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[NT] NTs the most effective liars?

MX5

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Oct 12, 2007
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This is a curious realization, as it implies willful stagnation.

I struggle to imagine a premise where I would remain satisfied with the corpus of my ignorance, such that I currently realize to be (as yet beyond my acuity) and, if only to protect some shadow of psychological independence, I imprison myself within it.

Perhaps this isn't the case with you, but I assure you it is with me.
I wouldn't characterize it so much as being satisfied with the status quo, but rather (on my part) a lack of comprehension, or absence of realization that there exists some system of thinking that is "other" than my own. Not that mine is the only possibility - I simply fail to see a different state of mind. "Rational blinders" as it were.

Do you foresee yourself ever ascending into "enlightenment" wherein yours is instead a multitude of sharpened perspectives cooperating into a visceral, intellectual sledgehammer?
...only through dilligent, applied effort. That image is appealing though, and perhaps worth the effort.

Yeah, MX5 basically said better what I was trying to say... plus, I wasn't saying that the fluidity was arrogance and egotism, but that it can be misused out of arrogance and egotism, when the person believes it's being rightly used out of integrity (that's what they tell themselves).
Ah yes, the misuse of that "trait" (through arrogance and egotism) is seductive!
 

Night

Boring old fossil
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I wouldn't characterize it so much as being satisfied with the status quo, but rather (on my part) a lack of comprehension, or absence of realization that there exists some system of thinking that is "other" than my own. Not that mine is the only possibility - I simply fail to see a different state of mind. "Rational blinders" as it were.


...only through dilligent, applied effort. That image is appealing though, and perhaps worth the effort.

Well said, my friend. I wish you the very best.
 

INTJMom

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First, I will start by saying that the xNTxs that I know and work with on a daily basis are generally the most forthright and honest people. However, I have noticed that they also tend to be the most cunning liars when they choose to do so, and they are almost without flaw.

xNFx- They can be just as convincing as xNTxs, however, generally only if they are doing so to help someone, or if they believe that someone has violated them somehow. Otherwise they are seemingly less adept at this.

xSxJ- Often the less decisive will be fooled, however, they often provide too much information. This usually leads more intuitive people to notice the inconsistencies in the proposed "facts".

xSxP- Most of the xSxPs I know are terrible liars. (Not that that's a bad thing by any means) ESTPs, if unquestioned, can be extremely persuasive. Once you begin to question them they have a very hard time maintaining the facade.

I think that the key to lying in this sense is the ability to think quickly and be able to "paint a believable picture". It's my observation that sensing types tend to be at a disadvantage in this arena.

This is more of an observation on my behalf of those that I encounter on a regular basis, and not entire types' demographic in general. It is very possible an erroneous conclusion, however, it seems to hold true more often than not.

Let me know what you think/have observed, as I am interested to hear it.
When I was a child I lied habitually in order to avoid severe physical abuse by my parents, and I was very good at it.

I learned to value honesty very highly, and now I think I hardly ever - if ever - lie at all. I have a "thing" about the truth. My desire for truth is actually annoying to some of my family members. LOL! Even to me sometimes! :smile:
 

substitute

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I relate to that INTJMom...

Actually, from when I was about 9 I got into the habit of lying all the time about stupid things, to impress people. By my early twenties I was pretty close to being a compulsive liar; it seems so obvious now, but at the time it took a lotta therapy for me to realize I was lying because I didn't think it was possible for anyone to like me for who I truly was, so I had to pretend to be someone else and lie about literally almost every aspect of my life. Even really stupid things, like someone would ask me where I went for a walk to and I'd say the post office instead of the grocery store - totally pointless.

