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  1. #21


    Quote Originally Posted by mrsherlockholmes View Post
    I'd imagine this particularly would be difficult for a few gender role related reasons.

    1. Women are not treated with as much respect in the workplace. I know this is improving, but you still get a lot of people who want men in charge and to keep women out of business. Even though most will claim to be unbiased, it's not always true.

    2. Traditionally, men seem to be more attracted to F women and not those so intense and organizational as the NTJs. The masculine role traditionally asks for the men to be in control (as sexist as that is).

    So do you NTJ women normally have a problem with this sort of thing? Or are others generally more open to challenging these gender roles?
    Yeah! ...

    Actually one of the first threads I made on this forum related to this issue. It was called "The great androgenous mix up."

    I tend to think the stronger the personality you have, the more specialized you become, and opportunities lessen. This could be with men, women, work dynamics. My biggest problem is relating to people with confidence issues trying to knock you "down." Or people of authority attempting to keep you in your place.

    I think I can be pretty intimidating, and that naturally leads to more contention than the average person. People place limits and restrictions on you a lot so they don't get overwhelmed. Or people try to change you into an extreme, show more of the girly side, show more of the business side. People take issues with the balance cause it just fucks with their senses or something.

    I guess what it all comes down to though, is that I essentially view that as YOUR problem. So.

  2. #22
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007


    I think female NTJs have to work harder to have things go swimmingly with a variety of people. I don't know that this is a bad thing. Sometimes having to pocket a larger repertoire of options puts one at an advantage from the others who didn't have to because their first try went well.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009


    I dont find feelings dominated chicks that attractive, plus I've worked for as many female bosses as male ones, I'll be honest that a lot of the time its easier to work for male bosses, unless they're alcoholic losers.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

    whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

  4. #24
    Member A. Zhang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010


    Newsweek recently ran an article on how men are actually losing the pace in the modern post-recession world.

    So, being a female NTJ might actually be a grand advantage.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by coconut View Post
    It can be hard, sometimes. [...] you can start to feel irrelevant with nothing to offer [...]

  6. #26
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Apr 2010
    5w6 sp/sx


    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Yes delegation was the wrong word, that doesnt make it sound like an equal relationship. But I meant it as a way where I would let the spouse do things that I knew she was better at. Its like a flat organization but with one thats responsible for the wellbeing of the relationship runs smoothly. And that person would be the man.
    Why should it be the man? Assigning any roles or default functions based upon something as arbitrary as gender makes little sense. The leader, or organizer, or primary decision maker should be the one who would do the best job, based upon abilities, background, inclination, temperament, etc. In practice, many couples share taking the lead, based upon the situation at hand. And if anything should be equal in a relationship, it is both parties' responsiblity for making the relationship work. No one can abdicate their share of this to another, male or female.

    What you are describing sounds well-meaning, but is just a kinder and gentler sexism.

  7. #27
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Jun 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What you are describing sounds well-meaning, but is just a kinder and gentler sexism.
    I wholeheartedly agree. +10000000.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #28
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007


    I’ve often wondered how much my life would suck if I maintained the same personality while being female instead of male. A lot of the things that people find endearing in me as a male would be seen as a flaw if I were of the opposite gender. Confidence and blunt honestly suddenly translates into being bitchy and I assume that I’d be steered away from science and business at an early age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What you are describing sounds well-meaning, but is just a kinder and gentler sexism.
    Exactly what needed to be said two pages ago. +1

    Quote Originally Posted by A. Zhang View Post
    Newsweek recently ran an article on how men are actually losing the pace in the modern post-recession world.
    So, being a female NTJ might actually be a grand advantage.
    Gender roles still haven't changed to suit that. A business-woman still isn't held in anywhere near as high regard as a man with the same level of experience.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  9. #29
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    3w4 sp/so



    I'll be honest, it's pretty fucked up how disadvantaged women tend to be in the workplace. Lower pay for same qualifications, social expectations, the trait translations:

    Men <---> Women

    Assertive <---> Bitch
    Loyal <---> Clingy
    Intellectual <---> Arrogant (or if you're an N, ironically, ditzy and out-there)
    Independent <---> Irresponsible/Cold


    And ironically, I hear that women are judged more harshly for expressing emotion in the office than men are. But then people like me have the opposite problem - appearing too detached.

