[INTP] Things that can hinder INTP's from being liked

[onemoretime]

My hostile arrogance aside (it's probably up to others to confirm or deny that, since I imagine I'm biased), I'm gonna say that's a little hypocritical from the guy who has been yelling people are arrogant again and again, called the OP "prickish", and then insulted me to my face several times, essentially refuting my views on proper small talk etiquette (Seinfeldian though it may be) exclusively via ad hominem attacks. Maybe I've been hyperbolic, but I haven't straight up insulted people, much less multiple people.

Try reading the thread again, sparky. I didn't insult anyone until you decided to unleash your particular brand of pomposity on the good people here.

See, here's the funny thing - ad hominem is entirely appropriate here, because were talking about social situations and behavior. There isn't going to be a logical reason why you're sounding like an arrogant ass... you're just sounding like one, and yeah, I'm gonna call you out on it. What's more, I'm not going to be nice about it, because the consistent pattern so far is that people being nice about it doesn't get through to you.

Notice, for one, that you're interpreting my criticisms of behavior as attacks on character. Did I say he was "prickish" or did I say that his responses were? Now, he might be the nicest guy on the planet 23.75 hours a day, but you know, for those 15 minutes, his actions corresponded with that of a jerk. Nothing wrong with pointing that out. And yet, you acted as if I called him a Nazi or something.

Then you come at me with the oh-so-typical "the rest of the world are just a bunch of mindless cretins, why should I debase myself to their petty tittering?" of high school kids with a lot of brains but not so many friends. There's a reason for this - you're not as special as you think. Plenty of people smarter than you who have lived, plenty who will live after you're gone. However, the only ones you have are the ones you're with right now, and like it or not, you need them. So do them a favor, and treat them like human beings with actual feelings and desires that are equal to your own, and not like defective sources of amusement? K?

 

[onemoretime]

"Hey guess what? I picked my nose last night for 15 minutes before I went to bed. It was awesome. You should have been there. Some were green and crusty, some were bloody. It was a real hoot. Now if I can just somehow convince the city that the accumulation of "stuff" that came out of my nose is worth 5 dollars, I could give it to them in leiu of them raising my bill by 5 dollars every month. Whadduya think about that?"

I mean, I want to be able to be nice in these situations. I joke about it cuz it sometimes seems that meaningless, but I need to get to the point to where I'm like, "Dude, that's great! Let's go to your place, pick up the boogers, take them down to the city and see what the mayor will offer you for them. There's potential here! And I like the way you think! A true entreprenerial spirit."

Aww, that one's easy - "dude, you're a sick fuck" with a chuckle. It's the truth, ain't it?

 

[strychnine]

Only they turn out to be a habitual small-talker who will keep regurgitating minutia of their lives until you find a means of escape.

Oh my god. That is so annoying. I know a few people that do this even after we have known each other for about a year now. I don't know how anyone can only talk about how they ate pizza last night, and worse think that other people actually give a shit about it. I'm thinking, "So? Are we seriously talking about this?" but the other person looks so interested.

 

[Fidelia]

I think onemoretime made a good point. These annoying little things are sort of how a lot of people do try to connect to other people. Because he doesn't know you well, he isn't bringing up something terribly personal. The whole point of small talk is to get eye contact, a smile and a nod so that you can get on with the business at hand or so that you can deepen the relationship in some way or get a go ahead to talk. By doing what you did, you are saying, "Don't waste my time. You are not worth talking to". That's fine if that's your intended message.

If it's not though, you may need to look at small talk in a different way. It's not really there for what the content of it is. It's there as a social device (which you don't consider important, but a lot of people really do). In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you say at all, just so long as you are basically agreeable and supportive. You unfortunately are likely to be stuck with some element of this even from a spouse or child in the future, so learning to respond in some way that makes the other person feel supported is probably worth your while even if this guy doesn't matter at all to you. You can still disengage while remaining polite by making a wrap it up kind of statement or by offering something different to discuss that he may be able to switch to.

 

[Coriolis]

Would I actually have told someone off for sharing such a pointless thing? No. It would probably actually go:

Person: [Insert exceedingly banal problem]
Me: Oh, that sucks.
Me, in my head: Why are you telling me this? Why do you think I want to discuss this thing, which is entirely boring and unrelated to me, with you, essentially a stranger?

