[NT] What do ENTPs think of INTPs

[entropie]

answer:
2 words
"Grow up"
or the dramatic version : "Grow the fuck up"

you have to be impolite, otherwise u get into the safe words like 'open minded' which are most used by closed minded people to make themselves feel good about how special they are.
It's about giving people a kick, no amount of ass kissing is ever going to do it. Evolution isn't about half measures. And you can't really "teach people to think for themselves" by definition.

I respect your opinion, although I dont agree with it.

The thing about evolution just reminded me of Babylon 5, the tv series, in which the Vorlons and the Shadows are in disarray. I found this sentence by accident and it's really good:

Shadow (Babylon 5) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Shadows are a fictional alien species in the science fiction television series Babylon 5. Their homeworld is Z'ha'dum. In contrast to the Vorlons, whose philosophy is represented by the question "Who are you?", that of the Shadows is represented by the question "What do you want?", centering towards desire rather than identity. J. Michael Straczynski, the show's creator, once explained that he chose the name "Shadows" because of its meaning in Jungian psychology.[1]

If you transcend this theory to a new very theorethical plane, it should be the entp way. To create evolution, thru conflict...

But more tomorrow, I've to write an exam in 8 hours, gn8

 

[digesthisickness]

I feel like I pwned you enough already for one thread. I'm not a total sadist.

not a total sadist, no.

A brief review will demonstrate that I merely agreed with another ENTP's assessment of ENTP characteristics.

no, a brief review would not show that. if that's all you did then i wouldn't have said anything. what you did was take something someone else said and stated completely different "facts" by wrongly using their statement as a basis. something you constantly do. this is the post in which you did this very thing:

I was gonna say something to this effect - all NTs have a tendency to be combative/dismissive. And what entropie was saying about insecurity is true. Many (most?) ENTPs are profoundly insecure, hence the need to impose themselves on their environment / make an impression. They need massive amounts of reassurance too. It gets wearing. But then I realised that this is turning into the "what intps think of entps" thread.

one, you aren't an ENTP and therefore know exactly jackshit about what one needs or how each individual one would go about getting it. two, you took what he said, twisted it into an insult, and then stated your opinions as facts. normally, i can look over stupidity like this, but when it's repeated over and over in a thread to where the topic becomes less about the OP and more about the attention-whore, then i can't help but notice it.

and, since i, contrary to what you implied with this post:

Is that the one who joins private forums just to shit talk people and gossips on VM about other members here?

Yeah, I heard about her. Bad news.

don't do this, but instead, speak directly to the person, i spoke up. i find it interesting that you say the above AND the following and accuse me of possibly incriminating myself.

Then you jumped all over me and started with your characteristically unoriginal personal attacks. *yawn*
Give it up already.

when, in actuality, and as i've shown with this post, that's your MO.

when tallulah posted a meaningful post about her experiences with ONE ENTP, you then twisted that too into it being her insulting all ENTPs. and, i say 'all' because this thread isn't about her one experience, it's about ENTPs:

LOL. Awesome put-down.

you then, upon "brief review", state this:

We really need to retitle this thread already. It's been hijacked by ENTP neediness.

when there was no lead up to it at all and no proof behind the statement. it's just a flat out, characteristic, unprovoked morgan insult. which, again, wouldn't bother me on its own, but the thread started to, again, turn into why everyone should look at morgan.

i came out and asked you to come up with a new insult, and the one you came up with is, "i pwned you!".

well, morgan, i don't feel pwned, so try again.

 

[mrcockburn]

Extroverts always say that (or something like that) - "get loud, it will be fun!". But everytime I do it, it doesn't work. Everyone just goes: How is that fun?

Being sarcastic and a jokester - that I can do. Getting loud and crazy - it just doesn't work for us most of the time.

haha! Well it's not something that can be forced. But under certain circumstances, like lots of...

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I hear that a lot from younger ENTPs, and it's possible you get "what people really think" from some people by being impolite or pushing their buttons. However, you don't get it from all people. After a certain point in life, people tire of getting poked and prodded and they expect people to have acquired some social tools. So rather than yell at you, revealing their "true thoughts," they'll simply think you're obnoxious and walk away. And you might draw the wrong conclusion from that exchange, assuming that there is something wrong with most people in the world when it might have been the approach that needed tweaking.

