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[INTP] The INTP and Feelings

wildcat

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Jun 8, 2007
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Except that coffee is, as wildcat says, a very important element before making any move towards any direction, things are not usually as simple as to or crawl either move to a different system. If your objective is to simply have a coffee and the system is relatively good on the whole, then you just do what you have to do to achieve the goal. If you want to change system anyways but you need what you can get from the existent system before making the move, then you do again what the system requires you to do.
It is called: play with their rules to take what you need from them.

On a side note, I can't say I'd crawl, but I certainly could go on great lengths in order to have my coffee. Especially if it's the morning coffee.
Appreciated.
It can have its uses though.

A History.
Nikita Sergejewich Chrutchov was a squat man with short legs. He was the Party boss in the Ukraine.
One day Stalin invited him to supper.

During the supper Stalin asked him to dance the Russian dance Ripaschka.
A very difficult exercise even to a man less pudgy than Chrutchov.

Nikita Sergejewich did dance Ripaschka. Everybody laughed. He looked ridiculous.

Chrutchov said later: When Stalin tells you to dance Ripaschka, a wise man dances Ripaschka.
 

htb

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I forgot to cup my hands. But I can cup them now if you want.
The brew you were asking for has long since gone cold. It -- it just wouldn't be the same.
 

ygolo

My termites win
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Aug 6, 2007
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I think the difference is in priorities. I would say, as a rule of thumb, that INTPs would much rather give ground to others' emotions than take up others' space with our own. It's all about placidity, ease, calm in the outside world... but that's not being true to our own emotions. Sometimes to truly engage what we're feeling, doors need to be kicked down and fires need to be set! Compassion and support are "easy" emotions (for me at least), while acknowledging and venting burning, illogical rage takes more work! In other words: it's a strain to realize that occassionally hurting others is a key component of healing your emotional self.

What exactly to you mean by "hurting" others?

I have no issues with offending people, but doing real harm to others is not something I can bring myself to do. Are you saying that this is necessary?
 

Priam

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What exactly to you mean by "hurting" others?

I have no issues with offending people, but doing real harm to others is not something I can bring myself to do. Are you saying that this is necessary?

I'm pretty sure I'd say this sober, but I'm not currently so I reserve the right to contradict myself later.

Yes.

The most momentous thing I have learned about myself and humanity as a whole is that causing pain for others is occassionally warranted and even necessary. It's an act of weighing damage, certainly, but I feel like INTPs tend to weight the damage to others far more heavily than we would damage to ourselves, when in reality they are both equally hurtful. Sometimes the sheer devastation being wrought upon our own psyches warrants inflicting major shocks, even scarring, upon another. To me, there are two different categories:

Rejecting the toxicity of others: I have disowned my grandpa. He's manic depressive, surly, outrageously emotionally violent to those around him at unpredictable times! Yet I know he desperately misses my company and will probably go to his grave wanting to see me again, without fully grasping why that isn't possible. That knowledge hurts me deeply, but I also know the personal damage of being present in his life would be far more extensive. My worth is equal to his, so I no longer associate with him knowingly.

Rejecting the toxicity in myself: Sometimes what I am feeling must be vented, and there is simply no easy or painless way to do so. In order to heal myself, I must cut into another. Does this mean I enjoy the pain I inflict? Absolutely not! I do everything I can to avoid or mitigate that when possible. Yet it is my right not to own a burden, even if rejecting it means pushing the toxic onto the one who does need to deal. Why should I lug the emotional weight that is not mine to own? Nobody is saved, nobody is healed... all I do is perpetuate the status quo.

Does any of that make sense? I'm two bottles of wine and three glasses of port down the drain, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.
 

wildcat

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The brew you were asking for has long since gone cold. It -- it just wouldn't be the same.
Not to mention the awesome biological changes that has taken place in the cup.
 

armstrongvk12

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Dec 26, 2007
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Oh, I'd agree that INTP's tend to have emotions... just not the ones you'd like them to have, or would expect them to have. They seem to overreact to insignificant expectations and can be oblivious to glaringly obvious ones, from what I can tell. And I think this improves with effort, over time. (This can apply to many other Introverted types as well.)
I completely agree with your assessment! The INTP that I dated was emotionless about some situations (breaking up with girl friends).....and would be out of control at times that seemed less appropriate (sobbing during a movie....which is not out of the norm, but the circumstances were unusual).
 

white

~dangerous curves ahead~
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I have been told by many people that I am remarkably good at understanding others, and that I can explicate that understanding in a clear and concise manner. Consequently, I have frequently acted in a counselor capacity to others, and I am acutely aware that this often involves conscious and calculated manipulation. This is not nefarious or ill-intended manipulation, but nonetheless I do intend to manipulate the emotional state and thoughts of others, and do so quite successfully, or so I am told.

