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[NT] NT Women and Loss of Personhood

Totenkindly

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But I don't really see those expectations at all these days. If anything women who would naturally gravitate to a more "traditional" role are discouraged. Maybe it's different where you live (or in older generations).

US culture is weird, especially where religion is involved. There can be a lot of pressure in some geographical reasons to "support the family." We've even got a new buzzword -- "Mama Grizzly" -- being promoted nationwide in the current election season by the likes of women like Palin and O'Donnell to describe women who are progressive in some ways but at the core still very traditional, especially about the role of the mother.

Those are older women, though, still; women in their 20's? I'm not sure how they are viewing things. Gen Y and Z are different in how they approach life.
 

rav3n

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US culture is weird, especially where religion is involved. There can be a lot of pressure in some geographical reasons to "support the family." We've even got a new buzzword -- "Mama Grizzly" -- being promoted nationwide in the current election season by the likes of women like Palin and O'Donnell to describe women who are progressive in some ways but at the core still very traditional, especially about the role of the mother.

Those are older women, though, still; women in their 20's? I'm not sure how they are viewing things. Gen Y and Z are different in how they approach life.
The first Gen Zs would be barely 19, so there are probably not too many that have been impacted by traditionalism beyond experiences from parents, etc. While parental influence impacts a great deal, it's not from the same perspective that this thread is discussing.
 

Randomnity

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So, are you saying there aren't any women in the "younger" set that not only take care of house and home but also work outside of home? Seems to me that it's even worse in some ways, for the "enlightened" generation.
You have a point there...but your OP was about loss of personhood/independence, which is what I was thinking about. I think independence is very much encouraged in my generation. It's seen as a positive to have a stronge career, a social circle, and interests separate from your husband/bf.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not seen as a positive or even a norm for the woman to be doing all the chores, either. Although the balance probably does lean towards the woman more often, partially because I think more women overall are bothered by mess than men (huge stereotype and often wrong, yes I know).


US culture is weird, especially where religion is involved.
...
Those are older women, though, still; women in their 20's? I'm not sure how they are viewing things. Gen Y and Z are different in how they approach life.
Yeah. I'm very glad to live in an area not dominated overtly by religion. I'm not even all that sure what women in their 20s collectively think. I'm just guessing based on what I've seen in my peer group. Those kinds of traditional attitudes would definitely be frowned upon if anyone expressed them, which doesn't really happen. It's just assumed by everyone that everything is split equally most of the time.
 

rav3n

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Just had a crashing realisation of what this thread was all about, at least as it relates to me. Sometimes, putting fleeting thoughts into writing, can not only be cathartic but also, enlightening from free association.

This was a manifestation of my current commitment phobia. In hindsight, it was hypocritical of me to suggest that parental impact for Gen. Z wasn't applicable since within myself, that's exactly where it started. I will never become my mother, a consumed and pathetic woman.
 

Salomé

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Never said I was powerless. Only that I grit my teeth when I experience it.
Then what?

There was a whole generation of teeth-gritters in the 70s who barely achieved anything, other than the contempt of men and women alike.

I see women piss and moan and then pick right up where their mothers left off. I see them balk at social expectations and then cow-tow to them. I see them complain about the way men treat them and then pander to those very same men.

It's all just a game. You can chose to play by the rules, or you can choose to make your own rules and narrow your playing field considerably. At least you now have that choice.
 

Coriolis

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I dunno I know plenty of young guys who don't work who expect their mom or their stripper gf to support them, even if they have multiple children...but I'm guessing you don't know a lot of white trash people.

There are some stay-at-home dads, but lots of guys don't want to stay home, and statistics show that married mothers who work outside the home still bear the brunt of the responsibility for housework and childcare, even if they work the same number of hours as their husband.

So I'm not entirely sure what you're gritting your teeth about.
It is always a disappointment to see how, "in this day and age" the underlying mentality is still the same for many people. Yes, there are more exceptions: more stay-at-home dads, more couples that are truly equal partners in both breadwinning and child-rearing. And there have always been men who expect some woman to support them. Most people I know, however, would consider such a man lazy, while a woman still living with parents, or supported by husband/bf is more likely to be viewed as exercising an acceptable option. Outward behaviors have changed more than internal assumptions an expectations.
 

rav3n

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Then what?

There was a whole generation of teeth-gritters in the 70s who barely achieved anything, other than the contempt of men and women alike.

I see women piss and moan and then pick right up where their mothers left off. I see them balk at social expectations and then cow-tow to them. I see them complain about the way men treat them and then pander to those very same men.

