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[NT] NTs the most effective liars?

MetalWounds

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First, I will start by saying that the xNTxs that I know and work with on a daily basis are generally the most forthright and honest people. However, I have noticed that they also tend to be the most cunning liars when they choose to do so, and they are almost without flaw.

xNFx- They can be just as convincing as xNTxs, however, generally only if they are doing so to help someone, or if they believe that someone has violated them somehow. Otherwise they are seemingly less adept at this.

xSxJ- Often the less decisive will be fooled, however, they often provide too much information. This usually leads more intuitive people to notice the inconsistencies in the proposed "facts".

xSxP- Most of the xSxPs I know are terrible liars. (Not that that's a bad thing by any means) ESTPs, if unquestioned, can be extremely persuasive. Once you begin to question them they have a very hard time maintaining the facade.

I think that the key to lying in this sense is the ability to think quickly and be able to "paint a believable picture". It's my observation that sensing types tend to be at a disadvantage in this arena.

This is more of an observation on my behalf of those that I encounter on a regular basis, and not entire types' demographic in general. It is very possible an erroneous conclusion, however, it seems to hold true more often than not.

Let me know what you think/have observed, as I am interested to hear it.
 

Night

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Curious.

I'd imagine the most efficient liar (such that the "lie" is realized as a veritable truth, wherein ultimate discovery is incumbent upon the "liar" and not his subject(s)) is hinged on a sophisticated appreciation for whom the lie is intended.

As the central variables are human, it seems logical to assemble the "ideal" liar as one with an intimate appreciation for how emotion and logic connect to form perception. The NF and NT seem best suited to fulfill this general template, yet remain orphaned unless their aim involves a realistic representation of intellectual traits - both internal and those gleaned from their subject(s). This balance seems the mark of the SP.

I suppose the most concise answer would be to appeal to the vanities of one's target. I'd wager this is less a consequence of MBTI and more an indication of intimacy.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I think it works on different levels.
NTs may seems more cunning somehow, but the empathic force of NFs can make them very persuasive liars.

I'd say the in two letters with the most distinct concentration of lying skills is EN. I can say that ENs are clearly better liars than ESs, ISs, or INs.
 

MetalWounds

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.

I suppose the most concise answer would be to appeal to the vanities of one's target. I'd wager this is less a consequence of MBTI and more an indication of intimacy.

Intriguing point, it would seem quite rational that the most effective deceiver would be one with with the most thorough understanding of whom he was attempting to persuade. In a much more neutral stance, without the bias of prior relationship, it would seem evident that a dominant Ni or Ti would be the most effective tools for orchestrating, and sustaining imposed misconception upon the receiving party.
 

Night

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Intriguing point, it would seem quite rational that the most effective deceiver would be one with with the most thorough understanding of whom he was attempting to persuade. In a much more neutral stance, without the bias of prior relationship, it would seem evident that a dominant Ni or Ti would be the most effective tools for orchestrating, and sustaining imposed misconception upon the receiving party.

Indeed - or at least sustaining the imposed misconception upon himself. :)

Critical to the continuity of the lie is the level of coherence found in the user. Self-doubt is often the first indication of weakness.
 

miss fortune

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I would think that intelligence level would come into play quite a bit as well- sure an unintelligent xSxP may slip up with thier lie- as would a less intelligent xNTx or any other type. The best liars are simply those who remember who they told what to.

Another useful quality in lying is the ability to read the face and body language of the person to whom you are lying- if they start giving signs of disbeleif, it's best to change strategies as opposed to have them mark you as a liar- if they give signs that they are taking the bait go ahead and drive your lie home. Being able to control one's own face and body language are also useful in lying- as there are telltale traits of a liar, and if you are aware of these you can avoid doing them. ;)

I would think that the ability to read another person's body language would be more closely related with Se or Fe perhaps, which would place xSxPs at an advantage. :) From my own personal experience, xNTxs are less aware of the body language of themselves and others!

This is just my own opinion- and for an added note- I'm a good liar! :devil:
 

Night

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Is this not the most fundamental element of an effective lie?

Maybe.

The truly impressive tend to blur the distinction between what is "true" and what has become "truth-like" consequent to their deceit.
 

MetalWounds

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I would think that the ability to read another person's body language would be more closely related with Se or Fe perhaps, which would place xSxPs at an advantage. :) From my own personal experience, xNTxs are less aware of the body language of themselves and others!

