[INTP] INTP development based on race, social status, and family

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

INTPs are not affected by their upbringing. No matter where they come from or what race, religion or culture, we all look exactly like this.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Oh, but with more zits.

 

[lets eat pie]

Agree with the zits. But he dresses too neatly. And really, who has time to comb and gel their hair with such a stylish center part?

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Agree with the zits. But he dresses too neatly. And really, who has time to comb and gel their hair with such a stylish center part?

True. I guess that's what we look like once you put us through the wash.

 

[Risen]

Oh, but with more zits.

Black people are much less prone to getting bad acne, and the fact that out culture is so unacceptable of geeky nerdiness means the number of visibly geeky/nerdy types proportionately lower. I've never seen a Steve Urkel among us.

 

[lets eat pie]

...and the fact that out culture is so unacceptable of geeky nerdiness means the number of visibly geeky/nerdy types proportionately lower. I've never seen a Steve Urkel among us.

I think that's precisely the topic of this thread: of people having to blend in with their social environment even if it goes against their nature.

 

[proteanmix]

I think that's precisely the topic of this thread: of people having to blend in with their social environment even if it goes against their nature.

I think it's a little bit more nuanced than that. I just randomly googled "high school cliques" and this is a list I got:

1. preps
2. goths
3. geeks
4. band geeks
5. book worms
6. math geeks
7. nerds
8. punks
9. skaters
10. drama people
11. choir people
12. "special" people
13. non-conformists
14. gangster-type people
15. tomboys
16. jocks
17. grade repeaters
18. cheerleaders

All these groups of people simply do not exist at a typical predominantly black high school. You'll always have athletes/jocks, attractive people, and criminals everywhere so those are staple. But the diversity of groups for you to "join" wasn't there, there was very little social stratification. Look at it like this, think of The Breakfast Club that had characters that represent common high school archetypes. I'm not saying these kinds of people didn't exist but they often not distinct and cohesive enough to represent an actual group, to become a clique.

So for example at my high school, if you wanted to be both black, goth, and listen to death metal, whatever else...that was almost unheard of. I saw and see black goths, but they tend to be in areas where I know the high schools are more mixed race. I was friend's with one black goth kid at my school and he withstood a lot, but he could fight and people left him alone by junior year. It's like you already stand out, but you stand out even more when you do that in a predominantly black environment.

The fact that that person can exist in a predominantly white high school and that character is popular enough to be recognized as a universal high school social group is a liberty and freedom of expression that is rare in a predominantly black environment. Even if they're fringe, even if they're an outsider, there's a niche that exists for them and the culture is elastic enough to support a group of people who identify. That's what made Steve Urkel so odd and remarkable, because you don't typically see a person like him represented.

Surprisingly though, my high school was very tolerant towards gay and transgendered teens. Outside of Atlanta, DC is a gay black mecca so I can understand why. I remember we had three F2M trans kids in my class alone. There was a definite gay clique that was immensely popular with everyone. I'm also noticing skateboarding is becoming immensely popular with black kids in my area, I see them all on the subway and hanging out in DC so I guess that's a change.

We did have an unofficial Baby Mama Club that was quite active. You had to be under 18, have at least two kids by different fathers and one of them had to be in jail. Stringent requirements indeed and yet membership grew every year!

 

[CzeCze]

LOL, someone mentioned Black Urkel. You know who I always thought had it rough? Black LARPers. You know, the ones who dress up for Renaissance Fair.

So much more I want to reply to in this thread but I keep rambling. So that's all for now.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Black people are much less prone to getting bad acne, and the fact that out culture is so unacceptable of geeky nerdiness means the number of visibly geeky/nerdy types proportionately lower. I've never seen a Steve Urkel among us.

'Twas a joke. Obviously not al INTPs are male either, or have eyesight problems.

 

[jadine]

I think it's a little bit more nuanced than that. I just randomly googled "high school cliques" and this is a list I got:

1. preps
2. goths
3. geeks
4. band geeks
5. book worms
6. math geeks
7. nerds
8. punks
9. skaters
10. drama people
11. choir people
12. "special" people
13. non-conformists
14. gangster-type people
15. tomboys
16. jocks
17. grade repeaters
18. cheerleaders

All these groups of people simply do not exist at a typical predominantly black high school. You'll always have athletes/jocks, attractive people, and criminals everywhere so those are staple. But the diversity of groups for you to "join" wasn't there, there was very little social stratification. Look at it like this, think of The Breakfast Club that had characters that represent common high school archetypes. I'm not saying these kinds of people didn't exist but they often not distinct and cohesive enough to represent an actual group, to become a clique.

