• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] Do NTs believe in souls?

VYCanisMajoris

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
39
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
897?
I'm asking here cause i'm curious how many NTs will agree with me on a topic that not many people seem to agree with me on.

Let me be clear and start by saying that i'm not speaking in any way of "Soul" as in the MUSIC or your personality that is the product of your time and experiences on Earth as well as passed down genetically from your parents. I am not talking about THE SOUL in that sense at all. I am talking about the SOUL as in something that can exist without your body.

I'm an agnostic I always have been. Well, actually when I was a kid and my wonderful grandma was my Sunday school teacher I was actually... an Atheist. I never had the heart to tell her I thought the whole thing sounded as ridiculous as Santa Claus. And I never did throughout her whole life.

I call myself an Agnostic now because I follow the definition of atheism as one who DENIES the existence of a god and agnostic as one who DOUBTS the existence of a god. And personally I don't know anything for sure besides what I had for breakfast.... and I quite like it that way because that means that I have more to learn about in the universe. In many ways I view Atheism as bad as religion. I do feel that humans have the capacity and will one day paint a pretty accurate picture of what the universe actually is. I do think religious views make it harder for humans to grow and learn as a species and i'm glad our society is slowly waking up from this.
Anyway, I just felt my perspective on religion might be necessary to explain so that my question here might not be considered divisive.

THE MEAT
For me, like many people, growing up the idea of a SOUL was always just a given... It wasn't really questioned. I questioned God but the idea of a SOUL seemed more difficult to disbelieve. However, whenever I've actually thought about it i've realized. There really is just as much proof in God as there is in the soul..read: NONE. There is no proof so why do most people believe in it? There seems to be a bit of a stigma in our society where if you believe in having a SOUL then you are a Spiritual person, a warmer person a caring person. It's very similar to the stigma of being religious that is slowly dimming. When I tell people that I don't believe I have a soul. In the literal sense of those words. I am saying I believe I am a lifeless, uncharismatic person. Which actually isn't true at all. Basically, it isn't cool to not have a soul, to be soulless. Thus why you don't often hear people talking about it. I personally don't give a fuck. Thus, why i'm speaking of it here.

What i've come to believe of "the soul". Is that it is definitely very connected to the idea of religion. It's no coincidence they have such similarities. Here is my very rough estimation of how the whole thing came to be and WHY so many people believe in the soul today. Remember, this is just my opinion.

-Our ancestors lived their lives and had no idea what would happen themselves and their loved ones after they died.
-Humans, all life, by nature, FEAR death. Humans FEAR what they don't understand. Ever notice that? People literally FEAR things they don't know or understand. Gay people, heavy metal music, rap music, Windows, Macintosh. Whatever it may be. The ultimate unknown though is DEATH.
-So our ancestors invented an idea that would ease that fear. That idea was, THE SOUL. Notice that Many, many almost ALL religions incorporate a similar idea into their religion. With zero proof of it.
To me this fear of death is actually what gave rise to the idea of the soul... after the idea of the SOUL they needed to invent something that EXPLAINED it. Each tribe of our ancestors started concocting their own views of that. This was RELIGION. A mythology created to explain and make sense of the idea of the soul. Such as: Where does my SOUL go when my body dies? Oh, it goes to a place called heaven where everything is peaches and cream. Your SOUL goes to that farm where Rover is and it stays there with Rover for all eternity. Your SOUL is moved forward or backward through time and put into a new body or a new type of animal depending how pleasant you were here on Earth. Your soul stays here on Earth wandering aimlessly trying to resolve unfinished tasks, solve crimes committed against you or your family. Usually though, the outcome of where your soul goes (in most mythologies of the soul) is dependent on your actions here on Earth.
-There's no wonder that the idea of God is questioned so much because its FOUNDATION is based off of something which never existed.

