[INTP] INTPs and Feelings

[ExAstrisSpes]

This has become a somewhat common exchange between me and my bf:

Me: "I have feelings for you/I care for you"
Him: "I know - it shows because of X, Y, Z"
Me:

I sense that he has feelings for me and cares for me, but it's not something I want to assume, even though from his perspective it's probably obvious. The relationship is otherwise going really well, but this is one of the communication things that has me puzzled. If he doesn't feel comfortable sharing his feelings verbally with me I don't want to force it (which is why I haven't asked him), but at the same time I feel insecure in the relationship sometimes because I really don't know how he feels for me and I don't feel comfortable assuming.

A mutual friend told me that engineer-types tend to look at every statement as a problem statement, and if a statement isn't a problem then they state why the statement is a true statement, which is how you get this circular conversation of "I have feelings for you", "Yes I know".

So I suppose what I'm getting at is that I'd like some acknowledgment of his emotional attachment but it'd be nice if it was volunteered instead of my asking-if-it-is-the-case (as that seems rude and pushy to me). But I don't know how to illicit that beyond offering my own statement of emotional attachment, which hasn't worked so far (and shows no sign of working in the future).

 

[JocktheMotie]

Often, INTPs are far, far more expression through action/deed/continued cohabitation rather than verbal. Verbal is very tough, because often they cannot verbalize feelings without feeling absurd.

That doesn't let him off the hook though. You need to make it clear that you need some kind of verbal affirmation in order to feel loved and know where you stand. Most likely, expressing that you need verbal affirmation because you like to have an accurate picture of the status of the relationship will make it easier for him to understand, and less likely to make him feel like he's being pressured by what he assumes to be your insecurities.

Expression will always be hard for INTPs, and NTs in general, really. Usually biggest thing to work on when dating other types.

 

[ExAstrisSpes]

How do I go about bringing it up? Just as absurd as it is for an INTP to verbalize feelings, I feel absurd asking for it. Is it really so simple as to say, "Hey, sometimes it would be nice to hear X, because it lets me know where things are between us and I don't like guessing"?

We had a state-of-the-relationship discussion last month, which was kind of the first storm we weathered through (and ended with him acknowledging on his own that we were bf/gf AND that he wanted to be more emotionally available to me. I was !). I'm a bit reluctant to bring any other emotional gooey-ness up so soon, even though I feel it and it's there. I don't mind being patient because I know it's draining for him, and he does things out-of-the-blue that make me want to assume the gooey-ness is there (like e-mailing me for no reason or calling me up to talk for half an hour).

 

[Spamtar]

Let him know you are fishing for complements/reciprocation when you complement him and see if he is OK with responding as you want.

Maybe he simply doesn't love you and doesn't want to hurt your feelings but then again maybe he does but doesn't have a clue.

Or perhaps thinks this convention on reciprocal complements is cheesy and its lame to take the bait.

Perhaps instead he would prefer to choose for his own time to tell you he loves you.

Different game from the usual type when you play with INTPs (especially those not hip to the courtship rituals).

 

[cafe]

I guess you could tell him you are glad he finds your actions speaking as loudly as your words and that you understand that words of affection probably don't hold a lot of value for him, but that they mean a lot to you and you would appreciate hearing how he feels about you in words as well as in actions if he feels comfortable at some point with doing that. I dunno.

I joke with my INTP about needing my pats on the head and he's gotten pretty good about giving me the verbal affirmation I need. They can do it if they know it's needed and they are willing to stretch a little.

 

[Stevo]

it's mostly something that's difficult to get started. It took me a month to be able to tell my current girlfriend that I thought she was pretty, let alone lots of other things I was feeling at the time. But, at least for me, once the floodgates were open the verbal affirmation was much easier to give when needed. I'm still working on some aspects, like being able to tell her what I find attractive sexually, but it'll happen. Just tell him that's what you need and help him get used to verbally complimenting you. It worked for me.

edit---
Some other thoughts. Try to foster a habit of complete openness with each other. I try my hardest to make sure I don't hide or hold back anything from my SO. I consider her my equal and partner in everything I do and so I always tell her what I'm thinking or feeling without equivocation. Again this comes down to the issue of getting the ball rolling as I'm not quite sure how I would introduce this to him in conversation. I mean, for me, it's something that comes with every relationship I attempt, or at least should, in order to prevent conflict due to miscommunication and foster a deeper bond of trust.

 

[ExAstrisSpes]

I guess you could tell him you are glad he finds your actions speaking as loudly as your words and that you understand that words of affection probably don't hold a lot of value for him, but that they mean a lot to you and you would appreciate hearing how he feels about you in words as well as in actions if he feels comfortable at some point with doing that. I dunno.