So for example at my high school, if you wanted to be both black, goth, and listen to death metal, whatever else...that was almost unheard of. I saw and see black goths, but they tend to be in areas where I know the high schools are more mixed race. I was friend's with one black goth kid at my school and he withstood a lot, but he could fight and people left him alone by junior year. It's like you already stand out, but you stand out even more when you do that in a predominantly black environment.

The fact that that person can exist in a predominantly white high school and that character is popular enough to be recognized as a universal high school social group is a liberty and freedom of expression that is rare in a predominantly black environment. Even if they're fringe, even if they're an outsider, there's a niche that exists for them and the culture is elastic enough to support a group of people who identify. That's what made Steve Urkel so odd and remarkable, because you don't typically see a person like him represented.

Surprisingly though, my high school was very tolerant towards gay and transgendered teens. Outside of Atlanta, DC is a gay black mecca so I can understand why. I remember we had three F2M trans kids in my class alone. There was a definite gay clique that was immensely popular with everyone. I'm also noticing skateboarding is becoming immensely popular with black kids in my area, I see them all on the subway and hanging out in DC so I guess that's a change.

We did have an unofficial Baby Mama Club that was quite active. You had to be under 18, have at least two kids by different fathers and one of them had to be in jail. Stringent requirements indeed and yet membership grew every year!

This is my first time posting but I agree with this. I went to a predominantly white high school and they had all the cliques mentioned and then there was the black kids clique. It was difficult to choose between the black kids clique or those in the nerdier spectrum who I could relate to more. It got better as I got older and working in a tech field I do get to meet more black intp's (well i've met one). But when I was younger it was hard. I struggled to relate, black people do seem more SJ especially the girls who were hard on each other. I also think my SJ is more developed than it would have been because of my race.

 

[INTPness]

^You're the 2nd person who has mentioned that black people seem SJ. I'd be interested to hear why this might be the case. I'm probably wrong in drawing any conclusions, but a lot of the black friends I've had and those I've known seemed predominately SP. Very laid back, easy going, love to have fun, joke around, etc. I think the general population is fairly evenly split between SJ's and SP's, so maybe it's just a matter of not having met a lot of black people who are "N". And that happens with white people too - N's are a minority compared to S's - it's harder to find N friends because there just aren't as many of them.

 

[Eric B]

Laid back and easygoing could be Interaction Style, and then SP wouldn't be those things anyway.
But it is true that they are heavily SJ, and then the ones who are more the life of the party are likely SP.

 

[jadine]

^You're the 2nd person who has mentioned that black people seem SJ. I'd be interested to hear why this might be the case. I'm probably wrong in drawing any conclusions, but a lot of the black friends I've had and those I've known seemed predominately SP. Very laid back, easy going, love to have fun, joke around, etc. I think the general population is fairly evenly split between SJ's and SP's, so maybe it's just a matter of not having met a lot of black people who are "N". And that happens with white people too - N's are a minority compared to S's - it's harder to find N friends because there just aren't as many of them.

In high school and even now as an adult, I notice more pressure within the black community to dress, talk, and act a certain way. So many rules- even in places were it should just be fun and free like a dance club or a party. Also black people are more likely to be church goers and church in my opinion is an SJ institution. From my experience black churches are not even close to being as liberal as white churches.

 

[Red Herring]

That´s interesting. I have been wondering the same thing as INTPness, but your explanation sounds plausible (and probably true for a lot of ethnic minorities in similar situations?). I´m just a clueless European and belong to the majority in my country so these American social groupings are all a bit exotic for me.
Hmm, I wonder to which extend this could be applied to our largest minority - Turks. There is a lot of variety of course, but the behavioral expectations towards young Turks might often be quite similar. It is a mixture of cultural influences from the "old country" (which are sometimes overstressed to give a sense of belonging) and the consequences of living in the microcosm of predominantly Turkish neigborhoods, high unemployment, etc. This could very well lead to similar effects. I´d have to ask. But - ironically enough - I can only think of one Turk in my social circle, he´s a med student and therefor part of a doube minority.*sigh* Off the cuff I´d say SFJ for females and STP for males would be the stereotype.

 

[You]

^You're the 2nd person who has mentioned that black people seem SJ. I'd be interested to hear why this might be the case. I'm probably wrong in drawing any conclusions, but a lot of the black friends I've had and those I've known seemed predominately SP. Very laid back, easy going, love to have fun, joke around, etc. I think the general population is fairly evenly split between SJ's and SP's, so maybe it's just a matter of not having met a lot of black people who are "N". And that happens with white people too - N's are a minority compared to S's - it's harder to find N friends because there just aren't as many of them.

Black culture is SJ. For the most part it's because its an extension, in association, but as well as in rebellion, to American culture. In most cases, I take nurture over nature in arguements, so the culture molds people to be more SJ. SPs are the laid back variety, but more often than not, its just an SJ world.

