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[INTP] INTP and low self-esteem

yenom

Alexander the Terrible
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,755
I mean its pretty bleak pointing this out, but most INTPs I met are brilliant people. Why do they have such low self-esteem? Why do they believe other types are superior to them and they have no distinct advantage as a type?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
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50,192
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sx/sp
I would not say that it's because "other type are superior," because in many ways INTP assumes that its rational process is superior to other methods of thinking/decision-making, and also often views itself as "smarter than others" and takes pride in that.

When an INTP has low self-esteem, it probably results from some combination of these:
1. INTP deconstructs everything, including itself.
2. INTP dismisses assumptions, wanting to rely only on rational conclusions. But self-esteem is built on an internalized assumption about one's value.
3. INTP (at least originally) dismisses "feeling states" as irrelevant to truth/meaning, so one's feelings about oneself are also considered irrelevant.
4. INTP's strengths often leave it in the position of feeling out of place in society and human community -- its "rational truths" can be disruptive and meanwhile there is little intuitive sense at first of how people relate (since people typically get reduced to machines/constructs) -- and this impedes one's life success and progress. It can be extremely demoralizing to watch a majority of people who one finds vapid and shallow in many ways succeed using what is seen as inferior thinking/methods and realizing that one can never be like them nor want to be... and yet not succeed as oneself either. INTP adaptability leads many to start flexing to society's opinion and wondering if indeed it is a failure and waste of human space.

In any case, a lot of identity and self-esteem comes from assumptions about one's value and self, but INTP constantly wants to "step outside and scrutinize" oneself... and deconstructing self is not a pathway that really leads to self-esteem, it just tends to eradicate self by reducing it to a quantitative equation.
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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I think a more correct way of saying it is that we're not impulsive. I don't think it has much to do with self-esteem. Sure, the lack of impulsiveness and other things may cause self-esteem issues in some INTP's. Still I don't lack self-esteem, but some people have wondered if I do, because I just happen to think things through and don't act impulsively. Two different things.
 

INTP

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sx
i dont have a low self-esteem, but i dont really dont have a clue if i am good enough for other peoples standards in many areas. i think its completely different thing, but may look similar on the surface. this not knowing makes me doubt similar things than if i would have a low self-esteem, but not because i think im not good, but because i dont know if i am good enough. the fact that im striving to perfection on too many things kinda accelerates this doubting myself, because just barely good enough is not good enough for me and since i dont even know whats good enough for others makes it even worse.
 

Lucas

New member
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Jun 26, 2010
Messages
108
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INTP
I would not say that it's because "other type are superior," because in many ways INTP assumes that its rational process is superior to other methods of thinking/decision-making, and also often views itself as "smarter than others" and takes pride in that.

When an INTP has low self-esteem, it probably results from some combination of these:
1. INTP deconstructs everything, including itself.
2. INTP dismisses assumptions, wanting to rely only on rational conclusions. But self-esteem is built on an internalized assumption about one's value.
3. INTP (at least originally) dismisses "feeling states" as irrelevant to truth/meaning, so one's feelings about oneself are also considered irrelevant.
4. INTP's strengths often leave it in the position of feeling out of place in society and human community -- its "rational truths" can be disruptive and meanwhile there is little intuitive sense at first of how people relate (since people typically get reduced to machines/constructs) -- and this impedes one's life success and progress. It can be extremely demoralizing to watch a majority of people who one finds vapid and shallow in many ways succeed using what is seen as inferior thinking/methods and realizing that one can never be like them nor want to be... and yet not succeed as oneself either. INTP adaptability leads many to start flexing to society's opinion and wondering if indeed it is a failure and waste of human space.

In any case, a lot of identity and self-esteem comes from assumptions about one's value and self, but INTP constantly wants to "step outside and scrutinize" oneself... and deconstructing self is not a pathway that really leads to self-esteem, it just tends to eradicate self by reducing it to a quantitative equation.

Basically this.

But add to that high personal standards and a constant deconstruction of personal ability to the point where it is doubted than any standard can be reached.
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

Consulting Detective
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Aug 10, 2010
Messages
1,450
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JiNe
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5W4
We don't always have low self esteem. I sometimes do, but it comes in waves. Now I have an identity crisis!