Unless he very quickly changed the topic to something I could actually talk about, that's it. End of conversation. If he tried to press on with the same topic, I'd probably claim that I had to go or was in a hurry or something. No one has gained anything. The entire exchange was utterly pointless and a waste of time.

I'll talk to strangers, but if all they're talking about is how cute it is when their kitty Snookums, a cat I do not know nor will ever know, sneezes, then I am going to leave as quickly as possible because I am going to consider it a waste of time.

Yes, yes, yes! These are almost word-for-word the thoughts that run through my mind in similar situations. Recently a tree at the edge of my yard was knocked down in a storm. A neighbor lady wandered by while I was cleaning it up and asked, "did the storm do that?" I almost told her no, we had a troll attack during the night, but settled for a bland, "apparently". She moved on. Later, the neigbor across the street started in, while trimming his bushes:

Neighbor: You're getting that taken care of pretty quickly.
Coriolis: Yes. [thinking: What am I supposed to say to this? Why prolong the cleanup? I have other things to do.]
N: Do you know how old that tree was?
C: No [and much as I take an interest in the vegetation on my property, I have other priorities right now.]
N: I counted 70 rings on one of those big logs.
C: I see. [Just how much interest does this fellow have in my defunct tree? Maybe I should offer him a piece, then he can repeat his count at leisure to make sure it was accurate . . . ]

WHY can't these folks just leave me to clean up my yard in peace? This sort of thing truly drives me round the bend. Now, if a neighbor came by needing something, perhaps even wanting some of the wood, I would be very attentive to them since their interruption would have a purpose.

The whole point of small talk is to get eye contact, a smile and a nod so that you can get on with the business at hand or so that you can deepen the relationship in some way or get a go ahead to talk. By doing what you did, you are saying, "Don't waste my time. You are not worth talking to". That's fine if that's your intended message.

For me, the context plays a big role. When I am engaged in some task or project and trying to get it done efficiently and quickly, that is the business at hand, and chatting with neighbors about topics that I find petty and uninteresting is a much lower priority. The neighbor may be worth talking to, but not then and there about that. If I am leisurely perusing the landscaping and not engaged in anything particular, I am more tolerant of interruption and more receptive to overtures like the above.

 

[INTPness]

you're not as special as you think. Plenty of people smarter than you who have lived, plenty who will live after you're gone. However, the only ones you have are the ones you're with right now, and like it or not, you need them. So do them a favor, and treat them like human beings with actual feelings and desires that are equal to your own, and not like defective sources of amusement? K?

I appreciate your input, onemoretime. I really do. The only thing I can say in response to this part of your post (and I don't disagree with it), is that I've already admitted that I acted like a jerk. You're simply re-hashing this fact. You're "re-pointing" the finger. Me not caring about his problems has already been established.

As an ENTP yourself, has anyone ever talked about things that bored you to tears? And did you ever react a little too quickly and a little too harshly? I see ENTP's on here all the time saying stuff like, "I tend to hurt people's feelings by making fun of them." "I make jokes about people and they don't like me because of it."

I mean, it's the same thing, right? Lack of sensitivity? But, I guess we could always say that those are the "unhealthy" ENTP's saying that. A "healthy" ENTP wouldn't do that. I was a jerk. I want to be less of a jerk. That's the whole point of the thread. Saying, "you were a jerk" all over again does nothing here.

 

[Fidelia]

Is there anyway you can redirect them or make it clear under which circumstances they could hope for a better reception? This sounds unpleasant for both parties.

Speaking of this subject, Prince Phillip was on a trip with Queen Elisabeth and was asked by some unimaginative official how their flight had been. The Prince said, "Have you ever ridden on a plane?" "Yes", they responded. "It was like that", he said. From the sounds of many of these conversations and the stories I've read about him, I wonder if he's an INTP.

 

[INTPness]

I think onemoretime made a good point. These annoying little things are sort of how a lot of people do try to connect to other people. Because he doesn't know you well, he isn't bringing up something terribly personal. The whole point of small talk is to get eye contact, a smile and a nod so that you can get on with the business at hand or so that you can deepen the relationship in some way or get a go ahead to talk. By doing what you did, you are saying, "Don't waste my time. You are not worth talking to". That's fine if that's your intended message.