So what about the unexplained? What about it? The universe is a vast and amazing place most of which we know nothing about. There is bound to be things that are unexplained. Why invent supernatural things to explain it? To me the SUPERNATURAL does NOT exist. Everything in our universe is a part of NATURE. We humans by tradition have always considered that which we don't understand (such as LIFE ITSELF) as to be a SUPERNATURAL thing. That which we create "synthetic" and unnatural. Where in REALITY. There is no such thing as supernatural. I think when my body dies, this sense of being and all the memories that are held within my body will be gone as well and I still think it's a beautiful thing.

So... do you believe in the soul? the idea that when you die.. your energy, spirit, soul, what have you continues to live and that your sense of being still thrives without your brain... just in another form?

I'll end with a Douglas Adams quote:

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"-Douglas Adams

:huh:
 

Spamtar

Ghost Monkey Soul
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
4,468
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I believe I have a soul but I am not sure if every other human does. Doesn't it seems like a lot of them are just ghost monkeys? As if too many people but not enough souls to go around.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm not sure what there is to say, it seems pretty basic at core:

The "soul" is a construct of some sort for which we have no evidence for or against.
How can we believe or disbelieve it?

In rational discourse, the soul (or the absence of it) can only ever be an assumption, not a given.

EDIT: Ghost Monkeys. I like that phrase. It sounds like it should be someone's username.
 

VYCanisMajoris

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
39
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
897?
Jennifer, like you, I call myself an agnostic so I almost should be open to thinking it's a possibility. However, the idea of "the soul" is a much simpler thing to define than God. God can have many meanings and take on many forms. It could be the universe itself, it could be a being who created the universe itself. It's a very broad term to the point of being vague.

I find the question "do you think you live on after your body dies" is much easier to agree or disagree with.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I don't think we can answer that question either.
It's all speculation.

We can choose to believe something, but that's different than knowing what will happen in the quantitative sense.
 

VYCanisMajoris

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
39
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
897?
Yeah, it's all speculation but i'm a sucker for speculation. I personally believe its similar to that time when you're asleep but not dreaming. Only zero brain activity. Maybe better described as what it was like and what you remember before you were conceived. Forevermore.

It's a beautiful thing.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I think speculation is wonderful too. :)

I just like to be very clear about what is speculation and what we can actually show/nail in place.

... curse of the realist idealist, ya know.
 

Stevo

New member
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
406
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
I do not believe we have souls. There is no physical evidence for the existence of a soul, and I am not a fan of doubtful waffling when it comes to silly supernatural beliefs such as these. When someone says "There's no evidence for or against" then I say "no" by default until I am shown otherwise.
 

fill

"Everything in its place"
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
507
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
753
When someone says "There's no evidence for or against" then I say "no" by default until I am shown otherwise.

Why would you take any side if we've found no evidence supporting either?

I have no evidence for or against the possibility of my dreams fulfilling in the future; should I say, "no, it won't happen," because in this case I would probably give up on my dreams and move to something else– if I'm not mistaken, that fits the model of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 

ZPowers

New member
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Messages
1,488
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Same position as God for me: I'm not 100% positive, but I sincerely doubt it.
 

Stevo

New member
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
406
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Why would you take any side if we've found no evidence supporting either?

Because I have better things to do with my time than worry about whether I have a soul or not. Saying there's no evidence "for or against" means there is no evidence, period. In my mind, that means that a belief in the proposition is not justified and therefore "No" is the appropriate answer until evidence does arrive. If I happen to be wrong, I will graciously accept that fact and change my beliefs accordingly. If I'm right, then I was justified in withholding my belief.

I have no evidence for or against the possibility of my dreams fulfilling in the future; should I say, "no, it won't happen," because in this case I would probably give up on my dreams and move to something else– if I'm not mistaken, that fits the model of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is not comparable to the discussion of whether or not souls exist. My non-belief in the existence of a soul does not create a self-fulfilling prophecy, unless you accept some silly form of physical relativism in which for those who believe in souls, souls exist, and for those who don't, there are no souls.

That aside, believing in my own goals and aspirations actually has an effect on my actions and my future state of being, as you have demonstrated. I find that the proposition of a soul is ultimately entirely meaningless to me. It makes absolutely no difference to me whether my soul exists or not. Learning that there are in fact souls that persist in us after death would do nothing to change how I think or behave.
 
