[NT] Who's more close-minded: NTJs or NTPS?

[Zarathustra]

INTP's with their Ti only know what they know, and don't make "I don't know" statements very often, which I'd suggest is Ni envy. Most ENTJ's are business exec's and they only care about people listening to them and their business plan, and can have difficulty thinking of anything else...more tunnel vision than "closemindedness", whereas I'd never peg an ENTP for being closeminded, they never finish anything....nothing is ever closed....

I agree with you to a great extent, although ENTPs can get very stuck in their Ti model being correct (just like an INTP), and INTJs can get very "no, this is what actually works" similarly to an ENTJ.

I do agree, however, that it tends to be each types' iNtuition that enables them to be more flexible with their "models", and to consider other views/positions/opinions that are not necessarily their own.

 

[Paisley]

I agree with you to a great extent, although ENTPs can get very stuck in their Ti model being correct (just like an INTP), and INTJs can get very "no, this is what actually works" similarly to an ENTJ.

I do agree, however, that it tends to be each types' iNtuition that enables them to be more flexible with their "models", and to consider other views/positions/opinions that are not necessarily their own.

Which boils down to humility towards the subject matter and how they present the information as to what is and what is not, which is a feeling function, which they don't have, which makes them all a bunch of closeminded self righteous bastards! heavy on the sarcasm today....kidding, but I really do think it's a completely subjective question pitting those functions against each other without any criteria as to what one is closeminded about.

 

[Zarathustra]

Which boils down to humility towards the subject matter and how they present the information as to what is and what is not, which is a feeling function, which they don't have, which makes them all a bunch of closeminded self righteous bastards! heavy on the sarcasm today....kidding, but I really do think it's a completely subjective question pitting those functions against each other without any criteria as to what one is closeminded about.

You got the point!

 

[Zarathustra]

So, the point:

In my opinion, Ti-users tend to manifest their close-mindedness about whether or not something is logically coherent and consistent: their primary criteria for appreciating something is whether, within a system, it is logically consistent and valid, and can be proved as such.

Te-users, on the other hand, in my opinion, seem to me to care more about whether something is sound: does it actually apply? Not whether it can necessarily be logically proven (although, they are more than happy if it can be and is), but whether it actually represents/connects with reality, and thus works.

In my opinion, soundness is vastly more important than logical proof.

I welcome logical proof, but I need not possess it in order to induce whether something is actually sound.

Why do I need to obsess over whether something is proven, when my intuition is right the vast majority of the time?

(Obviously, my Te bias is pouring through here, but I do think this is the case, and I'd gladly welcome a refutation of my argument.)

 

[Paisley]

What's kinda scary about INTJ's (Study Ni and comparative analysis Te) is when they make Ni leaps that are completely wrong because of a lack of Ti, and even worse for INTP's (detail Ti and application Ne) trying to make an Ni leap with just Ti facts, that becomes extremely embarassing for both when trying to save face. They all have areas of closemindedness, or like on IT Crowd last night, "We all have a blind spot", but I agree with you Zarathustra, that my Ni doesn't need the minutia of a proof either, to tell me that what I'm thinking is sound.

 

[Zarathustra]

What's kinda scary about INTJ's (Study Ni and comparative analysis Te) is when they make Ni leaps that are completely wrong because of a lack of Ti.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Zarathustra]

What's kinda scary about INTJ's (Study Ni and comparative analysis Te) is when they make Ni leaps that are completely wrong because of a lack of Ti, and even worse for INTP's (detail Ti and application Ne) trying to make an Ni leap with just Ti facts, that becomes extremely embarassing for both when trying to save face. They all have areas of closemindedness, or like on IT Crowd last night, "We all have a blind spot", but I agree with you Zarathustra, that my Ni doesn't need the minutia of a proof either, to tell me that what I'm thinking is sound.

I have to say, though, an INFJ making complaints about INTJ's lacking Ti and INTP's lacking Ni is rather circumspect...