If it's not though, you may need to look at small talk in a different way. It's not really there for what the content of it is. It's there as a social device (which you don't consider important, but a lot of people really do). In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you say at all, just so long as you are basically agreeable and supportive. You unfortunately are likely to be stuck with some element of this even from a spouse or child in the future, so learning to respond in some way that makes the other person feel supported is probably worth your while even if this guy doesn't matter at all to you. You can still disengage while remaining polite by making a wrap it up kind of statement or by offering something different to discuss that he may be able to switch to.

OK. This is good. :hi:

And yeah, the fact that I gave him that vibe of "I don't have time for you" is why I felt bad. My intent was not to make the guy feel bad or to turn another human being away. I do have some compassion, believe it or not. It's just that there's a lot of things going on in the course of a day (and I was busy at the time), and this stuff he was coming at me with seemed so very unimportant at the moment. But, you're right - it's a social device - a way of connecting. A "meeting place" so to speak. Then, things can take off from there and at least the guy feels understood to some extent. It's a bit of a challenge for the INTP I think. But, that was the whole point of my OP - I suck at it and my relationships with others suffer because of it. Therefore, I want to improve.

 

[onemoretime]

I appreciate your input, onemoretime. I really do. The only thing I can say in response to this part of your post (and I don't disagree with it), is that I've already admitted that I acted like a jerk. You're simply re-hashing this fact. You're "re-pointing" the finger. Me not caring about his problems has already been established.

As an ENTP yourself, has anyone ever talked about things that bored you to tears? And did you ever react a little too quickly and a little too harshly? I see ENTP's on here all the time saying stuff like, "I tend to hurt people's feelings by making fun of them." "I make jokes about people and they don't like me because of it."

I mean, it's the same thing, right? Lack of sensitivity? But, I guess we could always say that those are the "unhealthy" ENTP's saying that. A "healthy" ENTP wouldn't do that. I was a jerk. I want to be less of a jerk. That's the whole point of the thread. Saying, "you were a jerk" all over again does nothing here.

Sorry if it came across that way, but that wasn't directed at you. You're not trying to justify the behavior, so I don't think it's a bad thing.

Sure, I've been in those ridiculously boring conversations. And boring they remained while I tried to intellectualize them all the time. They became a lot more interesting when I finally figured out what fidelia was talking about - intellectualizing isn't the point! It's the empathy, and the good feelings that being there for someone engenders, that is the whole point of the affair.

You could see the guy talking about the lawn in purely analytical terms "well, he really doesn't have it as bad as he thinks", or think about it in emotional terms "wow, it seems like they're getting you in even the pettiest of places these days." For the booger comment, it's more like "hah, that's disgusting, but it sure would show them!" You see why the last two create a better response? You're saying to the other guy "hey, I'm on your side, and I want to see you be well."

This is at the core of what it means to be human. Unfortunately, xNTPs seem to have a big issue with "being human" for a long time... but we've got to get around that if we want to be healthy human beings with an integrated personality, rather than the disjointed one that leads to self-doubt.

 

[INTPness]

Speaking of this subject, Prince Phillip was on a trip with Queen Elisabeth and was asked by some unimaginative official how their flight had been. The Prince said, "Have you ever ridden on a plane?" "Yes", they responded. "It was like that", he said. From the sounds of many of these conversations and the stories I've read about him, I wonder if he's an INTP.

That's a funny response by the Prince, no?

 

[INTPness]

Sorry if it came across that way, but that wasn't directed at you. You're not trying to justify the behavior, so I don't think it's a bad thing.

Sure, I've been in those ridiculously boring conversations. And boring they remained while I tried to intellectualize them all the time. They became a lot more interesting when I finally figured out what fidelia was talking about - intellectualizing isn't the point! It's the empathy, and the good feelings that being there for someone engenders, that is the whole point of the affair.

You could see the guy talking about the lawn in purely analytical terms "well, he really doesn't have it as bad as he thinks", or think about it in emotional terms "wow, it seems like they're getting you in even the pettiest of places these days." For the booger comment, it's more like "hah, that's disgusting, but it sure would show them!" You see why the last two create a better response? You're saying to the other guy "hey, I'm on your side, and I want to see you be well."