It's all just a game. You can chose to play by the rules, or you can choose to make your own rules and narrow your playing field considerably. At least you now have that choice.
At present, I choose not to play, preferring freedom. After I've resolved this within myself, I will play it my way.
 

Coriolis

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There was a whole generation of teeth-gritters in the 70s who barely achieved anything, other than the contempt of men and women alike.

I see women piss and moan and then pick right up where their mothers left off. I see them balk at social expectations and then cow-tow to them. I see them complain about the way men treat them and then pander to those very same men.

It's all just a game. You can chose to play by the rules, or you can choose to make your own rules and narrow your playing field considerably. At least you now have that choice.
Absolutely. I stop at gritting my teeth when I observe the highlighted, only because I do not see it as up to me to tell someone else how to lead their life. In my own life, both my partner and I do exactly as you describe. We make our own rules and live out our own values. This has not narrowed the playing field; quite the opposite. It has broadened our horizons, and shown us that the real constraints we are facing are far less restrictive than what most people realize. Now and then, someone else is inspired by our example to question the unwritten rules and assumptions, and to make opportunities for themselves that they previously never considered.
 

Salomé

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In my own life, both my partner and I do exactly as you describe. We make our own rules and live out our own values. This has not narrowed the playing field; quite the opposite. It has broadened our horizons, and shown us that the real constraints we are facing are far less restrictive than what most people realize. Now and then, someone else is inspired by our example to question the unwritten rules and assumptions, and to make opportunities for themselves that they previously never considered.
When I said "narrow the playing field" I meant narrow your options in terms of prospective partners. Which it will inevitably do. Why would a man choose a woman who doesn't see him as her lord and master / reason for being over one who does - when such women are seemingly plentiful?
However, you only have to find that one individual who sees things as you do. Then the teeth-gritting stops. :)
 

Coriolis

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Ahh, I was considering that you might mean our attitude puts us out of step with most folks, so we will have fewer friends. Perhaps so, but as introverts, we don't really care, and neither of us would dream of trying to be "lord and master" to the other. As for narrowing the field of prospective partners, that, too had its advantages. I never had to waste much effort fending off unwanted attention. You are right about needing only one compatible person, but as a teenager that felt like looking for a needle in a haystack. In the end, though, my own magnetic personality attracted the right one.
 

Hera

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I feel the same. So much, in fact, that if I sat here to rant about it I'd get annoyed about bringing it up.
 
S

sammy

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There are aspects of traditionalism whereby the woman is consumed in a relationship. Her role becomes supporting, an extension of the man and their respective progeny. Her personhood is lost. She becomes a martyr for everyone else, an object with practical applications. What have you done for me lately?

It's one thing to want to give and take within a relationship and another through societal perceptions to be expected to be the little woman. Coerced loss of being and freedom.

Don't traditional men realise how egocentric they are?

All of this triggers walls within me. It's teeth gritting when I perceive it, particularly when my personal boundaries are being pushed against or attempts are made to erode those boundaries.

Do other women feel this way?

I recently had a conversation with my mom about this. She explained that a woman moves for the man if he's worth it in every other way, even if the girl gives up a lot to make it work. I can't say I agree with her, but it is practical to expect at least one person in a relationship to be willing to move or endure more changes than the other, if required (and depending on the situation).

It secretly drives me mad, but I know my need for human companionship trumps principles in special circumstances.
 

kafkacat

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hmmm i don't want to be crude, because my partner is an Ss, but yeah they seem so uniformed about these issues. My partner, i have to say, even tho he may not admit to it, but he's a hardcore traditionalist, and usually takes the control when we spend time together, but really it's the illusion of control i give him. Really i do my own thing and occasionally don't care to admit that he is right in this situation or another, I occasionally listen, and occasionally tune him out. I'd go nuts if i took his thinking to heart. I accept that we have different value systems and different ways of communicating and feel he is a good apple. I'm really after the communal expression of joy and peace between us, so if i get that it's all good. I really don't feel i'm sacrificing anything. And i kinda like the tradiationalist approach, and maybe alot of feminists would disagree with my choice, but to me it's valuable.
 

Mike5609

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Just had a crashing realisation of what this thread was all about, at least as it relates to me. In hindsight, it was hypocritical of me to suggest that parental impact for Gen. Z wasn't applicable since within myself, that's exactly where it started. Sometimes, putting fleeting thoughts into writing, can not only be cathartic but also, enlightening from free association.

Very true.