You don't have to kick people's asses. Like entropie says, if you know how to ask the right questions in the right manner (respectfully, and as if you give a damn what they think), and if you have created an environment where they feel comfortable sharing that information with you, you will find that there are some very bright people in the world. You can't just expect people to share their innermost thoughts and philosophies just because someone brashly walked up and demanded it of them.

I agree completely. And the terse nonsequitur following your post indicates that you probably have a good point.

Another facet to this is that the answer you get if you're aggressive is likely different than the answer you get if you approach in a more civil manner. if you get up in people's faces and act hostile to them, they're likely to get emotional and come back at you with a concentrated over the top version of what they actually think, which doesn't reflect their true views and doesn't help anyone understand each other. How many times do people get in an argument and say "X politician is an idiot, and he's never done anything right!" when their actual view is more like "I will not vote for X politician, because I don't like his views on Y and Z."?

Of course, it helps the provoker make his case, because then he can paint you as someone with extreme views that is easy to dismiss. So, eliciting someone's take by being hostile is actually quite convenient for a provoker. If you're just interested in making someone look bad, it works. But if you actually want to understand someone, it doesn't. My guess is that most people adopting this technique are interested in the former far more than the latter anyway.

 

[EcK]

You d think that

 

[Kasper]

At some point in this thread the INTPs kept saying what they thought about ENTPs, and the ENTPs joined in. Should I change the title to "What do ENTPs think"?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Well... my earlier comment ceases to matter now (this also points to the validity of this comment, but we'll disregard that ). I suppose I don't know any ENTP's in real life. I suspect I know one, but even he seems more Ti-ish, perhaps this is only an observation through my lens. If he is an ENTP, then I say we get along perfectly. We can say anything we want and not offend each other.

 

[ZPowers]

Count me in on the list of INTPs who had a best friend in high school (still close to this day) that was an ENTP. He's very smart and funny, but if he doesn't respect you or something you did or said he won't sugar-coat that fact. Sometimes it can make him very abrasive, but incredibly honest.

 

[Salomé]

At some point in this thread the INTPs kept saying what they thought about ENTPs, and the ENTPs joined in. Should I change the title to "What do ENTPs think"?

Noooooo!
We'll be here all day.

 

[Idontcare]

One of my best friends is an INTP. We can talk for hours upon hours about pretty much anything. We generally have the same perceptions about things except, I would say he is more content with remaining ignorant about things than putting in the time to figure them out.

 

[INTPness]

One of my best friends is an INTP. We can talk for hours upon hours about pretty much anything. We generally have the same perceptions about things except, I would say he is more content with remaining ignorant about things than putting in the time to figure them out.

With more pronounced Ti than yourself??? Ti is all about "getting it right".

The only time I don't care to "educate" myself is if I don't think it has a huge impact on the overall big picture.

Like someone was arguing with me the other day about having allergies from being around animals. About 60 seconds into the argument, I was basically "over it". I don't want to spend time arguing about it, because I don't really care. It doesn't really affect my quality of life or anything (plus I was busy at the moment), so I'm not going to argue with you over it. And maybe that person thought I was "content to remain ignorant" about the subject.

If it's an "important issue" that makes a difference in the day-to-day, then Ti isn't going to "remain ignorant". Ti is going to learn about it until it understands it fully. In fact, I would even argue that Ti will "over-educate" itself.

 

[Idontcare]

With more pronounced Ti than yourself??? Ti is all about "getting it right".

The only time I don't care to "educate" myself is if I don't think it has a huge impact on the overall big picture.

Like someone was arguing with me the other day about having allergies from being around animals. About 60 seconds into the argument, I was basically "over it". I don't want to spend time arguing about it, because I don't really care. It doesn't really affect my quality of life or anything (plus I was busy at the moment), so I'm not going to argue with you over it. And maybe that person thought I was "content to remain ignorant" about the subject.

If it's an "important issue" that makes a difference in the day-to-day, then Ti isn't going to "remain ignorant". Ti is going to learn about it until it understands it fully. In fact, I would even argue that Ti will "over-educate" itself.