In fact, I am fascinated by people, their emotions, feelings, customs, habits, predelictions, theories, incentives, motives, etc. and have invested a great deal of time studying morality and ethics. For example, some would say that I am interested in economics, but this is not quite right. Instead, I am interested in the relationships which hold between people, their well-being, conduct and the social rules which govern that. My attitude is like that of Adam Smith, who never considered himself an economist, but rather a moral philosopher.

The purpose of my writing this, is to draw attention to the fact that INTPs are often said to be uninterested, or even incapable of dealing with these issues. This view, which perhaps aligns with the common assumption that reason and emotion are inherently incompatible, with each reigning over seperate magisteria, is at odds with my life, interests, hobbies, attitude and personal experience.

There is, perhaps, a source of this confusion, in that INTPs frequently appear to be socially incompetent and awkward. There is some truth in this for me. I am not always aware of social trends, local customs, and my absent-mindedness frequently is interpreted as rudeness. I also often choose to avoid many social engagements. Moreover, I can be somewhat undiplomatic, intentionally so, and many mistake this for not understanding the "appropriate" behaviour.
Anyway, I was just posting to see if anyone else had any similar experiences. In any case, I think it is a persistent myth that those who test INTP are both emotionally and socially as deaf, dumb and blind as many suggest.

(Note: I almost always test as an INTP, very occasionally as ENTP or INTJ).

I'm not certain that emotions and reason are that easily divorced from each other IRL - I think that's where the general perception of INTPs as being cold/socially inept stems from:

INTPs (of all maturity levels, but particularly young ones) can be detached from emotions, I think. They see them as some strange critters with two horns, separate from themselves - they approach most emotions framed by thought first, vs experience relation. This is the thing which can make them good counsellors - that detachment affords the distance for clear thinking. But it can be a double-edged sword - sometimes others just want their feelings to be validated, and not analysed? And on another note, feelings are perceived as weaknesses, simply.

This does not mean they do not feel deeply. Of all types, I think the INTP suffers from emotions the most, given a tendency to feel it all, or not at all - there's very little middle road, is there?

Re social ineptness - Much of it is a certain criticality they turn on others, but mostly on themselves? I daresay an INTP at a function would criticise the need to greet everyone and spend time in social chitchat as banalities, but at the same time, they'd think they can do that if they want to. And when they do it, they'll spend the night analysing their performance later. I think INTPs do best in smaller functions when there's less sensory inputs - so they're given time to process and respond. They'd dislike social functions when there's a lack of depth and emphasis on form, I believe.

Re: perceptions of others. I guess that is simply because you know the INTP understands the form. But they do not follow it as they see little value in preserving the form. To most others, a lack of action in accordance to what is understood, simply means a failure to understand.

It's an analogy, you two.

There has to be someone with real-life experience with INTPs who recognizes this. One moment, they are laughing, interacting -- indistinguishable from the rest. Ask them the wrong question, and they're stultified.

htb, nice phrase, "stillborn romance". Do you write?

I think what you're referring to is a retreat effect. It is not that they've failed to grasp what you've said and it is off their maps hence they do not know how to act. I think it is precisely because they sense a certain danger in where you're going, that they retreat. Perhaps, a protection of pride/dignity, to think through first vs falling into the weakness of betraying their emotions.

Does that make sense?

*aelan brews wildcat a new cup of coffee*
 

Priam

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I think what you're referring to is a retreat effect. It is not that they've failed to grasp what you've said and it is off their maps hence they do not know how to act. I think it is precisely because they sense a certain danger in where you're going, that they retreat. Perhaps, a protection of pride/dignity vs falling into the weakness of betraying their emotions.

Does that make sense?

There we go! I don't shut down when baffled by something; I'm more likely to charge ahead. I want to understand this phenomenon, not run away from it. I will shut up and shut down when feeling annoyed, sad or hurt, seeking a private space to reflect without the outside world butting in. It's not that I view emotions as the enemy, indeed I consider them a great ally, but just that I cannot multitask a conversation and growing intense feelings, so one has to go.
 

alcea rosea

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I have been told by many people that I am remarkably good at understanding others, and that I can explicate that understanding in a clear and concise manner. Consequently, I have frequently acted in a counselor capacity to others, and I am acutely aware that this often involves conscious and calculated manipulation. This is not nefarious or ill-intended manipulation, but nonetheless I do intend to manipulate the emotional state and thoughts of others, and do so quite successfully, or so I am told.

