[NT] NT Women and Loss of Personhood

[Salomé]

Because the man would then have to exercise lordship and mastery over his woman. A modern man might be as fed up to the back teeth with being expected to compress himself into a timeworn stereotypical macho-male role as the modern woman is in submitting herself to it. In short, the man may want a partner, not a doormat-cum-housekeeper.

What is this "modern man" of which you speak?
He interethts me.... Have him scrubbed and sent to my tent.

 

[Fourplay]

I am sick of the laundry list of expectations in relationships.

I just want someone who can enjoy the moment truly. Who can laugh and find the absurdness of life amusing.

 

[Ism]

I worry about the fact that I act as a kind of 'harbor' for my boyfriend, sometimes.

Shit, dude. I can only take so many bad feels.

He feels safe enough come to me for his problems, which is awesome; but it has drawbacks, too. I don't want it to become the main appeal.

It can feel self-effacing, and it's kind of saddening, but that's because it's the only way I know how to approach people with their ordeals. I just need to work out a new game plan.


At the same time, I feel like this is more a natural consequence of being the more easy-going one, rather than being female. Still sucks.

 

[Fourplay]

I worry about the fact that I act as a kind of 'harbor' for my boyfriend, sometimes.

Shit, dude. I can only take so many bad feels.

He feels safe enough come to me for his problems, which is awesome; but it has drawbacks, too. I don't want it to become the main appeal.

It can feel self-effacing, and it's kind of saddening, but that's because it's the only way I know how to approach people with their ordeals. I just need to work out a new game plan.


At the same time, I feel like this is more a natural consequence of being the more easy-going one, rather than being female. Still sucks.

If your natural instinct is to help and you change that watch for the shit storm to happen. I understand you're trying to say its not the only thing, but my inclination is that you're going for a makeover.

Just be happy he comes to you with problems. That's a big investment I'd give any woman worthwhile.

 

[Ism]

If your natural instinct is to help and you change that watch for the shit storm to happen. I understand you're trying to say its not the only thing, but my inclination is that you're going for a makeover.

Just be happy he comes to you with problems. That's a big investment I'd give any woman worthwhile.

I am happy he trusts me enough. Don't think I'm not.

My plan isn't to shut down my 'free hugs here' enterprise, but it can be a bit heavy for other reasons, so I'm going to talk with him and try and work out a fairer balance between the two of us. The consequences of that, however, aren't too favorable, so I think I'm also going to shoot for indulging more of my problems with him as well. Drawing back isn't the only option, so maybe I can feel better by requesting similar services from him - within reason, and with things I'm genuinely concerned about.

Anyways, I brought it up because I was worried after reading the OP. I know I won't, but I want to guard myself as much as possible from the possibility of becoming supplementary to anyone's wants or needs.

 

[Fourplay]

I am happy he trusts me enough. Don't think I'm not.

My plan isn't to shut down my 'free hugs here' enterprise, but it can be a bit heavy for other reasons, so I'm going to talk with him and try and work out a fairer balance between the two of us. The consequences of that, however, aren't too favorable, so I think I'm also going to shoot for indulging more of my problems with him as well. Drawing back isn't the only option, so maybe I can feel better by requesting similar services from him - within reason, and with things I'm genuinely concerned about.

Anyways, I brought it up because I was worried after reading the OP. I know I won't, but I want to guard myself as much as possible from the possibility of becoming supplementary to anyone's wants or needs.

This sounds like an utter recipe for disaster when you are trying to guard yourself in a relationship. Why be in such a relationship anyways? Would you hire someone to be part of your enterprise that embezzles? Or you have a sneaking suspicion of? Check and balance type of relationships are uninspired, but you to each his own.

 

[rav3n]

This sounds like an utter recipe for disaster when you are trying to guard yourself in a relationship. Why be in such a relationship anyways? Would you hire someone to be part of your enterprise that embezzles? Or you have a sneaking suspicion of? Check and balance type of relationships are uninspired, but you to each his own.

Aren't you the member in this thread who declared he was sick of relationship expectations? If so, why would you try to guilt Ism into bowing to her partner when she has concerns that she's clearly expressed? If you missed it, he takes more than he gives in support, where she feels she needs more from him.