Sorry I guess I didnt articulate that well. He and I will get into a debate about something, and if I win and convince him of my side, he will admit it but he will remain obstinate and stay the exact same way simply because he doesnt
want to change even if he can see the error in his ways. This would probably make more sense if I told you what we argue about... we are usually debating about wastefulness or what is hurting our Earth or views on religion. He generally takes a very irrational approach on almost all of the issue. If he runs out of defense for his side of things he will begin to make up things just to try and prove me wrong, but anyway, I see your point and that's probably what's going on in his head.

 

[Craft]

Sorry I guess I didnt articulate that well. He and I will get into a debate about something, and if I win and convince him of my side, he will admit it but he will remain obstinate and stay the exact same way simply because he doesnt
want to change even if he can see the error in his ways. This would probably make more sense if I told you what we argue about... we are usually debating about wastefulness or what is hurting our Earth or views on religion. He generally takes a very irrational approach on almost all of the issue. If he runs out of defense for his side of things he will begin to make up things just to try and prove me wrong, but anyway, I see your point and that's probably what's going on in his head.

There is also the possibility of a mistype. Regardless, people in general are prone to shifting their viewpoints to benefit their "victory" in arguments. Personally, I value truth [indirectly related to Dom Ti] but not all INTP's are honest---especially when they're very competitive.

In addition, him not wanting to change even if he can see the error of his ways could be because he can see the positives of his ways. There is the possibility that he's waiting for further information before conclusion.

Irrational is dependent on the issue. If he runs out of defense, then he has lost that specific argument. If he tries to disprove your argument, that is another argument. These two ifs are because I see your arguments as comparative instead of logical versus illogical. Can you write your discussion word by word?

 

[Salomé]

not a total sadist, no.



no, a brief review would not show that. if that's all you did then i wouldn't have said anything. what you did was take something someone else said and stated completely different "facts" by wrongly using their statement as a basis. something you constantly do. this is the post in which you did this very thing:



one, you aren't an ENTP and therefore know exactly jackshit about what one needs or how each individual one would go about getting it. two, you took what he said, twisted it into an insult, and then stated your opinions as facts. normally, i can look over stupidity like this, but when it's repeated over and over in a thread to where the topic becomes less about the OP and more about the attention-whore, then i can't help but notice it.

and, since i, contrary to what you implied with this post:



don't do this, but instead, speak directly to the person, i spoke up. i find it interesting that you say the above AND the following and accuse me of possibly incriminating myself.




when, in actuality, and as i've shown with this post, that's your MO.

when tallulah posted a meaningful post about her experiences with ONE ENTP, you then twisted that too into it being her insulting all ENTPs. and, i say 'all' because this thread isn't about her one experience, it's about ENTPs:



you then, upon "brief review", state this:



when there was no lead up to it at all and no proof behind the statement. it's just a flat out, characteristic, unprovoked morgan insult. which, again, wouldn't bother me on its own, but the thread started to, again, turn into why everyone should look at morgan.

i came out and asked you to come up with a new insult, and the one you came up with is, "i pwned you!".

well, morgan, i don't feel pwned, so try again.

Wow. I don’t know whether to be flattered that you’ve departed so far from the one-line backhander into the territory of tl;dr; or creeped out.
I think I’ll settle on the latter.

If I don’t know anything else to accuse you of in this past year, it’s because after the incident (that you say didn’t happen, then happened a long time ago, then didn’t happen ), I wrote you off, I think I even had you on ignore for quite a while. Sorry, I don’t pay as much attention to your posts as you do mine.

You’re fully entitled to argue that my impressions of ENTPs are misguided (even though at least one has agreed with everything I’ve written), but instead you offer a further example of just how spot on they are. This amuses me.
....



I was talking to a friend about ENTPs the other day, and we concluded that the insecurity comes from a very specific vulnerability that ENTPs have: the need to be liked/ admired/ respected by people, set against that generalised NT drive for self-sufficiency and disdain/ impatience/ competitiveness with others. It creates a tension and a very real problem for them. I see it over and over. I see it in this thread. I see it in sim’s banning, I see it in the way the ones I know personally have fucked up their relationships and I see further evidence in the ENTP relationship threads here. Honestly, I’m not seeing anything to persuade me otherwise. I’m sure there are ENTPs who have it all figured out – but they’re probably out being fabulous and not on here to argue their case.

 

[INTPness]

Being that this is a "what do ENTP's think of INTP's" thread, I'm pretty sure they see a boatload of insecurities and shortcomings in us as well.