This is just my own opinion- and for an added note- I'm a good liar! :devil:

In my experience, xNTxs are generally the most difficult to read body language or facial expression from. Se would be effective at reading most and discerning reality from falsehood, but lacking in pattern building, would have difficulty dismantling more elaborate lies that appear truthful. Someone with a dominant Fe would effective only to the point that a falsehood is detected, as body language and facial expression would be distinctly evident in such a type. I have no doubt that you are a good liar, most ESTPs are.
 

Camelopardalis

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Haha. I know exactly how to lie... Before my conscience gets to me anyway. There's only one thing I would ever lie about and be at ease with myself is practicing piano. I don't want to practice, but I didn't want to be yelled at everyday for not doing so. So I lied. It's amazing and unsettling how I can tell lies with a perfectly straight face. Most of the time I'm honest. In fact, brutally honest... It's not that I don't know how to have tact and act, but I really don't like beating around the bush. When my friends ask my opinion on how they look when trying on a dress, and if they look ridiculous, I would tell them that. It's better for them that they know now (and possibly a little put out by my lack of tact) than have to be seen looking like that, because believe or not, if you want my opinion, you get it. It's that simple.

Whenever my mother caught me lying, I'd get in trouble, understandably, but what amuses me is that out of the few times she caught me (believe me, I used to do this every day until High School workload really gets to me and I don't even need to lie), she thought she can read me like a book and that she would 'always' know when I'm lying.
 

substitute

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The best lies (most convincing, hardest to spring) are the simplest. The ones where you change as few details from the truth as possible, so that what you're telling is very nearly the truth - it just veers off in another direction at one point where it's perfectly logical that it might do so.

NF's and SJ's in my experience tend to feel too bad about lying, to be particularly effective at it, having generally somewhat stronger moral centres. They 'know' it's wrong, and that guilt is like a label on their foreheads.

If the idea is that NT's can lie through our teeth because we're clever and less scrupulous about moral details (easily circumventing them with a bit of intellectual sophistry), then I hardly think that's something to boast about.
 

Mycroft

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If the idea is that NT's can lie through our teeth because we're clever and less scrupulous about moral details (easily circumventing them with a bit of intellectual sophistry), then I hardly think that's something to boast about.

It's not something to feel bad about, either. It's neutral.
 

substitute

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It's not something to feel bad about, either. It's neutral.

...Illustrating my point exactly :D

It's not something we'd feel bad about, and we would say it's neutral. Not so most other types... to them, lying is lying is lying, and it's just plain wrong. Sure there might be the odd occasion when they really do justify it (e.g. bride asks on wedding morning "does my butt look big in this?"), but on the whole, I'd say they'd avoid lying unless absolutely necessary for someone else's benefit.

NT's will just lie to further our aims/points. We're a rum lot, and I include myself in that.
 

Ezra

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I think it works on different levels.
NTs may seems more cunning somehow, but the empathic force of NFs can make them very persuasive liars.

Building on what you've said, using Keirsey, NFs are most effective at Diplomacy. And I think of the four temperaments' skills, Diplomacy entails a silvertongue best. They're kings of oratory, masters of rhetoric; the perfect politicians. Alternatively, you could say SPs are good at lying, especially ESTPs. You know the cliche; the 'hard sell' of the car salesman.
 

substitute

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Building on what you've said, using Keirsey, NFs are most effective at Diplomacy. And I think of the four temperaments' skills, Diplomacy entails a silvertongue best. They're kings of oratory, masters of rhetoric; the perfect politicians. Alternatively, you could say SPs are good at lying, especially ESTPs. You know the cliche; the 'hard sell' of the car salesman.

ENTP and ENFP as a team together could sell sand to an Arab.

(mind you, using my brother and I as an example of an ENTP/ENFP team, it's not usually so much by effective lying that we 'sell' or persuade, but by presenting true facts in a creative light that appeals most effectively to the person we're persuading... presenting things in such as way as to make them lead to only one conclusion - the only thing a reasonable and decent person would do - which just happens to be what we want them to do)
 

Night

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True. I'm unconcerned with "morality". "Morals" is what the self-righteous call their opinions.

