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  1. #31
    . bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    8w7 sx/sp


    I'm going to answer the opening post directly:

    1. Women are not treated with as much respect in the workplace. I know this is improving, but you still get a lot of people who want men in charge and to keep women out of business. Even though most will claim to be unbiased, it's not always true.

    To believe in limitations and failure can easily crystallise to failure. Instead of internalising obstacles, look at them as puzzle challenges. How can I position myself to get from A to Z? The more you focus on professionalism and goals, with little to no drama (egad, office drama is the worst!), the more respect you're going to acquire. But expect that there will be some who don't like or appreciate your efforts and there's nothing you can do to change their perception so disregard and carry on. It's always a losing proposition to try to prove yourself to someone who's not open to change.

    The above has worked for me. Being liked or popular doesn't have much meaning compared to getting the job done that you're paid to do.

    2. Traditionally, men seem to be more attracted to F women and not those so intense and organisational as the NTJs. The masculine role traditionally asks for the men to be in control (as sexist as that is).

    As far as attracting men, I think most women don't have too many problems. Where I fail has to do with how I resent thus handle, providing proof to offset insecurities within my partners and also, nixing relationships in a hurry. When it comes to partners, I don't nurture, expecting an equal partnership. It's my understanding that these are TJ traits. Maybe so or maybe I'm too picky, at present avoiding relationships until I can get nutbar Fi assimilated.

  2. #32
    He who laughs
    Join Date
    Dec 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think we can agree that in most relationships one partner takes a more proactive role and the other takes a more supportive role. for example, in my parents' relationship, my INTP dad is more supportive and my ESFJ mom more proactive, but their decisions are made very much together. my mom does not proceed forward on big family decisions without his approval, nor him without hers. in this case i think it's more of a J-P difference. my mom is a mover and a shaker; dad is a thinker. dad provides more of the income, but mom does more of the practical, day-to-day legwork and planning. neither of them has a leg up over the other and both compromise to meet the other. it just works out. and i assume one day i will be the more supportive partner in a marriage since i am naturally drawn to more assertive people. i am quite happy with that. it will allow us both to flourish.
    Exactly and I agree with you. What I have a problem with is men that dont have a backbone.

    however, it's sounding like you want to be the lead in the relationship mostly because of insecurity... i don't hear you cite any religious reasons nor personal preferences for it. and i think it's going to be really difficult to find a partner who is happy with you taking the lead because you are insecure. i trust people to lead because they are good at acting in ways that account for everyone, because they are proactive and assertive, because they are stable and confident. because they are moving toward something, not running away from something. i do respect your desire to improve yourself via being a leader - i have done the same thing - and i also understand your desire not to end up powerless or distanced. that would be an awful situation. still, it sounds like you're coming to any potential relationship with an inherent distrust of your partner - a suspicion that she may, if not kept under close check, someday overpower you - and that is, ironically, almost guaranteed to destroy any otherwise potentially healthy marriage. it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    Interesting thoughts. I dont have a desire to be the initiator. I just want to feel apart of the relationship. Maybe its insecurity, might very well be, since I can see myself be too involved in other things than the relationship. Or maybe Im just too perfectionistic.

    just for the sake of psychological theorizing, at the core of distrust for your partner probably lies distrust for yourself. theoretically it would stand that you don't trust yourself to be able to stop a proactive, assertive woman from shutting you off or emasculating you, thus you need this structure to make up for your personal deficiencies. you need it to protect yourself, or at least to help make you more capable, and that, again ironically, will distance you all on its own. counterintuitively, trust yourself and trust your partner, and the cycle will be broken.

    but that is just theorizing. it could be something entirely else.
    Interesting, but lets get back to the topic.

    I can see where I went wrong. I need to contemplate this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Why should it be the man? Assigning any roles or default functions based upon something as arbitrary as gender makes little sense. The leader, or organizer, or primary decision maker should be the one who would do the best job, based upon abilities, background, inclination, temperament, etc. In practice, many couples share taking the lead, based upon the situation at hand. And if anything should be equal in a relationship, it is both parties' responsiblity for making the relationship work. No one can abdicate their share of this to another, male or female.

    What you are describing sounds well-meaning, but is just a kinder and gentler sexism.
    Yes, I wholeheartedly agree

  3. #33
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010


    Because people will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to try to convince you
    that doing things their way will solve your problems like we're a joke to them. NTJ females
    are often seen as a threat because being smarter than given credit for, we sometimes pick
    up on too much about things.


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