L

Lasting_Pain

Guest
I always wondered what was that voice in my head. Maybe it could be my soul. I don't know. I think I would like to study the mind and the brain before I moveto the soul.
 

jcloudz

Yup
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
1,525
MBTI Type
Istj
do we have souls? i think this question might be in the catergorey with psychics, ghost and ufo`s. what do you guys think?
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
I believe in souls, but not in a factual way
 

VYCanisMajoris

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
39
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
897?
Why would you take any side if we've found no evidence supporting either?

I have no evidence for or against the possibility of my dreams fulfilling in the future; should I say, "no, it won't happen," because in this case I would probably give up on my dreams and move to something else– if I'm not mistaken, that fits the model of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

FSM!!! Where art thou?

Fil, I think that analogy is off a bit because your belief in your dreams directly affects the outcome. So it is healthy to make yourself believe positively. Whether Stevo believes in a soul or not doesn't affect the outcome and therefore there is no reason to think positively about it. Just realistically.

That said... do you believe in a FSM?

do we have souls? i think this question might be in the catergorey with psychics, ghost and ufo`s. what do you guys think?
I think souls are often related to beliefs of psychics. I think when someone starts relating UFOs to religion or the lives of humans my mind wanders elsewhere.

I believe in souls, but not in a factual way
Interesting... so... in a fictional way?
 

ocean

New member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
67sx
So... do you believe in the soul? the idea that when you die.. your energy, spirit, soul, what have you continues to live and that your sense of being still thrives without your brain... just in another form?

Science still has not explained subjective experience with all its paradoxes and mysteries

- where was I before I was born?
- what will happen after I die?
- where does the redness of red come from?
- is a zombie (functional human being without qualia) possible?
- how can a physical system create subjective experience?
- why do I experience mental events occurring inside one brain and not other brains (why am I this brain)?
- what does it mean to say "I am a certain physical system"?

and more.

We do not know whether science will ever be able to explain this topic. As things stand right now we don't have any evidence for or against reincarnation or any other sort of transmutation of the subjective experience.

The universe was already here for 13 billion years when this particular brain came into existence and with it what I now call my subjectivity. I came to exist from a state of non existence once. It could happen again.
 

Eye 'n' Teepee

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
55
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Science still has not explained subjective experience with all its paradoxes and mysteries

- where was I before I was born?
- what will happen after I die?
- where does the redness of red come from?
- is a zombie (functional human being without qualia) possible?
- how can a physical system create subjective experience?
- why do I experience mental events occurring inside one brain and not other brains (why am I this brain)?
- what does it mean to say "I am a certain physical system"?

and more.

We do not know whether science will ever be able to explain this topic. As things stand right now we don't have any evidence for or against reincarnation or any other sort of transmutation of the subjective experience.

The universe was already here for 13 billion years when this particular brain came into existence and with it what I now call my subjectivity. I came to exist from a state of non existence once. It could happen again.

Subjective consciousness to me is one of the most intriguing unanswered questions there is. But not having an answer to a question doesn't give license to invent a supernatural concept to explain it. Nobody knows the answer, so speculation is fine but that speculation should not be passed off as the "truth" (i.e. religion).
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
do we have souls? i think this question might be in the catergorey with psychics, ghost and ufo`s. what do you guys think?

I'm not sure why we feel the need to distinguish soul from body or mind. That's rather deconstructionist and was a conception of the Greeks. It's not even clear whether or not the Biblical Jews separated people into components like that, it seems they viewed them as whole beings.

And what would a soul be? we can at least make a case for a mind, even if it's an extension of some sort of the physical body (which is generally accepted to exist). The soul seems to be an indefinable, separately existing that has no attributes except that it lasts forever. I can't help but see it as something created in order to enable the notion of an afterlife/religion to work properly. (i.e, "If there is an eternal afterlife, and we know the body dies and rots away, and people stop thinking after we die, well, there must be SOME part that will stick around to make this work. Let's call it a soul.")
 
Top