...Illustrating my point exactly :D

It's not something we'd feel bad about, and we would say it's neutral. Not so most other types... to them, lying is lying is lying, and it's just plain wrong. Sure there might be the odd occasion when they really do justify it (e.g. bride asks on wedding morning "does my butt look big in this?"), but on the whole, I'd say they'd avoid lying unless absolutely necessary for someone else's benefit.

NT's will just lie to further our aims/points. We're a rum lot, and I include myself in that.


Interesting.

Both positions seem to needle at a values-based decision template that, for my dime, appears better an indication of personal intellectual experience than MBTI mores.

Yet, should we decide to operate from the conclusion that MBTI could generate a lingua franca within subtypes, to end does one distinguish within a regional bracket (NT/NF/SP), the quirks that serve to further prune these idiosyncrasies?

To the OP, would an INFJ or an ENFJ better cultivate a lie? In terms of probability, I don't think it fair to fishhook the "E" as naturally disadvantaged to his otherwise-reciprocal "I" by virtue of his extroversion.

As a sidebar, what do you believe provides the critical mass that might separate the INTJ from, say, the ISTP?

For the sake of simplicity, we'll assume the lie is of equal intellectual heft for all parties - wherein then does the disparity arise?
 

substitute

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Yeah Night, the lingua franca within types is true for sure. I often see it happen here - an NT will say something that other NT's know means a certain thing, but other types will often misunderstand and think something else is meant - because they're all speaking different languages, in a way. I think it's not so much the words that change their meanings, as all the assumed baggage that comes with the words and phrases is different in general for different types, or just different people at all, but there's more likelihood of overlap between people who are more similar in temperament.

I mean to say that when a person makes a statement or proposition, there are usually a load of disclaimers and caveats that they assume are taken as read by the listener - they aren't always. When NT's talk to each other, they more often seem to 'sense' each other's caveats, or even share them... so it kinda is like using specialized vocabulary.

A bit like if I say "collect" to many people, they'd assume I mean "gather a load of stuff together", whilst if I say it to a priest, they'd probably first of all think of "a short prayer that comes after the opening parts of the Mass"; to a delivery driver "obtain and take with you". None of the meanings is more correct than another, but depending who you're talking to, you've a different chance of being misunderstood and a different level of necessity to dot the i's and cross the t's in order to make sure you're understood.

Much of what's perceived as 'lying' is, IMO, actually cross-communication of this kind. I said I'd do X (variant 1), you assumed I meant X(variant 2); I did X1, you accuse me of lying because IYO, I said I'd do X2.

I've come to see the NT ease with circumventing morality as somewhat jerkish, and though it's a tendency I fall into as well, I'm aware of it and in the process of overcoming it. The fact that it (i.e. the automatic disinclination to use lying) doesn't come easily is, I think, illustration of the ease with which many NT's can lie... it's because it's so much easier to use lying for some ends that I find it difficult to resist using it, in favour of less efficient, but more ethical means.

As for ISTP's - and SP's generally, my spider sense says it's lies of omission that they're more adept/inclined towards. As opposed to the 'tangled web' approach.
 

Night

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Yeah Night, the lingua franca within types is true for sure. I often see it happen here - an NT will say something that other NT's know means a certain thing, but other types will often misunderstand and think something else is meant - because they're all speaking different languages, in a way.

When NT's talk to each other, they more often seem to 'sense' each other's caveats, or even share them... so it kinda is like using specialized vocabulary.

A bit like if I say "collect" to many people, they'd assume I mean "gather a load of stuff together", whilst if I say it to a priest, they'd probably first of all think of "a short prayer that comes after the opening parts of the Mass"; to a delivery driver "obtain and take with you".

I've come to see the NT ease with circumventing morality as somewhat jerkish, and though it's a tendency I fall into as well, I'm aware of it and in the process of overcoming it. The fact that it (i.e. the automatic disinclination to use lying) doesn't come easily is, I think, illustration of the ease with which many NT's can lie... it's because it's so much easier to use lying for some ends that I find it difficult to resist using it, in favour of less efficient, but more ethical means.

Curious.

I'd yet anticipate morality as an alogical addendum to the principles that sincerely connect NTs - or other types, for that matter. I suspect the traits that commonly braid are likely less specific.

I wonder if NTs would instinctually recognize their own?

How might you divide the NT from the SF?
 
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