 

[Fourplay]

Aren't you the member in this thread who declared he was sick of relationship expectations? If so, why would you try to guilt Ism into bowing to her partner when she has concerns that she's clearly expressed? If you missed it, he takes more than he gives in support, where she feels she needs more from him.

How does being sick of relationship expectations nullify what I just said? She didn't say he expected advice, just his reactionary behaviour is to come to her for problems. Like I said, to each his own, but maybe you don't understand playing it "safe" and "guarded" sounds the oppositional to love.

 

[Fourplay]

Aren't you the member in this thread who declared he was sick of relationship expectations? If so, why would you try to guilt Ism into bowing to her partner when she has concerns that she's clearly expressed? If you missed it, he takes more than he gives in support, where she feels she needs more from him.

How does being sick of relationship expectations nullify what I just said? She didn't say he expected advice, just his reactionary behaviour is to come to her for problems. Like I said, to each his own, but maybe you don't understand playing it "safe" and "guarded" sounds oppositional to love.

 

[rav3n]

so I think I'm also going to shoot for indulging more of my problems with him as well. Drawing back isn't the only option, so maybe I can feel better by requesting similar services from him - within reason, and with things I'm genuinely concerned about.

How does being sick of relationship expectations nullify what I just said? She didn't say he expected advice, just his reactionary behaviour is to come to her for problems. Like I said, to each his own, but maybe you don't understand playing it "safe" and "guarded" sounds oppositional to love.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting her post but the above excerpt is quite telling. Read it again and tell me if it translates to: Ism hasn't been relying very much on her partner for emotional support. In realising how much he relies on her, she's decided to rely on him more.

 

[Fourplay]

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting her post but the above excerpt is quite telling. Read it again and tell me if it translates to: Ism hasn't been relying very much on her partner for emotional support. In realising how much he relies on her, she's decided to rely on him more.

No, I didn't read that part.

Thank you for that.

 

[Salomé]

I worry about the fact that I act as a kind of 'harbor' for my boyfriend, sometimes.

Shit, dude. I can only take so many bad feels.

He feels safe enough come to me for his problems, which is awesome; but it has drawbacks, too. I don't want it to become the main appeal.

It can feel self-effacing, and it's kind of saddening, but that's because it's the only way I know how to approach people with their ordeals. I just need to work out a new game plan.


At the same time, I feel like this is more a natural consequence of being the more easy-going one, rather than being female. Still sucks.

I know what you are talking about. Part of the problem of being a "strong", independent woman (that adjective is often used to describe NT women) is that you inevitably attract weak men.

I attract all sorts of waifs and strays and very, very needy people. I don't want to be needed (in that way) any more than I want to be needy.


Edit. Side-note. I've noticed even animals see me as the "alpha" in any given situation. Like other people's dogs will submit to me and follow me over their owners. I don't even like dogs very much! It's really weird. I hate being followed but always attract followers.

 

[Ism]

Let me clear a few things up.

This sounds like an utter recipe for disaster when you are trying to guard yourself in a relationship. Why be in such a relationship anyways? Would you hire someone to be part of your enterprise that embezzles? Or you have a sneaking suspicion of? Check and balance type of relationships are uninspired, but you to each his own.

I'm not trying to 'guard myself' from anything except potential future situations in which I made the mistake of letting things getting out of control. I have no desire to guard myself from anything I think he could do, because I trust him enough to know that he would never, intentionally or not, demand that I play second fiddle. You are misinterpreting my statements.

I expected, with such strong claims, that you would at least read my full post before shutting me down. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Thankfully, andante stepped in and cleared things up.


To the above:

I can't expect you guys to know the nitty-gritty details, so I'll say this: He's not weak, and is probably one of the strongest human beings I know. He's very honorable and selects who he choses to trust very, very carefully. Because of his past, he keeps a lot in. Former attempts to reach out have been met with little progress. Combined with the fact that I love him and want to be there for him, and that I have a lot of pride and dislike admitting that sometimes it's just too much, it's gotten to be uncomfortable for me.