I could repeat my story of INTP who thought he could manipulate people but I won’t. The thing is that you cannot think feelings you have to feel them. I wouldn’t call manipulation as good counselling on the contrary. Many times people manipulated can see it though and most of people do not appreciate it.

In fact, I am fascinated by people, their emotions, feelings, customs, habits, predelictions, theories, incentives, motives, etc. and have invested a great deal of time studying morality and ethics. For example, some would say that I am interested in economics, but this is not quite right. Instead, I am interested in the relationships which hold between people, their well-being, conduct and the social rules which govern that. My attitude is like that of Adam Smith, who never considered himself an economist, but rather a moral philosopher.

There is a difference between the observer of the feelings and the person who experiences the feelings of others (empathy). INTP's are totally able to observe but how about feeling what other people are feeling? (I don’t know, just asking.)
 

Priam

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There is a difference between the observer of the feelings and the person who experiences the feelings of others (empathy). INTP's are totally able to observe but how about feeling what other people are feeling? (I don’t know, just asking.)

Yes. I think people get confused about INTPs in this area, so I'd like to explain "intellectual empathy" and see if it resonates with any others out there or if I'm just an outlier. I deeply empathize with others, but what makes it different from INFP is it is a thinking connection, rather than a feeling. I acheive empathy via thought-experiment by putting myself in the circumstances another is facing and feeling the emotions evoked. For whatever reason, this activity usually puts me in the same place as the other person. The major difference is that this is not instinctual, but rather a skill to be developed.
 

Varelse

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Yes. I think people get confused about INTPs in this area, so I'd like to explain "intellectual empathy" and see if it resonates with any others out there or if I'm just an outlier. I deeply empathize with others, but what makes it different from INFP is it is a thinking connection, rather than a feeling. I acheive empathy via thought-experiment by putting myself in the circumstances another is facing and feeling the emotions evoked. For whatever reason, this activity usually puts me in the same place as the other person. The major difference is that this is not instinctual, but rather a skill to be developed.
Getting it to shut up can sometimes be a problem, however.

Your point about weighing damage also makes sense...though I've noticed that I tend to have a higher pain tolerance than most, and that may affect how I weigh such things.
 

Priam

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Your point about weighing damage also makes sense...though I've noticed that I tend to have a higher pain tolerance than most, and that may affect how I weigh such things.

On the flipside, ability to tolerate pain does not make such pain justified. Why own such burdens just because others thrust them on you? Sometimes, to be good friends, we have to absorb the suffering of others', but I think I tend to believe those circumstances are more frequent than is really the case. There are many times when being a good person means actively reflecting and rejecting the ideas and hurtful emotions, because just as much as we don't need that bullshit, the person who refuses to own does. Sometimes, as hard as it may seem, people need pain to grow in themselves... and we have to inflict it.
 

htb

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htb, nice phrase, "stillborn romance". Do you write?
Yes, and in fact I now get paid to do it. The phrase is a euphemism, I suppose.

I think what you're referring to is a retreat effect. It is not that they've failed to grasp what you've said and it is off their maps hence they do not know how to act. I think it is precisely because they sense a certain danger in where you're going, that they retreat. Perhaps, a protection of pride/dignity, to think through first vs falling into the weakness of betraying their emotions.
In part, but I can't discount the INTP's sudden loss at communication. Word choice became simple, and not artful but vague. A look at personal writing forwarded by intermediaries confirmed this as guileless; so I've always interpreted it as a debilitating unfamiliarity. And, too, I have never seen this behavior in any other type. Even ISTPs have an intuition for human behavior.

The trouble has, of course, been invited by way of me, myself, trying to make more of an INTP than a competent specialist in a given field. Judging from experience, the resulting interaction warrants no more than such a relationship.
 

white

~dangerous curves ahead~
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Yes, and in fact I now get paid to do it. The phrase is a euphemism, I suppose.

Interesting that. INTJ/ENTJ(When the switch?) poets would be rare. Any chance of seeing your work?

In part, but I can't discount the INTP's sudden loss at communication. Word choice became simple, and not artful but vague. A look at personal writing forwarded by intermediaries confirmed this as guileless; so I've always interpreted it as a debilitating unfamiliarity. And, too, I have never seen this behavior in any other type. Even ISTPs have an intuition for human behavior.

