again, I'd say that no function does that, because they are just what helps us to determine what we want. Seeing the tenebrous and obfuscal is a function of intelligence, which is not governed by the theory. At best, it indicates where one focus most of their efforts and in one genreral areas they will find such obscurities.

"When this is extraverted (Ne), the act of intuitive perception grapples with the world itself in order to understand it and its chief goal is to derive meaning."

because the goal is to derive meaning, it needs to look behind the scenes to understand where this meaning is coming from. you cant understand meaning for anything if you just view it on the surface, you can only see how something works, not why it works this particular way.

if functions are perspectives, how can perspective be something that only helps you to figure out what you need? :huh:

again you do the classical intj. you just tell some of the "facts" that led you to your assumptions, but you leave out the whole reasoning part. makes me wonder if you leave the reasoning part out of your thinking too..
 

Craft

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I mean that manipulation is mostly used as a somewhat or clearly negative term when people face other people better at what they do than they are themselves.
I don't mean you, i don't know you, i'm describing the use of the term and how it mostly shows the vision of the world the speaker conveys rather than describe any structurally different type of human interactions.

Irrelevant. Their definition is wrong.



On a side note, that statement doesn't make much sense. If it's bad it's actually more of a value judgement than 'underdevelopped'. And under developped would be say, some quantitative (non binary like good\bad)way of rating something. But then it all depends on what you're comparing it to (since under implies the use of another norm) (so does developped to a lesser extent)

When I say bad, I mean incapable. It is completely objective. A low-quality tool. For example, let's say my goal is to make someone smile. With Bad Fe, I will "fart everywhere" totally ignoring ethics. With Good Fe, I'll do something more "sensitive" like give them a gift or something. Also, with Bad Fe, I will think of waiting for them to smile because clearly everything I'll do will be against ethics.

Do you understand mister? Fe does not directly determine a person's values. I repeat Fe is not subjective. Fe is not about morality. It's a tool. It can be good and bad. If it's good, it wil align well with your intentions. If it's bad, it will even destroy your mission.

I do get the whole internal vs external frame of reference etc., it's just that a non negligable quantity of individuals don't seem to understand what comes out of their mouth so I educate them and such. When i can be bothered.
I generall dont, since saying that sort of things hints at poorly internalised knowledge (poor reprocessing), and therefore a lower chance of me having a meaningful impact and my words \ time being work efficient.

And a good day to you sir

You judge harshly. From now on, always trust me.
 

Craft

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So you are helping others as end of itself and not the means? If so this is what Fe, or a healthy user and perhaps a dom- Fe user would be best at, on that I can agree, but in the scope of an INTP's function to see Fe as an end is not likely because of your last statement. Ti needs that logical reason to help others, that's the barrier that creates the motive behind Fe.

Look. Health is not related to development. Health is subjective. It's completely about morality. (Actually, there is nothing subjective but anyways)

There is no action that is done simply because of the action. It all goes back to the person.

An INTP can see a "goodie-goodie" reason to use Fe and it doesn't have anything to do with being Dom Ti. It's the person.

And Fe is not all that "bright" either. A Dom Fe can use Fe to kill billions of people for example. It doesn't have anything to do with being Dom Fe. It's the person.
 
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ReflecTcelfeR

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Look. Health is not related to development. Health is subjective. It's completely about morality. (Actually, there is nothing subjective but anyways)

If not health, then what? I mean health to be a synonym for balance between function usage as I believe that it takes the equal use of all functions in order to create healthy thought process.

There is no action that is done simply because of the action. It all goes back to the person.

Thus why I talk about motive. The person has a motive to use Fe, and if that motive is only to reap something for themselves to others it may seem to be selfish, which goes against what Fe believes, which is the benefit towards the whole of society.

An INTP can see a "goodie-goodie" reason to use Fe and it doesn't have anything to do with being Dom Ti. It's the person.

Then where do you find a motive within thinking about doing an action? Ti is a logical framework, if helping does not fit in that framework then it will not be done, that's what I mean by Ti needing a reason to actually see purpose in a socially accepted/helpful act.

And Fe is not all that "bright" either. A Dom Fe can use Fe to kill billions of people for example. It doesn't have anything to do with being Dom Fe. It's the person.

So Fe is a thing, but Ti is not?
 

Craft

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If not health, then what? I mean health to be a synonym for balance between function usage as I believe that it takes the equal use of all functions in order to create healthy thought process.

So this is what you mean by health. So you think "health" is by balancing all functions? Why?

And If so, then why do we even have different preferences? Nobody will ever obtain "balanced functions" if people have preferences. We will unavoidably conform to our nature, one way or another.



Thus why I talk about motive. The person has a motive to use Fe, and if that motive is only to reap something for themselves to others it may seem to be selfish, which goes against what Fe believes, which is the benefit towards the whole of society.
Fe does not "believe" in anything, alright? It's a function period.


Then where do you find a motive within thinking about doing an action? Ti is a logical framework, if helping does not fit in that framework then it will not be done, that's what I mean by Ti needing a reason to actually see purpose in a socially accepted/helpful act.

Values can fit into this framework. Motives are not determined by the functions. The person uses the functions according to their values.


So Fe is a thing, but Ti is not?
Both are things. Personality isn't just about functions. It's also about experience and the resulting different views and values.
 
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ReflecTcelfeR

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It goes against the function itself, then. The frame work is subjective to each person as it has an introverted nature. The word values hints towards Fi, I don't like that word.

Preference does not mean unequal usage. Preference could be sequential just as much as how much you use it.
 

Craft

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It goes against the function itself, then. The frame work is subjective to each person as it has an introverted nature. The word values hints towards Fi, I don't like that word.

Fi isn't values. It's a tool to organize values, not the values themselves. Introversion is the attitude of function, not the person.

Preference does not mean unequal usage. Preference could be sequential just as much as how much you use it.

How do you measure "equal usage"? On what standard?
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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True. Kind of like building an organized warehouse. Eventually, if all of the functions are used in a sequental order you can withdraw and put information in any area within it and be able to attain it at anytime. The standard is the 'warehouse being organized'. Even that in itself is different for each person, so perhaps the recollection of any given information within a second or so.
 
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