This is at the core of what it means to be human. Unfortunately, xNTPs seem to have a big issue with "being human" for a long time... but we've got to get around that if we want to be healthy human beings with an integrated personality, rather than the disjointed one that leads to self-doubt.

OK, now this I understand! Good stuff. It probably doesn't make it any easier to actually make the small talk (for the INTP), but at least it provides good reasons to put forth the effort.

 

[ZPowers]

And yet, you acted as if I called him a Nazi or something.

Well, I said said you insulted him. I consider prickish an insult.

you're not as special as you think. Plenty of people smarter than you who have lived, plenty who will live after you're gone. However, the only ones you have are the ones you're with right now, and like it or not, you need them. So do them a favor, and treat them like human beings with actual feelings and desires that are equal to your own, and not like defective sources of amusement? K?

This is not too far off from my point, in a strange way. If you want to start a conversation with someone you don't really know, do so in a way that expresses interest in the other person and allows them to contribute equally to the conversation. The reason I don't start conversations or try not to over-dominate conversations with minor personal stories is exactly because they are not special. I sincerely doubt what you care what I ate for lunch this afternoon, and I totally understand why you don't care. So if someone I don't really know approaches me and talks about how great their lunch was for some amount of time, I get pretty tired of it pretty fast. Approaching someone implies an interest in that person, so express interest in THEM, don't just talk about yourself. If they're considerate, they'll return that expression of interest. In this way, equal desires and feelings, which you mentioned, can be equally regarded and expressed instead of one guy talking about himself and the other sort of just blankly tossing in the occasional "yeah".

I'm not totally sure where you get the sense that I consider myself insanely more important than the other person, perhaps I worded things poorly before. I just feel that when someone (someone I don't know, friends are obviously different because you have an invested interest in them already) approaches me and immediately launches into some story that I can't really do much but listen to, they aren't really respecting me as person either. If I did it to them, it would be rude and self-involved. If they do it to me, it's equally rude and self-involved. I'm not using a different scale for them than I do for me, though it is a scale constructed based on my own sense a values, values you may disagree with.

Retrospectively, the OP is probably not the best example of this peeve, though in that conversation I would have personally probably done little but say "oh" and "why?" a few times, and unless he changed the topic I'd eventually think up a reason to go or the conversation would end, since in that instance I'm more a placeholder for this one-sided conversation than an actual human being. It makes me feel like the other person doesn't really care about me, and my incentive to care back comes out stillborn.

Regardless, sorry to have offended you. It wasn't my intention. I was being slightly defensive at one point.

 

[Fidelia]

That's a funny response by the Prince, no?

Oh, it's quite satisfying to see people who are that quick on their feet at succinctly expressing what we all feel. The prince has been known to be rather outspoken on everything from Tom Jones to Scots to his boredom with visiting places like Canada!

I appreciate the fact that you recognize that your initial response could affect other people in a way that you don't intend, especially when there is no malice there even. I think it's a matter of looking for the reasons behind what people are saying and also thinking of more than one potential reason why it would pay for you to put in the effort required to developing what initially looks like a useless and inane skill. There is sometimes a tendancy with younger NTs to resent being disturbed from what they are ruminating about or working on, they want there to be a clear reason for everything that they are doing, they are fairly direct, and sometimes they write people off too quickly because they value different things. It can seem arrogant and argumentative and detached. Everyone is an expert in something. You can appreciate competency and the quest for knowledge. Try looking in every conversation for what that person is an expert on and then pump them for information. They'll be pleased to talk, there will be some point to the conversation, you'll learn something that may come in handy later and you get past the small talk fairly quickly. Everyone likes to feel like their interests and expertise are valued and they are glad if someone allows them to share what they know.

 

[Glycerine]

lol, that was awesome.

As an ENFJ, I would probably go:

Guy: blah blah blah blah
Me: yeah
Guy: *stupid comment about the lawn*
Me: That's too bad. Nice talking with you but I have to go "insert errand"

That's what I do when I don't really want to talk to someone.

Or if you are stranded:

Change the subject like:
Me: That's too bad. Anyways.... *insert some really boring subject* and then he will most likely leave you alone

Or just reply with one word answers to everything he says.

 

[tcda]

I love how everyone thinks they are "healthy" for their type. All those other people out there - (yeah them!) - they're the "unhealthy" ones.