I'd think the detachment of an INTP can come across as unfamiliarity and a lack of intuition on human behaviour. But a failure to act on an understanding does not mean a failure in understanding. Does that make sense?

I'd think they understand humans on a theoretical level deeply, that would be the intellectual empathy Priam speaks of. But they are easily overwhelmed by emotions and an inability to express it, unless within a secure zone. The inability to gauge emotional distances is the hardest part to overcome, to me, personally, in dealing with an INTP.

The vagueness is that to me. Uncertainty how to proceed, and a keeping of options open while they try to process the information.

The trouble has, of course, been invited by way of me, myself, trying to make more of an INTP than a competent specialist in a given field. Judging from experience, the resulting interaction warrants no more than such a relationship.

I think I lost you here?
 

htb

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Interesting that. INTJ/ENTJ(When the switch?) poets would be rare. Any chance of seeing your work?
Maverick pointed out the ongoing discrepancy after I posted results of a recent self-administered test, and I had been considering the change, so I carried it out. I don't care much for poetry, but you can begin a general review of my work by following the link on my profile.

The vagueness is that to me. Uncertainty how to proceed, and a keeping of options open while they try to process the information.
Yes. If that's what this is, it's more of IxxPs' inclinations that I would rather not contend with on a personal or dependent level.

I think I lost you here?
I was assuming blame for contending, as noted above, anyway.
 

alcea rosea

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Yes. I think people get confused about INTPs in this area, so I'd like to explain "intellectual empathy" and see if it resonates with any others out there or if I'm just an outlier. I deeply empathize with others, but what makes it different from INFP is it is a thinking connection, rather than a feeling. I acheive empathy via thought-experiment by putting myself in the circumstances another is facing and feeling the emotions evoked. For whatever reason, this activity usually puts me in the same place as the other person. The major difference is that this is not instinctual, but rather a skill to be developed.

So you rationalize empathy. ;)
 
R

RDF

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Really great thread. You guys are providing some great insight for us Feelers into how INTPs deal with emotions. :nice:
 

Totenkindly

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This shows two different INTP perspectives. One of them has little self-respect and will do what's asked of them to maintain stability and get what they want for the moment, and another seems more careful about what they'll tolerate from others and what they won't.

I do not even know if it's two different types.

The common denominator between the two is "autonomy" -- freedom to do and get what I want most. To keep the life I want, if I don't think I can get it on my own, I am willing to make concessions... knowing at any time that I can walk. But if I think I can get what I want and don't need to comply with what is requested of me, I will walk.

INTPs generally do not like the emotional confrontation that comes with walking and will range from indifference (finding it just bothersome) to avoidance (finding it emotionally unsettling)... so they usually try to avoid making scene when they walk out.

But it is all calculated: Do I get what I want if I do this, and is it worth the cost to me?

We were settling a stillborn romance -- the discussion my initiative, of course -- and I defended an acerbic statement I'd made in front of others. She thought I was still angry. I said I wasn't; and as if she were reformatting a disk, or replacing a link to a cascading style sheet, she replied, "then I'll no longer assume you're acting out of a grudge." Damnedest thing.

lol... yup.

What is funny is that I just cannot get my mind around how odd it looks to others. I know that the types are all different... but it's so simple: If you provide information that I can trust, then I just accept it and update the databanks. Emotions can be boxed up and just set aside, because they are attached to the data rather than living as things with their own lives. So when the data is updated, any emotions attached are updated as well.

I just did it recently. I thought someone was mad at me, and that upset me, and when I asked them about it and they said we were fine, I was like, "well, okay," because I had felt out the comment and accepted it as true and that's the end of it. If you tell me what your motivations were and I feel there is no inconsistency there (i.e., I can believe you), then I just go with it.

I wonder which types are best at holding grudges.
 

Priam

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So you rationalize empathy. ;)

Yes, pretty much. I feel like the difference is not one of end result, but rather road to acheive it, and I often feel disdained by feelers because somehow I'm doing it in an "unnatural" or "freaky" way. One reason why I don't disclose my inner workings in public is exactly the sort of judgementalism that I feel from some posts on this board, the sense that I can not be anything but a freakish, disconnected robot. If I engage my emotions around others, empathize and reach out, somehow I'm doing it in an "inappropriate" manner, but if I shut them down then somehow I'm this cold, unfeeling android who has no redeeming value except in my "narrow" skillset.

To take an excellent movie out of context, I've decided to say "I'm a human being, goddammit! My life, my way of doing things has value!", but it still hurts every time I have to fight this meme.

Priam, the "I'm mad as hell and I don't have to take this anymore!" INTP
 
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