He's expressed in the past that he worries about how much he turns to me, but I hand-waved it away - irresponsibly so.

Truthfully, given my situation, I don't think my posts were really relevant to the original point of discussion - that, as an NT female, I've been forced into a secondary position as helper and healer for my partner as an expectation set upon me by society.

What I do think happened was that I didn't have a solution, I felt confused and uncertain, and I incorrectly applied the reasoning that I was being under-appreciated. It was a reasoning that could have made sense, as a solution to an ambiguous fear I had about my role in my relationship.

I certainly don't think that it is any less a legitimate concern than it was as I initially presented it. I do, however, think it is one that does not apply.

That being said, I apologize to Salome if she was not implying that my boyfriend was being weak. I just wanted to be clear for any other readers out there who felt curious enough to read through my posts.

I hate being followed but always attract followers.

Typical, lol. That reminds me of when my mom told me that some men love to prey on successful women to get their own and take her down with him. I think this holds true for both genders, though.

 

[Evo]

I know what you are talking about. Part of the problem of being a "strong", independent woman (that adjective is often used to describe NT women) is that you inevitably attract weak men.

agreed.

This is why I often get labelled a dick by some women. I'm just as hard with them as I am with man in social interaction. I like to incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers too, fend for themselves and take bullshit from no one.

On the other hand, I hate nothing more than a feminist. I hate revenge mentality.

I have an isfj friend that does this too, I actually love it and totally understand why you do it, and where you're coming from.
and i also hate revenge mentality, but im sure this goes without saying that not all feminists have that mentality.

 

[Hildur]

I know what you are talking about. Part of the problem of being a "strong", independent woman (that adjective is often used to describe NT women) is that you inevitably attract weak men.

God, yes. My husband since 16 years fits that description. Not emotionally needy, but he always starts on various (building/renovating, mostly) projects without finishing them (he's ISTP with a strong emphasis on the P). Often he's so focused on some detail in the start of the project he hasn't even thought about if the project can be completed. So I'm left to finish all his projects, or find some temporary halfway solution - because otherwise I have to live in the unfinished rubble...! And heck - I'm P too, finishing projects is what I hate the most! It would be enough if I was forced to finish my own projects, right? Some bystander explained it by saying he's the youngest son in his family, and I'm the oldest kid in mine...? If so, I hate being his big sister.

As to all of the traditional expectations on mothers and wives, I sort of skipped those. My house always needed a couple of days cleaning before we could accept guests, my daughters learned to cook and to wash their own clothes at an early age - just to "survive"... Currently I'm just waiting for my youngest daughter to leave home, then I will too. I hate this big, old house and this huge farm garden and all the outhouses. There's always something that needs mending/maintenance, and my husband sucks at it (not on actually doing it - but on seeing that it needs to be done, and if I nag on him he will definitely not do it, out of pure spite). I'm moving into a "Tiny House" next, and have already started getting rid of as many belongings as I can to scale down.

 

[Society]

i think there are a lot of practical reasons for why this is happening that one needs to note before judging it:

with the rising costs of childcare & decreasing overall wages (relatively to inflation), it is a sad reality that a parent within an average wage range will often save more money as a stay at home parent then they could earn within a given timeframe. extra time beyond that can further save money with a DIY, ranging from cooking your own meals, maintaining your own house, crafting or hunting cheap deals for your own household needs, and even an increasing rise of vertical wall gardens with vegtables and spices, not to mention the art of coupons.

alternatively this can be split with both parents working part time, but lost employe benefits and a decreasing chance of advancement makes this unprofitable for the household as a whole.

why does it often end up being women?
i think more often then not its a matter of innertia, getting a stable job with paid meternity leave is quite difficult, getting your job back after a months of unemployment isn't always easy, so often the mother already is a stay at home parent, and in this economical times, it is just safer to keep the job.
another element is that women make on average less. the reason is quite reversed - for corporations women actually cost more, because the more women they hire, their company's legal insurance assestment is going to come up a more expansive deals, for no other reason then statistics, and the company that pays for the difference is going to pay it out of your wage. why? because another woman sued her company for sexual harrassment, because another women sued for not getting a maternity leave, because another women did crap that has nothing to do with you, but now your taking slack for it. the result is that if your not sure if you have enough money for bread next month, then those extra few cents on the dollars are worth a lot.