Anyway, the reason we get it I think is because the world is a huge and bizarre place, and people do all sorts of things we consider irrational or stupid, and as INTPs, what we want is for everything to MAKE SENSE. Everything is a system that needs to be broken down and organised rationally. But it can't always be. Things aren't always as simple as putting numbers into an equation and acting based on the results. People and life are unpredictable and sometimes because we overthink things, we see where we have failed, and we can't understand why, and we notice our failures. They stick out. So we feel that we are less competent than others who may be more action focused and who may fail as much or more than us, but do not dwell on it. When we are in a healthier state, we can be more rational about our failures and not think of ourselves as outsiders from the world, but one and the same. We are just like everyone else. We can succeed and we can fail. Everyone makes mistakes, but it is better to look past this and focus on improving ourselves from these mistakes. Just the fact that the large majority of the population thinks vastly differently to the INTP leads them to be confused about the world and feel like an outsider.
 

Red Herring

Superwoman
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Yes to Jennifer, Lucas and MrSherlockholmes. This might be an E5 thing, but if you messure your self worth by your competency, knowledge, etc. this is bound to lead to frustration because 1. there will always be somebody smarter than you and 2. there is a shere infinite amount of stuff to know that you never even heard about, so good luck trying to get a hold of it. Procrastinating any action that might get you ahead in life doesn´t help either, of course.:doh:
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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1. there will always be somebody smarter than you and 2. there is a shere infinite amount of stuff to know that you never even heard about, so good luck trying to get a hold of it. Procrastinating any action that might get you ahead in life doesn´t help either, of course.:doh:

I think I'm E5 (although admittedly I am not sure about the Enneagram stuff.). But I am assuming that I am. Still, from my, assumedly E5, perspective. I'd say that E5 would go beyond your assumption and beat those points of frustration with even more rationality!

On point 1.
Knowing that there is, or might be, someone smarter than me, is of absolutely no use to me other than indulging in said person's smartness in order to achieve that same level of smartness.

And on point 2.
I've always said that my ideal would be to fall one step short of omnipotence, because it's not about aquiring all information and knowledge. It's about being able to reach for more information and knowledge. I always want to be able to reach out and gain more insights. If I was to be omnipotent, allknowing. I would have nothing left to live for. So that would suck.

Awesome that there is a near infinite amount of knowledge out there. Enough to know that, even if we beat old age and I live to see thousands of years, I'd still be capable of reaching out. Awesome-sauce! But I wouldn't let that discourage me from not reaching our anymore, in fact, it encourages me to reach out!!

If there wasn't a near infinite source of knowledge, I'd hate to be able to 'accidentally' attain it all and find myself left wanting for more...


So meassuring my self worth by my knowledge doesn't frustrate me. :D

In fact, not measuring my self worth by my knowledge would probably frustrate me. *ponders*
 

Red Herring

Superwoman
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I congratulate you on your healthy attitude. The OP asked what was going on when things go wrong, so I described who that value system could lead to frustration, naturally it doesn´t have to do so.

On point 1: Competitiveness is a risky business, so your approach makes sense. Not sure if it´s always so easy to "indulge" in someone else´s smartness though. You can always learn from them, if that´s what you mean.

On point 2: Of course it would be horrible to have no more information to look forward to, I was merely referring to how it can be intimidating to see how little you know in comparison.
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Quick question that I've not been able to get a definitive answer for.

Are there control elements to the internalising of self-perceived failure?
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

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And on point 2.
I've always said that my ideal would be to fall one step short of omnipotence, because it's not about aquiring all information and knowledge. It's about being able to reach for more information and knowledge. I always want to be able to reach out and gain more insights. If I was to be omnipotent, allknowing. I would have nothing left to live for. So that would suck.

If you think about it, all we ever do is strive for things, yet once we have those things, we simply move on to wanting other things, and if we have everything, we are not happy. So really what is the point in striving for something which will not ever really bring us happiness? We are all just searching for something for nothing.