I joke with my INTP about needing my pats on the head and he's gotten pretty good about giving me the verbal affirmation I need. They can do it if they know it's needed and they are willing to stretch a little.

He's certainly expressed that he's willing to stretch a little, but I guess I'm a little shy of asking what I want and need (it's a recurring problem in my relationships that I'm trying really hard to address in this one).

it's mostly something that's difficult to get started. It took me a month to be able to tell my current girlfriend that I thought she was pretty, let alone lots of other things I was feeling at the time. But, at least for me, once the floodgates were open the verbal affirmation was much easier to give when needed. I'm still working on some aspects, like being able to tell her what I find attractive sexually, but it'll happen. Just tell him that's what you need and help him get used to verbally complimenting you. It worked for me.

edit---
Some other thoughts. Try to foster a habit of complete openness with each other. I try my hardest to make sure I don't hide or hold back anything from my SO. I consider her my equal and partner in everything I do and so I always tell her what I'm thinking or feeling without equivocation. Again this comes down to the issue of getting the ball rolling as I'm not quite sure how I would introduce this to him in conversation. I mean, for me, it's something that comes with every relationship I attempt, or at least should, in order to prevent conflict due to miscommunication and foster a deeper bond of trust.

Has your girlfriend said or done anything that made it easier for you to open up to her? He does compliment me and we're open about that. He has said that he "likes me" or "really likes me" in the past, but I guess I don't know how to make that leap from "I like you" to "I have feelings/I care for you". I don't want to be pushy but I do sense those feelings are there (he e-mailed me twice this morning already - which is new - and bought an impromptu gift for me over the weekend).

Thank you for your constructive comments! to everyone!

 

[Stevo]

Has your girlfriend said or done anything that made it easier for you to open up to her?

Mostly she just kept smothering me in compliments and other such affectations until I figured I owed her to start myself. This approach is rather risky however. It could also quite quickly go the other way and lend him to start pushing you away if he is not comfortable with constantly being complimented.

 

[Redbone]

Has he ever said how he feels at all? For myself, once I state how I feel, then that's how it is until I say otherwise. It took me a while to realize that some people want to hear how you feel even if you've said it before. From my POV, it was redundant and silly (I'm with you, how could I not have feelings for you?) and I didn't want that. I think that if I were in a relationship now the thing that would make me be open about how I felt or expressing it would be the level of safety and trust I felt in the relationship.

If it is also presented to me as a problem, I'd want to solve it. If my partner said, "I need _______________. I'm asking for it because it is important to me and it will help keep our relationship running smoothly. What do you think?" That would make me do it because I care enough to want to do things right for the relationship even if those are not my needs.

 

[Tallulah]

I think I would just gently ask, if you want to know if he has feelings for you. It could be, as others have said, that he's just shy about expressing them or shows his feelings in other ways. Or it could be that he's not there yet, but likes you enough to stick around and see where it goes.

Also, he might not be able to pinpoint exactly how he feels, and is reserving commitment until he knows for sure.

 

[mochajava]

Redbone: If it is also presented to me as a problem, I'd want to solve it. If my partner said, "I need _______________. I'm asking for it because it is important to me and it will help keep our relationship running smoothly. What do you think?" That would make me do it because I care enough to want to do things right for the relationship even if those are not my needs.

Redbone hit the nail on the head. My husband and I have this issue. I never used to help him do his things (pack, organize something, proactively get something he's meaning to get) because he's very particular about how each of these tasks are done. I never would help him pack for his business trips because I didn't think I was contributing in any way (I'm a slow and messy packer). When he explained to me that even if I feel like I'm not contributing, it means a lot to HIM, then I got it. I'll join in on some project or task he's doing. I suppose me helping him organize something is like him giving me a deeply meant compliment. When I realize and remind myself of that, it's very easy to do.

 

[ExAstrisSpes]

Mostly she just kept smothering me in compliments and other such affectations until I figured I owed her to start myself. This approach is rather risky however. It could also quite quickly go the other way and lend him to start pushing you away if he is not comfortable with constantly being complimented.

It's a fine line, this verbally affectionate business. Every time he does something nice or good to me I try to thank him, and if I like something he's wearing I'll tell him it looks good on him. He does get uncomfortable sometimes when I'm too verbally affectionate though. He's been getting more complimentary the longer we are together, so maybe it's just something that he needs to warm up to.

Has he ever said how he feels at all? For myself, once I state how I feel, then that's how it is until I say otherwise. It took me a while to realize that some people want to hear how you feel even if you've said it before. From my POV, it was redundant and silly (I'm with you, how could I not have feelings for you?) and I didn't want that. I think that if I were in a relationship now the thing that would make me be open about how I felt or expressing it would be the level of safety and trust I felt in the relationship.