Took a lot of getting out of because it had become a reflex action and half the time I believed my own lies.
 

armstrongvk12

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First, I will start by saying that the xNTxs that I know and work with on a daily basis are generally the most forthright and honest people. However, I have noticed that they also tend to be the most cunning liars when they choose to do so, and they are almost without flaw.

xNFx- They can be just as convincing as xNTxs, however, generally only if they are doing so to help someone, or if they believe that someone has violated them somehow. Otherwise they are seemingly less adept at this.

xSxJ- Often the less decisive will be fooled, however, they often provide too much information. This usually leads more intuitive people to notice the inconsistencies in the proposed "facts".

xSxP- Most of the xSxPs I know are terrible liars. (Not that that's a bad thing by any means) ESTPs, if unquestioned, can be extremely persuasive. Once you begin to question them they have a very hard time maintaining the facade.
Interesting thread! I know only one NT (INTP) who lies....and is the most manipulative individual I have EVER known. He also became furious when I told him that I knew he was lying and provided him with proof, something his SJ wife never seemed to be able to do. All of the other NTs I know...are extremely honest, and quite frankly, I don't think they can be bothered to lie...as it takes too much effort, etc.

The NFs that I know do lie (ENFJ), but the NF (INFJ)....just avoids....to get out of technically LYING.

Hhmmm......SJs....not too good at lying as they seem to have trouble thinking on their feet. You're right, they provide WAY too much information...and aren't cunning enough to keep their mouths shut...as they chatter on constantly! SJs also don't seem to be able to read people and don't seem to be observant enough to determine if the OTHER person is lying.
 

MetalWounds

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Interesting thread! I know only one NT (INTP) who lies....and is the most manipulative individual I have EVER known. He also became furious when I told him that I knew he was lying and provided him with proof, something his SJ wife never seemed to be able to do. All of the other NTs I know...are extremely honest, and quite frankly, I don't think they can be bothered to lie...as it takes too much effort, etc.

The NFs that I know do lie (ENFJ), but the NF (INFJ)....just avoids....to get out of technically LYING.

Hhmmm......SJs....not too good at lying as they seem to have trouble thinking on their feet. You're right, they provide WAY too much information...and aren't cunning enough to keep their mouths shut...as they chatter on constantly! SJs also don't seem to be able to read people and don't seem to be observant enough to determine if the OTHER person is lying.

I don't know weather or not ENFJs are better at lying, per se, that they can most often "charm" the other party into seeing their point of view. The ENFJs I have known have a terrible ability to misdirect, once you throw them off their locus of Ideals. I.E. having to lie about something that they don't truly believe in. xNTxs are more likely to for-see future events and do their best to avoid a situation in which they are forced to lie.
 

machintruc

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Jan 31, 2008
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ENTJ
I'm not really effective at lying. Even at "bad" situations ; lying can make them worse.

I lie very very seldom. Less than 3 times a year.
 

white

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Consider motivations, before effectiveness, maybe.

Perhaps the NT liars are effective, because it frequently isn't an outright untruth, but more of a selective truth, which works to create an impression the NT is not bothered to correct.

What is a lie - a counter to/of reality?

If that is the case, an ideal is a lie, isn't it, since no reality can meet an ideal.

By clinging to truth, ideals, principles, we create a deep need for illusion, paradoxically.

So the NT could be the most effective at it simply because they're incapable of seeing the lies as wrong - "rational blinders". In their search for perfect systems - what can be, the gaps created due to what is, are too easy to fill with lies. And a lie to the self, if believed, makes a more convincing liar to externals, simply.

At their worst,

INTPs lie to themselves that they are better than others, can game any system: it is this that creates the illusion of competence they seek, but raises expectations they later suffer from, when reality intrudes.

ENTPs need masks to live. We suffer when some possibilities are closed, and are apt to select what truths to tell (the flex referred to earlier), in order to keep options open.

INTJs play cold games of subterfuge in an attempt to control from the inside and test boundaries to select their path. Failure to consider opinions of others deemed "not worth it/not up to the mark" could lead to being blindsided, simply because an opinion could hold truth, independent of the speaker. If you've ever tried to get a point of realism through to an INTJ in full swing, you'll know what this means.

ENTJs wear the masks of ENTPs to seek the same rule INTJs do. But there is only one truth - theirs. Is this not a lie? To whom?

So.. perhaps the NT is most effective, because they've the greatest need for illusion, to close the gap between the unreachable ideal and the reality.
 