there are exceptions:
a woman can have a higher education then the men she's with, but since women tend to go for men of at least the same level of education and income level then they have, this is rare.
a man can immigrate for a woman, often a long process, and this happens more with the internet, but since men are a lot more likely to marry a second time (to younger yet to have married women) then women, more often then not the men will be the one with kids, and since younger women often marry older men, more often then not the man will have more job security then the woman, and the woman wil be the one immigrating for the man.

is this what i would go for? not IF i can avoid it.
my reasoning? ow feminism modern time and ideological blablabla bla blabla? nope, none of that. the simple fact is that if i started a family there's a good chance it would include a daughter, and if it includes a daughter i would like her to have a good role model that would incourage her own sense of independence, i can trust myself to always be there for my children, but not my far future son-in-law's. i also don't think its healthy for one person to be so much at the mercy of their partners, i know it wasn't for me when i was a stay at home dad, it wasn't only bad for me but it was bad for the relationship as a whole and thus for her, and i don't think it would be any less bad the other way around. there's a realistic dependency, there's a loss of esteem, there's decreased socialization oppertunities, and none of those are good for anyone, not for the provider, not for the stay at home parent, and not for any future daughters who might see that lifestyle as their role model. but here's a key difference: i grow up in a family much more wealthy then i have being so far on my own, and with a rich boy's mentality, that most people can't afford, and while i am studying so i will be able too, its entirely possible it wont be the case forever.

at this point in time, the solution for this isn't a cultural revolution, its a better economy.

 

[Working On It]

I find this topic interesting as a traditional woman married to a traditional man. I have never lost my personhood, nor has my husband ever expected me to compromise it. There is a worldview of traditional marriage that was formed in the 60's that may have been the case for some, but wasn't true for many. Both my husband and I have roles within our marriage to keep our lives running smoothly, but they are no different than the responsibility to brush one's teeth. After those responsibilities are completed, usually by 9AM for me, the rest of my days are free to explore whatever interests me. I don't mind my responsibilities just like my husband doesn't mind his.

If a woman loses her personhood it is because she believes this will get her something she doesn't think she can otherwise have. The question I would ask is "What does she want more than herself?" Many of you said security, but I would say more like control through guilt.

 

[Pseudo]

I find this topic interesting as a traditional woman married to a traditional man. I have never lost my personhood, nor has my husband ever expected me to compromise it. There is a worldview of traditional marriage that was formed in the 60's that may have been the case for some, but wasn't true for many. Both my husband and I have roles within our marriage to keep our lives running smoothly, but they are no different than the responsibility to brush one's teeth. After those responsibilities are completed, usually by 9AM for me, the rest of my days are free to explore whatever interests me. I don't mind my responsibilities just like my husband doesn't mind his.

If a woman loses her personhood it is because she believes this will get her something she doesn't think she can otherwise have. The question I would ask is "What does she want more than herself?" Many of you said security, but I would say more like control through guilt.

traditional woman?

 

[Pseudo]

I find this topic interesting as a traditional woman married to a traditional man. I have never lost my personhood, nor has my husband ever expected me to compromise it. There is a worldview of traditional marriage that was formed in the 60's that may have been the case for some, but wasn't true for many. Both my husband and I have roles within our marriage to keep our lives running smoothly, but they are no different than the responsibility to brush one's teeth. After those responsibilities are completed, usually by 9AM for me, the rest of my days are free to explore whatever interests me. I don't mind my responsibilities just like my husband doesn't mind his.

If a woman loses her personhood it is because she believes this will get her something she doesn't think she can otherwise have. The question I would ask is "What does she want more than herself?" Many of you said security, but I would say more like control through guilt.

traditional woman?

 

[Working On It]

traditional woman?

I don't understand your question. Traditional as in what I believed the OP stated, but without the lose of personhood or baggage of societal preconceived notions. I am a stay at home wife and mother.