We all have our hang-ups. To say otherwise is just silly. I'm a fully functional INTP. I get along fine in this world. But, like everyone else (whether they choose to admit it or not), I have things I'm still working on. Sometimes my disinterest in other people's minor problems causes me to come off like a jerk. I can see it on their faces. That is an area that sometimes causes a little bit of social trouble for me. And I have no problem pulling down the "I'm invincible and totally have life all figured out" curtain and talking about my issues. It is what it is. I have flaws that I'd like to improve on. And hopefully, that's one of the functions of this website, to talk to like-minded people (and people who are of different types as well) in order to improve and learn. That doesn't mean I'll suddenly start caring about the $5/month increase in water (as some people said, it's boring and fruitless), but it means I can do better when it comes to at least being a pleasant person to be around. I don't have to care about his $5/month increase, but if you asked the guy his opinion of me, it'd be cool if he said something like, "that INTP is a pretty decent guy" ---------> instead of, "that guy is a prick."

Because I was a prick in my conversation with the guy doesn't mean I have aspergers or that I'm "unhealthy" or even that I can't take a social cue. It just means I'm real. And that I have certain things I'm still working on.

I'm not even saying that anyone specifically said that I was unhealthy. It's just crazy how soon the word "unhealthy" starts popping up in these threads when someone didn't perform perfectly in some social situation. Who freaking does perform perfectly in every social situation? If you're xNTP, probably not you!

Uhhhh, anyone need help paying their water bill this month?

When somebody acts like a stereotype of their type, unable to behave "out of type" i.e. balanced, i.e. when they have not deeveloped their tert and inferior functions, I call that unhealthy. Just my opinion. If intps love being disliked and socially awkward the fine ignore my opinion.

But perhaps next time just make a thread praising yourself rather than under the pretext of asking for advice on a "problem"...?

 

[Glycerine]

When somebody acts like a stereotype of their type, unable to behave "out of type" i.e. balanced, i.e. when they have not deeveloped their tert and inferior functions, I call that unhealthy. Just my opinion. If intps love being disliked and socially awkward the fine ignore my opinion.

But perhaps next time just make a thread praising yourself rather than under the pretext of asking for advice on a "problem"...?

I agree w/ tcda. Using just a smidgen of Fe, there are nice and respectful to get the hell out of there.

I find Coriolis' post about the annoying neighbor quite amusing.

You could have just told the neighbor: I'm sorry but I really don't have the time to talk right now. I need to get my yard cleaned up.

If you say something like that, you will come off looking like the good guy and if the neighbor doesn't respect your wishes, he will come off looking the bad guy. As a result, MOST will honor your wishes. If not, then just flat out tell them because they disrespected you.

I thought what one INTP once told me rang true. As long you're typically agreeable and nice, people will generally respect you.

 

[INTPness]

When somebody acts like a stereotype of their type, unable to behave "out of type" i.e. balanced, i.e. when they have not deeveloped their tert and inferior functions, I call that unhealthy. Just my opinion. If intps love being disliked and socially awkward the fine ignore my opinion.

I'm sure we all act like the "stereotype" of our type a good amount of the time - that's where the stereotypes come from in the first place - because that's how we tend to act. And I'm also pretty sure that a good chunk of people (all?) don't always make the proper adjustment (by behaving "out of type" when it's called for). There will be times when we don't do it. If you're the one guy who doesn't do that, then I want to come watch, observe, and take notes. So, if healthy = always knowing when to act out of type when the situation calls for it, then I still make the mistake and I guess I can't be considered healthy. Even when I'm 65 years old and Si and Fe are (hopefully) fully developed, I'm sure I'll still make the mistake from time to time.

But perhaps next time just make a thread praising yourself rather than under the pretext of asking for advice on a "problem"...?

If you check back to the first page of the thread, all I was looking to do was present an issue that I personally have from time to time and I wanted to know what problems other INTP's have might have that cause alienation from others (whether they be small or large issues). Because I figure that other people of my type have similar struggles. That was all I was looking for. Maybe I worded things wrong in my OP, I don't know. I was just wondering what things cause INTP's to struggle with other people. Surely, any good INTP worth his salt, who is now fully matured (Si and Fe work like a gem - every single time) would be able to give good advice because he would have already went through the process that I'm apparently still going through: maturation of the inferior funtion.