 

[INTPness]

Black culture is SJ. For the most part it's because its an extension, in association, but as well as in rebellion, to American culture. In most cases, I take nurture over nature in arguements, so the culture molds people to be more SJ. SPs are the laid back variety, but more often than not, its just an SJ world.

I understand everything in your post except the "rebellion part". If a minority group was "rebelling" against the larger society (whether conscious or not), why would they mirror the SJ behavior of that larger society?

Not arguing with you. Just trying to understand your post.

 

[Lucky_Rabbit]

^^^ i think its becuz they want to close themselves off from the majority, but still have some of their beliefs like religion. blacks belief in god but its in a much stricter closed off manner, they set their standards based on things in the bible like a white society but they base it off different scriptures or interpretations of the scripture they follow. I find most of white society to be more SP anyway unless it applies to the business world but thats more of a universal thing i think

 

[Eric B]

Actually, in my correlation of MBTI/Keirsey to the FIRO system, SJ does end up corresponding to the behavior group Dr. Leo Ryan called "the Rebel". FIRO is rather similar to Enneagram in various ways, including a more negative focus on behavior.
The Rebel (or Melancholy) has a low Wanted Control (corresponding to the SJ's "structure" focus), and thus depends on what's familiar to him (you can see here the Si perspective). If someone tries to force him into the unknown, he "rebels".

The low Expressed Control on one hand makes him more "cooperative" in not initiating a lot of self-imposed control over others, so rather than try to conquer the other side, it comes across as rebellion, to get them off his back. While Ryan named the type after this one trait, for the SJ, it was basically glossed over (since both MBTI and Keirsey focus on positive leadership traits).

I don't believe in nurture, so the SJ was just a natural strain that carried down in the Africans. Many of the more pragmatic SP's and especially NT's were probably killed off (in slavery times, big threat to the order), and those that were born later were probably just those that got into trouble, or in the case of the SP's, set the cultural patterns of being lively and into partying and dance. (Where the Caucasians probably had a lot more SP's and NT's, and hence were more geared to being able to amass power. The SJ's then just maintained it).

Hence, a more passive rebellion against society among the more downtrodden and yet maintaining their own culture (while those who "made it" in the system became more upholding of it).

 

[proteanmix]

Just for the record, I don't think most of black culture is SJ. Like I said, circumstances forced a diverse group of people to homogenize and lose their cultural distinctions and but also reform another. For the sake of survival, black people have had to stick together because of the amount of common problems and obstacles. There's had to be a wholeness because if you were fractured as a group you wouldn't have as much power. Of course black people are hugely influenced by larger society but then again influence is multi-directional.

I believe MBTI is a culturally insensitive instrument, so it's not surprising to me if most of mainstream culture is typed SJ then those same markers would be used in black culture to label SJ. If for example, being overly-religious is a marker of being SJ (valid or invalid, true or not) then most people would use that indicator to type someone as SJ. I know quite a few black intuitives that are very religious and I'm the heathen according to them.

I think MBTI does a lousy job of translating what functions are in different contexts. I don't think a black SFJ presents the same as a white SFJ. I just don't. I can tell when I'm in a group of black SFJs and when I'm in a group of white SFJs but the similarities between those groups are just majorly different. Frankly I do think black SFJs appear more SP than white SFJs. Same thing goes with sensing and intuition within black culture and white culture. White people tend to use level of weirdness, bizareness, and inattentiveness to surroundings as a measure, but I don't think that's an accurate measure in black culture.

 

[IZthe411]

OP, I'm an SJ, and I had some similar experiences- not with the physical thing, though.

I went to a predominantly white middle and high school- and was in the 'gifted' classes. I was one of the few blacks in the classes, and it was noticed by my classmates and family as well. I felt like I needed to downplay my abilities to people around me, as well as my tastes in music, friends, and all of that. Even today I still feel like I need to hold back for the fear of appearances of showing off.

I agree- the Black American culture has collective demands of everyone who lives among it, but some of that stems from how we ended up here in the States....we had to be strong, be unified, and all of that, otherwise we'd all suffer. So a sense of order was needed- and order is the strongsuit of an SJ. So that's how it happened.....

The more I think about it my drive to difference is molded based on experience more than anything else. If I took a different path, one that was more in line to those around me, I'm not sure how far I'd be away from what's typical. It might be inherent in an INTP to act in a way that appears quirky to the rest, but I don't know if I can say the same for my case.

It's funny, I was reading this thread, then dipped out to lunch. There's a 22 y.o. black dude on my team- he's ESTJ. I was running to get some sushi...asked him if he wanted in, and he was like 'nah'- because he didn't do raw fish. The same thing with steaks, too- I notice a lot of my black friends will do them well done as opposed to it being cooked any less. I'm the weird one in that case, even though I could be the same MBTI letters as some people at that table.