If it is also presented to me as a problem, I'd want to solve it. If my partner said, "I need _______________. I'm asking for it because it is important to me and it will help keep our relationship running smoothly. What do you think?" That would make me do it because I care enough to want to do things right for the relationship even if those are not my needs.

He's never told me how he feels towards me. He's said that he likes me or really likes me in the past, but he's never said that he has feelings or cares for me. I intuit that he cares and has feelings, because of how he treats me and sometimes with the language he uses. He's surprised me several times recently with calling me or e-mailing me out of the blue. He invited me to go to San Diego with him next weekend to visit some friends he'd "love for me to meet", which is not typically the kind of language he uses with me.

I think I would just gently ask, if you want to know if he has feelings for you. It could be, as others have said, that he's just shy about expressing them or shows his feelings in other ways. Or it could be that he's not there yet, but likes you enough to stick around and see where it goes.

Also, he might not be able to pinpoint exactly how he feels, and is reserving commitment until he knows for sure.

This is one of the reasons why I've been trying to be patient, because I know it takes time for him to figure these things out. All of the "right" behavior is there, but I don't know if he's gotten comfortable with acknowledging it to himself or to me.

I'm also thinking that even though my asking for this or bringing it up would be uncomfortable/awkward to me (and probably kind of rude to another NF), he wouldn't view it the same way.

 

[INTPness]

Once I'm sure of my own feelings, I'll pretty much say these things daily to you - and I'll be very comfortable saying them. It's that first 6 months or a year (each relationship is different) where I'm sorting things out in my head and figuring out how I actually do feel that can take some time. And it truly isn't something that can be forced or rushed at all. OP, you are absolutely right in wanting to let him say it on his own, rather than to try to squeeze it out of him. It's OK to voice your needs to him (for verbal affirmation), but then just be ready for the truth. Or, if he's still sorting through things himself, he might give you something vague like, "I think you're a special person", or "I really enjoy our time together", "I like the direction this is headed." Those things just mean, "It's going good, let's continue what we're doing, and see where it goes, see what develops."

To a "J", this might sound strange, but we P's are pretty random. And I've had it happen in the past where I've never really given it a lot of thought - I haven't sat down and thought, "Do I love this person? Am I falling in love?" But, what will happen, is one night we might be at dinner and I might just say it. Like everything we've been through as a couple, all of our experiences together, all of our long talks, fun times, the loyalty and dedication that I may have seen from her, certain things she may have said that really impressed me (I remember one g/f who had a good friend who criticized me for not going and partying all the time, and my g/f completely stuck up for me - she "opened a can" on her friend and the friend never criticized me again - that was on the phone and I overheard it - it just kind of let me know that this girl was really invested and she'd stand behind me and go to bat for me when necesseary), just little things like this add up and culminate over time and then one day, I just know that I have a deep love for the person. And once that happens, it becomes very, very easy for me to say it. But, you're not going to hear it until I know it. I've said it "too early" before - just not a good situation. Let it come to him naturally.

 

[Redbone]

He's never told me how he feels towards me. He's said that he likes me or really likes me in the past, but he's never said that he has feelings or cares for me. I intuit that he cares and has feelings, because of how he treats me and sometimes with the language he uses. He's surprised me several times recently with calling me or e-mailing me out of the blue. He invited me to go to San Diego with him next weekend to visit some friends he'd "love for me to meet", which is not typically the kind of language he uses with me.

*perks up* Invited you to meet some friends of his? Now that is a big deal! I cannot think of any man that will introduce someone he is seeing to his friends unless he really cares about that person. Especially since we tend to compartmentalize our relationships, too (well, I do at any rate).

That sounds awesome...I hope you're going?

 

[ExAstrisSpes]

It's that first 6 months or a year (each relationship is different) where I'm sorting things out in my head and figuring out how I actually do feel that can take some time. And it truly isn't something that can be forced or rushed at all. OP, you are absolutely right in wanting to let him say it on his own, rather than to try to squeeze it out of him.

.......

To a "J", this might sound strange, but we P's are pretty random. And I've had it happen in the past where I've never really given it a lot of thought - I haven't sat down and thought, "Do I love this person? Am I falling in love?" But, what will happen, is one night we might be at dinner and I might just say it.

It's interesting to read this. I'm definitely not the type to "force" things, or at least I don't see myself that way. I may inadvertently apply pressure, but it's not something I actively do or want to do. We haven't been dating long at all (almost 5 months). I actually go back and forth on bringing up this need to him, because I'll dwell on it a few days and then usually he'll do something surprising that will reaffirm my intuition about him, which then makes me feel like that verbal need isn't necessary for the time being.