It's not like INTP's = awesomeness and ENTP's = losers. Or, INTP = and ENTP =

This thread is getting "catty". I've read through it a couple times and I haven't seen anyone "pwning" anyone else. Far from it. It's more like a bunch of "I'm going to get the last word" bickering.

Good thing it's not like that with the ENTP's or INTP's I know in real life. If it was, I wouldn't remain friends with them. Overall, I think ENTP's make some of the best, most understanding friends for the very finnicky (is that a word?) nature of INTP's.

 

[Idontcare]

There is also the possibility of a mistype. Regardless, people in general are prone to shifting their viewpoints to benefit their "victory" in arguments. Personally, I value truth [indirectly related to Dom Ti] but not all INTP's are honest---especially when they're very competitive.

In addition, him not wanting to change even if he can see the error of his ways could be because he can see the positives of his ways. There is the possibility that he's waiting for further information before conclusion.

Irrational is dependent on the issue. If he runs out of defense, then he has lost that specific argument. If he tries to disprove your argument, that is another argument. These two ifs are because I see your arguments as comparative instead of logical versus illogical. Can you write your discussion word by word?

I think you pretty much nailed it. I would write down the entire argument but im too lazy/I dont think i could remember the entire argument word for word. I dont think its a mistype, I just think he isnt your everyday intp. He isnt extremely introverted but he doesnt really like people either. I definitely wouldnt say he has any form of the man from mars effect. Not many people dislike him either which doesnt seem very intp-ish either.

 

[Salomé]

Being that this is a "what do ENTP's think of INTP's" thread, I'm pretty sure they see a boatload of insecurities and shortcomings in us as well.

It's not like INTP's = awesomeness and ENTP's = losers. Or, INTP = and ENTP =

I think you're being overly sensitive on behalf of ENTPs which is causing you to stray into logical fallacy. Of course, INTPs have their own insecurities, but because we care less/need less from the environment, we don't have the same tension between goals that I was trying to elucidate. That's not an insult, it's just an observation/theory which I find interesting, because on the surface they seem so full of self-confidence.

digest's weak trolling of me in this thread and attempt to reframe everything I say as an attack is purely a reflection of her own transparent agenda. Don't fall for it.
I actually came into this thread to defend ENTPs against some of noz's accusations.

All this discussion demonstrates is that INTPs spend more time thinking about ENTPs than they do us.

 

[entropie]

Working for intps in this thread starts feeling like this:

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXqEMuXGK08"].[/YOUTUBE]

 

[entropie]

Being that this is a "what do ENTP's think of INTP's" thread, I'm pretty sure they see a boatload of insecurities and shortcomings in us as well.

It's not like INTP's = awesomeness and ENTP's = losers. Or, INTP = and ENTP =

This thread is getting "catty". I've read through it a couple times and I haven't seen anyone "pwning" anyone else. Far from it. It's more like a bunch of "I'm going to get the last word" bickering.

Good thing it's not like that with the ENTP's or INTP's I know in real life. If it was, I wouldn't remain friends with them. Overall, I think ENTP's make some of the best, most understanding friends for the very finnicky (is that a word?) nature of INTP's.

I had this image in the back of my head, in which one person always criticizes you for the things you do and puts you down to the greatest extent possible and later that day, the person criticizing ends up alone with himself. I dont know, but I personally think one needs to learn to criticize aswell, one just cant shoot his mind all the time. There can be always a lot of people, who give you nice responses to your shit but there is always the possibility that the majority just does it to keep you at bay.

 

[yenom]

yeah what others have said here seems to echo my experiences. I have an ENTP prof for some philosophy classes and he always told us that philosophy was a public endevor and task and that we MUST come forward with our thoughts on matters. Sometimes i felt as if he were speaking right to me because I would give one or two sentence inputs when I had a lot more i could say (in reality he was probably just trying to encourage class dialogue but still...)


The thing is though - how many of you ENTPs out there saying that crap actually DO appreciate it when we INTPs run our fuckin' mouths? it seems to me you guys regret it after the fact because you resent the input we've given. I've found NTJs MUCH more receptive AND appreciative to my input, generally speaking. ENTPs don't seem to wanna be bothered with our input, or any other input that runs against their train of thought..... So much so that I usually don't engage them whatsoever. /shrug

Dude, so much anger.