    The corporate world is like a bicycling marathon. All I can do is just stay in the race - if I give up, I win nothing. Persist and play the game advantageously, and I can win or at least be close to winning. Being a woman, it's like being in the race with a sprained ankle. So all I've got to do is knock everyone else off their bikes and break their ankles, too.

    J/K. But I do go by a unisex name and pay special attention to how I'm conducting myself. The last thing I need is to help validate a female stereotype - or act like such a blatant frat-boy just to get in the boy's club. People can smell desperation miles away.


    Hasn't been a problem for me. I sure as hell don't want a domineering guy. I find that the type of guys I turn off are the ones whose girlfriends I feel sorry for. By being myself, I automatically weed out guys who might be more domineering or chauvinistic.

    And while men may disfavor NTJ women, I think a lot of women disfavor NF men. So it works out nicely. More NFish for me.
    3w4-9w1-?w6 (nearly headless nick)
    Lawful Evil



  10. #30
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    6w7 so/sx
    EII Ne


    mrcockburn, i love you for that post.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot
    I personally have been raised in the conservative way where it is expected of the man to take the lead, but not in a way where I would dominate and control my spouse. It will be a relationship based on common respect and humility when it comes to ones weak spots. Plus for me pragmatic I think that the responsibility of having to take the lead for our relationships wellbeing would be help me develope as a person. So Im looking for a girl that can respect me as much to not take the lead when I fail but encourage me to take the lead.
    slowriot, the thing that's really funny to me about your proposed situation is that i would probably really enjoy that relationship construct, because i'm kind of laid back and don't feel any huge need to lead in general - i enjoy and feel like i am quite productive in a more supportive role - but i could not handle that structure because of your reasons for it.

    i think we can agree that in most relationships one partner takes a more proactive role and the other takes a more supportive role. for example, in my parents' relationship, my INTP dad is more supportive and my ESFJ mom more proactive, but their decisions are made very much together. my mom does not proceed forward on big family decisions without his approval, nor him without hers. in this case i think it's more of a J-P difference. my mom is a mover and a shaker; dad is a thinker. dad provides more of the income, but mom does more of the practical, day-to-day legwork and planning. neither of them has a leg up over the other and both compromise to meet the other. it just works out. and i assume one day i will be the more supportive partner in a marriage since i am naturally drawn to more assertive people. i am quite happy with that. it will allow us both to flourish.

    however, it's sounding like you want to be the lead in the relationship mostly because of insecurity... i don't hear you cite any religious reasons nor personal preferences for it. and i think it's going to be really difficult to find a partner who is happy with you taking the lead because you are insecure. i trust people to lead because they are good at acting in ways that account for everyone, because they are proactive and assertive, because they are stable and confident. because they are moving toward something, not running away from something. i do respect your desire to improve yourself via being a leader - i have done the same thing - and i also understand your desire not to end up powerless or distanced. that would be an awful situation. still, it sounds like you're coming to any potential relationship with an inherent distrust of your partner - a suspicion that she may, if not kept under close check, someday overpower you - and that is, ironically, almost guaranteed to destroy any otherwise potentially healthy marriage. it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    just for the sake of psychological theorizing, at the core of distrust for your partner probably lies distrust for yourself. theoretically it would stand that you don't trust yourself to be able to stop a proactive, assertive woman from shutting you off or emasculating you, thus you need this structure to make up for your personal deficiencies. you need it to protect yourself, or at least to help make you more capable, and that, again ironically, will distance you all on its own. counterintuitively, trust yourself and trust your partner, and the cycle will be broken.

    but that is just theorizing. it could be something entirely else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose
    Small habits that I've picked up over the years that were hard for me:
    - Trying not to cuss like a sailor
    me too.

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