The Ü™

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I dunno what we mean by lying, but ENxPs tend to be highly effective at imitating other people. The difference between an ESxP and an ENxP is like the difference between a movie star and an actor. A movie star imitates him/herself while an actor is adept at imitating imaginary characters.

An alternative theory suggests that ESxPs are personalities while INxJs imitate another personality because of their lack of confidence in their ability to use their inferior Se. With the INxJ, this is often to protect themselves because their Se function is so underdeveloped, hence the INxJ (and INTJ, in particular) often tries to appear more self-confident than he/she actually is.

The ENxJ is more confident about demonstrating a cunning ability in the outside world, since they are extroverted. But they are not quite confident in their Se ability by itself, but they are more confident in showing their acting ability in front of other people -- the ENxJ can very likely be the kind of person that talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
 

Garivande

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My ENFP daughter is clearly an actor, and certainly has earned herself a reputation of being a "good" lier. The thing is she can't keep it up. If you wait a minute or so she will reveal everything - because she absolutely cannot keep a secret! And she has never tricked me (or maybe this is a mother thing...).

We discussed this the other day, my older INTP daughter claimed that the ENFP one was a "notorious" lier. Which is rather unfair. I replied that I think that the INTP one is just as good a lier - except nobody will ever find out!

I think that the "I" quality makes it easier to keep a facade. The "N" makes it easier to create a believable story, and if you're more "T" than "F" you will probably feel less bothered about lying to other people? And perhaps the "P" will make you think that any consequenses from lying will be dealt with in a very far and unpredictable future...

I very seldom lie, it's more practical to tell the truth: you don't have to remember any fabricated facts when asked later...
But if I lie, I do a good job doing it. Since I'm usually seen as very honest and perhaps even a little naive, I am always trusted when I set up an "innocent" face and present this or that story (some of my friends say they never know when I'm joking or when I'm serious - so when I am joking I must always add a "signal" smile...!).
However, I don't lie well in "real time" - I must have time to manufacture the actual "story"!
 

MX5

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Perhaps the NT liars are effective, because it frequently isn't an outright untruth, but more of a selective truth, which works to create an impression the NT is not bothered to correct.
You have uncovered me!

This is where I do my most "damage", to tell a portion of "the truth" - enough to satisfy the desires of a questioner, but not the whole story. Why? Because the "gory details" of my full existence are on a "need to know" basis - and most people do not need to know. Besides, most people only want to confirm their own preconceptions anyway, and are not terribly concerned with "the truth". So why not give them what they want?

So the NT could be the most effective at it simply because they're incapable of seeing the lies as wrong - "rational blinders". In their search for perfect systems - what can be, the gaps created due to what is, are too easy to fill with lies. And a lie to the self, if believed, makes a more convincing liar to externals, simply.
My "rational blinders" are to the emotional needs of others - a failure to recognize that someone else wants something other than logic and rationality from me. As such I am ignorant of those needs and unable to comply.

When I produce an outright lie, or even a partial-truth I am fully aware of that occurance. I am also, in the case of an outright lie, aware that this is "not right", but - in true INTJ fashion - I do it because it accomplishes some purpose. I'm sure the phrase, "The end justifies the means", was coined by an INTJ (or at least an NT of some sort)!

Lying to one's self is an interesting proposition! I have yet to be clever enough to "trick" myself into believing my own lies. Whenever I start down that path a little voice chimes in and says, "Now you know you don't really believe that?!". Of course, that doesn't stop me from acting on that falsehood, but I am cognizant of the subterfuge. I've "lied" to myself about relationships, about motivations for doing things, about my self-reliance; but in each case, I knew that I was trying to pull the wool over my own eyes. It's a strange thing to experience!
 

Priam

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I very seldom lie, it's more practical to tell the truth: you don't have to remember any fabricated facts when asked later...
But if I lie, I do a good job doing it. Since I'm usually seen as very honest and perhaps even a little naive, I am always trusted when I set up an "innocent" face and present this or that story (some of my friends say they never know when I'm joking or when I'm serious - so when I am joking I must always add a "signal" smile...!).
However, I don't lie well in "real time" - I must have time to manufacture the actual "story"!