So, to the INTP's who have Fe all figured out and who are fully healthy INTP's, you guys probably have some good, sound advice for the younger, more immature INTP's. Diplomatic, good advice. Not just like, "Ha ha. What an idiot! His Fe still isn't fully developed! What an unhealthy idiot! I'll criticize him again for the things he already admitted he did wrong. I used to be just like him when I was a young lad with inferior Fe, but instead of giving him advice on how I got through it, I'll just tell him he's unhealthy."

Who knows. I'm over it. Maybe I'll go over to the gentleman's house this afternoon with a couple of cold sodas and shoot the breeze with him on his front porch. And apologize for brushing him off the other day. Fe isn't completely non-existent in me. It's just a work in progress, that's all.

 

[Coriolis]

There is sometimes a tendancy with younger NTs to resent being disturbed from what they are ruminating about or working on, they want there to be a clear reason for everything that they are doing, they are fairly direct, and sometimes they write people off too quickly because they value different things. It can seem arrogant and argumentative and detached. Everyone is an expert in something. You can appreciate competency and the quest for knowledge. Try looking in every conversation for what that person is an expert on and then pump them for information. They'll be pleased to talk, there will be some point to the conversation, you'll learn something that may come in handy later and you get past the small talk fairly quickly. Everyone likes to feel like their interests and expertise are valued and they are glad if someone allows them to share what they know.

Very insightful. The highlighted describes me and my reactions quite well. I rarely argue in such situations (I avoid getting that engaged in the conversation), but I'm sure I come off as detached. I also realize I have exploited the underlined strategy, without recognizing it as such. You are quite correct about (almost) everyone having special expertise or even just interests. I sometimes run across this unexpectedly in a conversation, and as you suggest, I take this ball and run with it. I really am willing to talk to almost anyone, provided they are willing to leave small talk behind, and quickly.

 

[Salomé]

Sometimes my disinterest in other people's minor problems causes me to come off like a jerk. I can see it on their faces. That is an area that sometimes causes a little bit of social trouble for me. And I have no problem pulling down the "I'm invincible and totally have life all figured out" curtain and talking about my issues.

Know what you are doing here, what is really unhealthy?
You are devaluing yourself. You are suggesting that your comfort in a social situation is less important than the other person's. Why are you doing that?
Because 1) you buy into all the crap about "what is unlikeable about INTPs"
2) you actually have more consideration for others than the average person.
Unless you are a servile doormat 24*7, some people are going to dislike you (even if you are, some will dislike you for that). You can't please all of the people.

I see no evidence of your being a jerk in the OP. Either you've phrased it more innocuously than it actually went down, or you are being too hard on yourself.
If anyone needs to question themselves, it's "guy". I think he was being a selfish jerk. Moaning about the $5 a month it costs to water his lawn when you've just told him that your hours have been cut. He turned the conversation confrontational, he made the atmosphere unpleasant. Reread it, and try being a bit kinder to yourself. Extreme self-criticism is a common fault of INTPs. This is your first problem.
We seem to think we are ultimately responsible for everything in our environment. That if we can perfect ourselves we can perfect all our interactions. It's a kind of inverted arrogance.

I don't have to care about his $5/month increase, but if you asked the guy his opinion of me, it'd be cool if he said something like, "that INTP is a pretty decent guy" ---------> instead of, "that guy is a prick."

This is your second. If his conclusion from that exchange is that you are a prick, then there is something wrong with him, not you. Why do you care what he thinks of you? If you have to be disingenuous in order to attain his good opinion, is it worth it? And can you be sure that he has formed such a negative opinion? Perhaps you are overreacting?

Because I was a prick in my conversation with the guy

You weren't. Stop beating yourself up, because, see what happens? All these actual, 24-carat jerks join in to help you. There is a disturbing masochism to all these come-hate-on-INTs threads.

Eh, people are reacting far too strongly to the OP's story, IMO. Sure, we all have to play along and listen to people's boring stories. I end up doing that a LOT. I think it's okay to occasionally react truthfully to the fact that lawn guy is being a little ridiculous complaining about something that is ultimately not that big a deal. Sometimes people don't realize how they're coming across, and won't unless people react honestly to them (using humor helps). How come other people get to bore us, and we have to pretend they don't?