 

[Paisley]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I have an INTJ buddy that's constantly not making the right leap, and it's hilarious. "From the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks" is the issue.

 

[Zarathustra]

I have an INTJ buddy that's constantly not making the right leap, and it's hilarious. "From the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks" is the issue.

But on what basis do you judge whether or not it's the right leap?

Your own external judging function: Fe?

Which is not to say that INTJs, or any Ni-dom, for that matter, can't have the tendency to make the "wrong leap"...

I think maturing into a healthy Ni-dom is largely a matter of learning to discern which "leaps" should be listened to, and which should be shelved.

 

[Paisley]

I have to say, though, an INFJ making complaints about INTJ's lacking Ti and INTP's lacking Ni is rather circumspect...

You must know nothing of INFJ's, we're paradoxes and contradictions! By the statistics alone, I shouldn't even exist.

 

[Valiant]

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded"

- Warhammer

 

[Paisley]

But on what basis do you judge whether or not it's the right leap?

Your own external judging function: Fe?

I have a powerful tertiary Ti.

 

[Zarathustra]

You must know nothing of INFJ's, we're paradoxes and contradictions! By the statistics alone, I shouldn't even exist.

I'm not sure if you quite got my point...

I was implying that you were engaging in your own type-bias...

I.e., you were pointing out the "blind spots" of others by pointing to the functions that you possess and they "lack".

I have a powerful tertiary Ti.

And, as such, how do you know that this is not simply misleading you with regards to the INTJ's leaps?

Maybe the criteria for judgment you are using is simply different, and possibly incorrect for his Ni leaps?

Once again, caveat:

Which is not to say that INTJs, or any Ni-dom for that matter, can't have the tendency to make the "wrong leap"...

I think maturing into a healthy Ni-dom is largely a matter of learning to discern which "leaps" should be listened to, and which should be shelved.

 

[Paisley]

I'm not sure if you quite got my point...

I was implying that you were engaged in your own type-bias...

I.e., you were pointing out the "blind spots" of others by pointing to the functions that you possess.



And, as such, how do you know that this is not simply misleading you with regards to the INTJ's leaps?

Maybe the criteria for judgment you are using is simply different, and possibly incorrect for his Ni leaps?

I recognize that you were pointing out my own blind spots, and I deflected said suggestion by pointing out my own ineffability dismisses said claim. (I was being funny)

With regards to my INTJ buddy, in these specific instances, he was corrected a second later, and felt like a total idiot. As with my older sister, who's an INTJ, she doesn't make 'leaps' so much as 'hints' towards the right answer. Again, humility towards the subject matter is key, which is independent of type.

 

[Zarathustra]

I recognize that you were pointing out my own blind spots, and I deflected said suggestion by pointing out my own ineffability dismisses said claim.

Spoken like a true Ni dom.

With regards to my INTJ buddy, in these specific instances, he was corrected a second later, and felt like a total idiot. As with my older sister, who's an INTJ, she doesn't make 'leaps' so much as 'hints' towards the right answer. Again, humility towards the subject matter is key, which is independent of type.

Agreed.

I think the humility is the ability to consider that one's "leaps" may not be true.

Which, in my opinion, is very close to the definition of critical thinking, the hallmark of open-mindedness.

 

[fecaleagle]

Based on the type descriptions you would think INTJs should be more close-minded than INTPs, but nearly all of the INTPs that I know are more close-minded than the INTJs I know. I guess it comes down to how developed their functions are, among other things. An immature INTJ who uses Ni almost exclusively while ignoring Te can be pretty close-minded (I've only met a few...I think I used to do that when I was a kid though). Of course we're all prone to do that every now and then, but for some it's extreme. For the INTP, I think the source of the close-mindedness is the lower level of confidence in their thoughts and beliefs (maybe because their dominant Ti is a perceiving function coupled with their Ne always pondering the what ifs). Thus some put up a wall of overconfidence and close-mindedness in order to protect themselves from that insecurity. So the level of close-minded just depends on a bunch of factors like these....so when an INTJ seems close-minded it is because of overconfidence and when an INTP does it is because of underconfidence. All in all I would say it totally depends on the person. It's funny how INTx are seen by others by being the most close-minded, where in fact I think we are among the most open-minded of all types (assuming a fully healthy model of each type).