*perks up* Invited you to meet some friends of his? Now that is a big deal! I cannot think of any man that will introduce someone he is seeing to his friends unless he really cares about that person. Especially since we tend to compartmentalize our relationships, too (well, I do at any rate).

That sounds awesome...I hope you're going?

I've met and hung out with both of the groups of friends he regularly hangs out with, but this was the first time he talked people up to me and said, "You'd like them" and "I'd love for you to come meet these friends". I am going.

 

[rav3n]

It took me a month to be able to tell my current girlfriend that I thought she was pretty

Ha...first INTP ex took 3 years post break up to tell me I was beautiful (not that I am but it was too funny to hear it years later).

 

[xisnotx]

Me: "I have feelings for you/I care for you"
Him: "I know - it shows because of X, Y, Z"

I've had this conversation. The very fact that he knows you have feelings for him and he is still engaging you indicates that he has feelings for you. Also, the fact that he has taken the time to analyze your behavior towards him and is still interacting with you means he has feelings for you. (or at least it would for me).
Still, if you would like verbal confirmation you should ask for it. Just tell him that you would be very interested in knowing what he thinks of you. Tell him to take some time to get his thoughts together. Allow him to write it down if he wants to.

If he does tell you. Don't make it a big a deal. That just makes things uncomfortable.

 

[rav3n]

If he has deep discussions with you about his interests where he respects your opinion and is willing to explain things you don't understand without any form of impatience, he cares. If you consider how INTPs value their headspace time, when they're willing to give up large chunks of their alone time to be with you and aren't pushing you away, clawing for space, they, really, really care.

 

[ExAstrisSpes]

Ha...first INTP ex took 3 years post break up to tell me I was beautiful (not that I am but it was too funny to hear it years later).

I've had this conversation. The very fact that he knows you have feelings for him and he is still engaging you indicates that he has feelings for you. Also, the fact that he has taken the time to analyze your behavior towards him and is still interacting with you means he has feelings for you. (or at least it would for me).
Still, if you would like verbal confirmation you should ask for it. Just tell him that you would be very interested in knowing what he thinks of you. Tell him to take some time to get his thoughts together. Allow him to write it down if he wants to.

If he does tell you. Don't make it a big a deal. That just makes things uncomfortable.

These are good points. I keep putting the conversation off because he's been actively doing things to get us closer, completely without my prodding. Some days it still bugs me though, and eventually I think I will ask him.

If he has deep discussions with you about his interests where he respects your opinion and is willing to explain things you don't understand without any form of impatience, he cares. If you consider how INTPs value their headspace time, when they're willing to give up large chunks of their alone time to be with you and aren't pushing you away, clawing for space, they, really, really care.

He does respect my opinion and insight, although I can't say we've had deep discussions. I've recently started to ask him to tell me random stories, and I've certainly felt closer to him and like I understand him better since we've had those conversations. He does let me know some of his theories, but I still feel in this regard he hasn't opened up to me very much. Recently he's shown more interest in teaching me one of his hobbies (which I've expressed interest in learning), so I hope to see him in his element for that.

We both got really excited when we played chess together one night and realized we were *very* closely matched. As in, throughout the game we had pretty much the same pieces on the board, and when he finally checkmated me, I was one move away from checkmating him. I think since then we've both realized that not only do we get along well, but also we're well-matched intellectually. Until then I always thought he was much more smart than myself.

It does surprise me when he wants to spend large chunks of time with me, and to be honest it delights me. I've gotten used to it but sometimes when he withdraws it's sudden and confusing. I usually just assume he needs his head space and he'll come back around when he's ready to be social again. I've told him in the past that it's OK for him to have his alone time and space, and that I don't want to crowd him. I rarely ask him out or call and let him come to me when he wants to be social.

 

[wildcat]

Often, INTPs are far, far more expression through action/deed/continued cohabitation rather than verbal. Verbal is very tough, because often they cannot verbalize feelings without feeling absurd.

That doesn't let him off the hook though. You need to make it clear that you need some kind of verbal affirmation in order to feel loved and know where you stand. Most likely, expressing that you need verbal affirmation because you like to have an accurate picture of the status of the relationship will make it easier for him to understand, and less likely to make him feel like he's being pressured by what he assumes to be your insecurities.

Expression will always be hard for INTPs, and NTs in general, really. Usually biggest thing to work on when dating other types.

He can write the affirmation down, on a piece of carboard, and she can attach it somewhere (fridge door?).
He can put an X under the affirmation every day, to show it is valid.