Sorry to be all nihilistic for a moment.:D
 

ZPowers

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4. INTP's strengths often leave it in the position of feeling out of place in society and human community -- its "rational truths" can be disruptive and meanwhile there is little intuitive sense at first of how people relate (since people typically get reduced to machines/constructs) -- and this impedes one's life success and progress. It can be extremely demoralizing to watch a majority of people who one finds vapid and shallow in many ways succeed using what is seen as inferior thinking/methods and realizing that one can never be like them nor want to be... and yet not succeed as oneself either. INTP adaptability leads many to start flexing to society's opinion and wondering if indeed it is a failure and waste of human space.

This one, in particular, bothered me for years. I used to have major esteem issues (sometimes I still feel that way), but I've gotten better and more comfortable over the last few years, especially having found people like me and embracing the sect of society I attract as one I have no interest in trading for another.
 

Craft

Probably Most Brilliant
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I would not say that it's because "other type are superior," because in many ways INTP assumes that its rational process is superior to other methods of thinking/decision-making, and also often views itself as "smarter than others" and takes pride in that.

Yes. But not me.

When an INTP has low self-esteem, it probably results from some combination of these:
1. INTP deconstructs everything, including itself.
2. INTP dismisses assumptions, wanting to rely only on rational conclusions. But self-esteem is built on an internalized assumption about one's value.

In any case, a lot of identity and self-esteem comes from assumptions about one's value and self, but INTP constantly wants to "step outside and scrutinize" oneself... and deconstructing self is not a pathway that really leads to self-esteem, it just tends to eradicate self by reducing it to a quantitative equation.

Does it? This is new and interesting to me. But it is true that there is no inherent meaning in ourselves, correct?

I basically source my own low self-esteem on occasional situations wherein another social animal "seems" to have better capability than me. So I guess it depends by comparison, my judgement(which always fails) and my need for comparison.

As for the deconstruction leads to low self-esteem, It reminds of me of my many moments of "whys" and how that often leads to myself depressing over having no 'purpose' or meaning in life.
 

metasapiens

New member
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Jul 17, 2010
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N>JI
Seriously, most IxxPs are prone to intropunition and self deprecation when they lose the purpose of protecting the object from the subject. They adapt themselves for the sake of it, they deprive themselves of all legitimacy as an object and a subject, using of the pacifist's fallacy to justify their resignation.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
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7,263
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The INTP's skill is in comparing something to an ideal to find a flaw. That's why they're superior at debate. If you turn that skill inward, you'll eventually start to find a lot of flaws in yourself and generate a lot of shame.
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

Consulting Detective
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This one, in particular, bothered me for years. I used to have major esteem issues (sometimes I still feel that way), but I've gotten better and more comfortable over the last few years, especially having found people like me and embracing the sect of society I attract as one I have no interest in trading for another.

Yeah, I think another problem is that INTPs have only a very small section of reality that works for INTPs. In this world we have the vast majority of people being S's, and while I'm not sure of the statistics, a good lot of those are Js. And as we all know, SJs with limited understandings of the world (a fair few) can be eternally frustrating to INTPs. All these unnecessary social, political and organisational rules that have been built up in society over time, hanging on to old and outdated principles. Society values hard work (this one is fair enough) far more than imagination and a desire to seek truth. It's a society that most of the time, does not want change, does not want truth. Just order, and is run by greed and consumerism. This sort of thing rarely sits well with INTPs. We are outcasts to the majority of the world. We just have vastly different ways of thinking. The happy INTP is the one who can find a sanctuary from the rest of reality where they can relate with people who understand them, utilise their gifts effectively and not be excessively restrained by societal pressures. Otherwise, they end up feeling that either they are inadequate, or that the world around them is, which can lead to depression if overthought.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
I often wish that I could live with monks. Not become one, but just enjoy the COMPLETE silence, besides the amazing chanting, all the time. It just makes me feel warm inside. I'd say the completeness of analysis of everything is most definitly what causes my depression. I don't leave any stone unturned even if it has been turned a million times because something could be different this time around.
 
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