 

[Paisley]

Like that segment on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart back in the day between Stephen Colbert and Steve Carell called "Even Stevens" where they had to fight opposing viewpoints no matter what, and always had to disagree with each other.

YouTube - Even Stevphen Islam vs Christianity

Hysterical. Again, it's how you interact, how you agree and disagree with someone and admit what you don't know. That's all.

 

[fecaleagle]

Again, it's how you interact, how you agree and disagree with someone and admit what you don't know. That's all.

Hmm I don't know about using interaction to judge something like this. Many times, if someone convinces me that I am wrong (yes it does happen every now and then ), I fully accept it in my mind and modify my understanding accordingly, but I don't even let them know that I am doing this. I can forget to give them that reassurance that they are looking for (damn Fe!), so in a case like that my open-mindedness wouldn't be apparent. It seems to me that you're describing open-mindedness as in how you are perceived by others rather than how you truly are.

 

[Paisley]

Hmm I don't know about using interaction to judge something like this. Many times, if someone convinces me that I am wrong (yes it does happen every now and then ), I fully accept it in my mind and modify my understanding accordingly, but I don't even let them know that I am doing this. I can forget to give them that reassurance that they are looking for (damn Fe!), so in a case like that my open-mindedness wouldn't be apparent. It seems to me that you're describing open-mindedness as in how you are perceived by others rather than how you truly are.

Well, how you're perceived is crucial in being considered closeminded, as no one thinks they are closeminded until someone else tells them. Closemindedness is a perception from others not of yourself, and not about facts, because you can have all the right facts and see both sides of the argument and have taken a sound logical or emotional position, but like I said with my comment on Even Stepvhens, it's all about how that knowledge comes across to others, as either rigid or understanding, as to merit the label of being closeminded.

Make sense? Like, when someone tells you that it's closeminded to think that 2+2=3, you don't immediately change your perspective, you are either rigid and say NO or understanding and say, "well, what leads you to that conclusion?". Get it?

 

[fecaleagle]

Well, how you're perceived is crucial in being considered closeminded, as no one thinks they are closeminded until someone else tells them. Closemindedness is a perception from others not of yourself, and not about facts, because you can have all the right facts and see both sides of the argument and have taken a sound logical or emotional position, but like I said with my comment on Even Stepvhens, it's all about how that knowledge comes across to others, as either rigid or understanding, as to merit the label of being closeminded.

Make sense? Like, when someone tells you that it's closeminded to think that 2+2=3, you don't immediately change your perspective, you are either rigid and say NO or understanding and say, "well, what leads you to that conclusion?". Get it?

I see what you're saying, and while it can be beneficial to make one's open-mindedness apparent to others, I don't agree with your statement that how you are perceived is crucial in being either open or close minded. I think a person can come to that conclusion about themselves if they are objective enough without anyone telling them either way. In fact, I think there can be a huge disparity between being open-minded and being perceived as open-minded. Some people can fake receptiveness to others' ideas and beliefs while rigidly clinging onto their own beliefs on the inside. These people would be seen as open-minded, yet they are truly close-minded. While another person can be really open to suggestions yet have too much pride to admit it others.

The definition of close-mindedness is being "Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas"..."not ready to receive to new ideas"...a person can be very tolerant and receptive of others' opinions, and by definition not be close-minded. Conveying that tolerance doesn't make that person any more open-minded.

At least that's how I see it. But I am glad to see what a person like you (with a presumably strong Fe) sees something like this.