I like this point a lot. NTs lie from a point of practicality, whereas I've known a lot of other types who do it more from a place of whimsy. When taken from a practical standpoint (i.e. there's a very good reason to lie vs tell the truth), there's motivation to keep the lie intact and coherent. It also rests on the desire for streamlining and simple efficiency. Why tell an elaborate lie when a small one will do the trick much better? Or, as others have said, merely twisting the partial truth so it sounds complete? Very little to no evidence to fabricate, low risk of confusion, and long term sustainability against memory dissonance (most of what you remember is exactly what you told someone else).
 

INTJMom

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...
Perhaps the NT liars are effective, because it frequently isn't an outright untruth, but more of a selective truth, which works to create an impression the NT is not bothered to correct.
...
I used to do this very frequently and skillfully.

Now I am usually completely transparent with people. I don't hide anything.
 

Priam

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I used to do this very frequently and skillfully.

Now I am usually completely transparent with people. I don't hide anything.

I think the cause is helped by not lying when others would. Multiple people have said the same thing from their own personal experiences: "Normally I'm so blunt and honest that nobody expects me to lie."

It's a rare (and usually extreme) case when an NT will bother to lie in order to preserve feelings or hide personal shame. I find I normally lie in order to preserve the secrets or dignity of others instead of myself, because I cannot give their consent for my disclosure. When it's down to me or my actions? At most I drop very small, soothing untruths to smooth the way for a task or meeting.
 

MX5

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I used to do this very frequently and skillfully.

Now I am usually completely transparent with people. I don't hide anything.
I'm guessing that what follows will come off as being completely stupid, but at that risk...

I have found that people really don't want "complete transparency". My experience has been that there are extreme emotional outbursts, and violent reactions to "full disclosure" in relationship matters, religious matters, and anything where the recipient has a large "stake" in the disclosure. On the one hand we're told to respect the feelings of others, while on the other hand we're admonished for being brutally honest (even the term has negative connotations).

So, if I tell my co-worker, "You know Bob, you're a loud-mouthed ignoramous who gets on everyone's nerves. Everyone in the office hates you.", then I'm not hiding anything - but, perhaps I should. Or, if I tell my wife, "Honey, your jealous tirades are only the manifestation of your insipid insecurity and it's driving a wedge between you and I", then I'm giving full disclosure, but perhaps I shouldn't.

I prefer saying, "Bob, you have a lot of ideas - why don't you take some time and write them down and I'll take them to the Board for review", and, "Honey, you have nothing to worry about with Susie. I think it's cute that you're concerned" - both "lies", but more palatable to the hearer.

As the saying goes, "...you can't handle the truth!"
 

Usehername

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May 30, 2007
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My dad just told me this story last year; apparently it happened when I was 11-13. I don't remember it.

(Keep in mind he's an ENFP.)
He was all excited about this thing he learned at work on an inservice school day (he's a teacher) about "Islands of Competency" and got all inspired about it; he wanted all his students and us kids to realize our true selves. So, in a long car ride, we talked all about it. He told me some of his, how he discovered them along the way in life. He told me that if we know our strengths we can use them for the benefit of others.
Then came my turn, and he asked, "Usehername, what's your greatest Island of Competency?" And apparently I very nonchalantly replied, "I'm a phenomenal liar." I was just being honest; I perceived it as my greatest Island of Competency.

And he said a little part of him died inside. lol. poor NF daddy.
 

The Ü™

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My mom's boyfriend is an ENxP who works as a caller at Progressive Auto Insurance. Everyday he comes home and talks about what happened during his day, but seeing how he does it everyday and it's always an interesting story (he's not just telling it in an interesting way), we all doubt what he's saying is true. But I think that he would be very effective at lying to a stranger. He is definitely Ne dominant because he insufferably bounces wacky but unrealistic ideas (which I truthfully think are very cool, such as his proposition of building a water slide going out the bathroom window).
 
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