I will never become my mother, a consumed and pathetic woman.

CG. Jung, "Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype" (Collected Works 9) at (eg) http://www.jungny.com/lexicon.jungian.therapy.analysis/carl.jung.124.html "....where there is an overwhelming resistance to the mother and all she stands for ... is the supreme example of the negative mother-complex. The motto of this type is: Anything, so long as it is not like Mother! "

You may not become her. But are you actually any more free by reacting against her than by compliantly stepping into the role-model template that she exemplifies?

This was a manifestation of my current commitment phobia. .

". . . All instinctive processes [may] meet with unexpected difficulties; either sexuality does not function properly, or the children are unwanted, or maternal duties seem unbearable, or the demands of marital life are responded to with impatience and irritation. Such a woman often excels in Logos activities, where her mother has no place. If she can overcome her merely reactive attitude toward reality, she may later in life come to a deeper appreciation of her femininity."

When I said "narrow the playing field" I meant narrow your options in terms of prospective partners ... ... Why would a man choose a woman who doesn't see him as her lord and master/ reason for being over one who does

Beacuse the man would then have to exercise lordship and mastery over his woman. A modern man might be as fed up to the back teeth with being expected to compress himself into a timeworn stereotypical macho-male role as the modern woman is in submitting herself to it. In short, the man may want a partner, not a doormat-cum-housekeeper.
 

Wolfie

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CG. Jung, "Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype" (Collected Works 9) at (eg) http://www.jungny.com/lexicon.jungian.therapy.analysis/carl.jung.124.html "....where there is an overwhelming resistance to the mother and all she stands for ... is the supreme example of the negative mother-complex. The motto of this type is: Anything, so long as it is not like Mother! "

You may not become her. But are you actually any more free by reacting against her than by compliantly stepping into the role-model template that she exemplifies?
"

THIS :mellow:
 
W

WhoCares

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It's one thing to want to give and take within a relationship and another through societal perceptions to be expected to be the little woman. Coerced loss of being and freedom.

All of this triggers walls within me. It's teeth gritting when I perceive it, particularly when my personal
boundaries are being pushed against or attempts are made to erode those boundaries.

Do other women feel this way?

I dont rail against otoutwardly no. But then I've not been much of an object of desire
anyway so the position of needing to be someones 'woman' has never been one I've confronted much. I abhor societal pressures on both genders, but I am eccentric enough that few really expect me to fall into line with them. There is a certain freedom in others finding you strange, they excuse you from the norms of life as long as you dont break the law. The other edge to that sword is that they also shun you. But hey, whatever works for you.

My mother spent her entire life railing against the position her father expected her to hold. 10yrs after he went to he grave she is still collecting academic qualificatiins in an effort to prove him wrong. Her dogged railing against trapped her more thoroughly than any of her marriages. She could divorce a husband but cant escape the fear of being deemed useless beyond motherhood.
 

gromit

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If you met someone domineering who really did it for you, would you bend or move on to find an equal partner?

I very much value my autonomy. I am not going near anyone who is taking that away from me! If I bend too much it would make me tremendously unhappy, I found myself in a relationship in my early 20s where I was bending wayyyy too much for the other person. Since then have worked on self respect and other things so I will not find myself again in such a situation. I think I also see this type of pattern in my mom in different scenarios. Not that my dad is domineering, just that my mom never seems to stand up for herself or say the things she wants, so a lot of the time he just has no clue, and she doesn't know how to act to make things different (or doesn't have the willpower? I dont know).


And WAHHHH I just found out you are former Jenaphor!!
 

rav3n

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I very much value my autonomy. I am not going near anyone who is taking that away from me! If I bend too much it would make me tremendously unhappy, I found myself in a relationship in my early 20s where I was bending wayyyy too much for the other person. Since then have worked on self respect and other things so I will not find myself again in such a situation. I think I also see this type of pattern in my mom in different scenarios. Not that my dad is domineering, just that my mom never seems to stand up for herself or say the things she wants, so a lot of the time he just has no clue, and she doesn't know how to act to make things different (or doesn't have the willpower? I dont know).


And WAHHHH I just found out you are former Jenaphor!!
This is what I've found most awesome. Watching the behaviour between parents. It's great insight into self.

As at now, happy to be myself. I've had the marriage, had a child who's now parked in a college dorm far away, been in multiple relationships and are within a year of retiring. So now, my focus is on self-actualisation by tapping into knowledge of interest and also, attempting to tap into the more creative aspects of living. Dating and relationships are bottom rung compared to the rest of this!
 
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