Once again, the voice of wisdom and balance.

Reason #1. Playing devil's advocate (or challenging everything that another person says):

It really depends on your motives for challenging - are you trying to present a more reasonable way of thinking about a problem, or are you just looking for an argument?
I'm challenging your perceptions here, but I do so with good intentions, not because of silly oneupmanship or contrariness. The ability to question everything and produce clear, reasoned arguments rather than nodding along like a toy dog is a gift. Unfortunately, that same critical eye turned inwards to negative rumination can be a curse.

Real conversation I had recently:
Guy: Hey, we got some rain lately!
INTP: Yep!
Guy: I won't have to water my lawn for a while now.
INTP: Oh?!
Guy: Well, I don't water it anyways because the water in this town is so expensive. If it doesn't rain, I just let my lawn die.
INTP: Water? Expensive?
Guy: Heck yes it's expensive.
INTP: How expensive could it really be?
Guy: Well, let's just say that 2 summers ago I didn't water my lawn very often. Then last summer I decided to water it to keep it green and I compared my bills from the previous summer and my bills were about $5 more per month! Just to water my lawn occasionally!
INTP: So 5 bucks is expensive?
Guy: Well, yeah! How would you like to find out that your hours at work are going to be cut and that you'd be making less money from now on?
INTP: Well, my hours just did get cut last week, but all I'm saying is that it would seem to me that if keeping your lawn green is something that's important to someone, then $5 per month would be well worth it.

At this point, the guy clearly seemed frustrated. I felt kind of bad as we parted ways, but I'm not sure what other approach I could have taken.

It's a little bit like the frustration that people felt after a conversation with Socrates. When you challenge someone's flawed assumptions they don't always take it with good grace. Most people just want to have their ears tickled. Do you want to be a populist ear-tickler or do you want to be true to yourself? That is the question.

Why did you feel bad? What were your motives for saying what you did? Perhaps you were frustrated with the tone of the conversation and wanted to passive-aggressively turn that frustration back on its source? That is something INTPs have a habit of doing. That would be worth feeling bad about. But if you were sincere, then I don't see the problem.

I just flat out disagree with him and I wasn't mean about it, I just stated my case. 5 bucks isn't worth moaning about. And if it is, then just don't water your lawn. End of story. I almost wanted to say, "Keep watering your lawn. I'll send you 5 bucks every month in the mail." Is the cynicism and truthfulness downright rude? Arghhhh!!!

If you know you were not mean, then why all the agonizing? The fact that you didn't say what you wanted to say, demonstrates that you are able to check yourself, that you aren't walking around making needlessly offensive, prickish statements (which that certainly would have been).

Here are some examples of people who aren't able to check themselves:

Yes, of course that's annoying. Do you have Asperger's or something?

^ Yeah, this. Challenge something if it makes sense to challenge....don't challenge it without understanding the position first, just for the sake of.

I think the guy might have been frustrated because it seems that you were being contrarian just for the sake of, only to, at the end, point out the same conclusion he told you at the beginning of the conversation. It shows that you weren't truly listening to him, and/or understanding what he was saying. And that you were just trying to be smart with him (for an ego boost?).

It's like you basically repeating his original sentiment, in a way that makes it seem as if you had this insight while he didn't. Which truly wasn't the case.

I have had a few conversations with some INTPs where similar things happen. Without truly understanding what I'm trying to say, they question/oppose, only to state the same conclusion that I started off with, in a manner that seems as if they're telling me something new/insightful or different than what I was originally saying - which isn't the case. They just, in a roundabout, time-consuming way, came back to my original point. Frustrating.

You actually did nothing of the kind. She seems to be describing herself.
Here's another example:

Nah, more like "hey, he's being exactly the kind of needlessly hostile, arrogant ass that we've been talking about the entire thread, what a good demonstration"

Their psots in this thread are mostly indistinguishable from unhealthy intp's. which is quite funny because that is the target of their "advice" (which is really just an attempt to have an *argument* for the sake of it, which ironically is one of the very behaviours being criticised lololol haha).

Yes, well, they don't call it projection for nothing.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Listen to her ^ and Tallulah. They know what they're saying.